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[Durante]

Apple does it, so MS copies. Convenience over control (ugh). I really don't like the direction MS is taking with this, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that people like you and me are in the minority.

I can accept (though not endorse) people preferring convenience over control, if they directly state (and realize) that.

What really gets me riled up is people arguing that they aren't actually really losing control, even though that is clearly the case.

Not close. Bifurcate.

Indeed. People really lack imagination if they think that totally stopping desktop support is the only way Microsoft can marginalize it in the future, and thus forcefully direct more purchases through their own ecosystem. Seriously, why wouldn't they? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

So he's siding with Gabe Newell, but isn't this certification process basically the same thing that Valve does throughout Steam?

Steam isn't much more open, but it's not integrated with the OS. Its certification process has also been repeatedly praised for its convenience compared to other platforms.

My grading for how much control you (as a consumer) lose goes like this:
HW, OS and distribution mechanisms controlled by a single corporate entity (Apple, Consoles)
is worse than
OS and distribution mechanisms controlled by a single corporate entity (Metro Apps)
is worse than
distribution mechanism controlled by a corporate entity (Steam)

Steam has the additional advantage of being owned by Valve, which is not a public company and thus has at least the faint possibility of acting benevolently.

 

[Opiate]

I think that you haven't made a credible argument on why Windows 8 is bad other than I heard in your head that it's bad with some games.

I don't agree with you or anyone else that is saying this is just the first step that Microsoft is going to cut out all apps that don't run in the windows store maybe it is but I don't think there's really any proof of that at the moment.

This is sort of a tough spot, though. I agree that there is no proof. However, I would also argue that it will be far too late to complain if we wait until the exact moment that it is unavoidably, explicitly clear that Microsoft is locking Windows down.

I'm not suggesting that you're clearly wrong, by the way. I'm instead saying that the answer isn't obvious to me. Basically we're discussing the value of alarms. Do you want an alarm that only goes off once a hurricane is actually destroying your city? Or do you want one that goes off the second the breeze blows lightly? Probably somewhere in between. I'd personally put our current situation in the "in between" stage, where there is reason to be alert and to make your voice heard, even if ultimately it wasn't needed and it turns out Microsoft isn't locking windows down after all.

 

[Xanonano]

And only granted because Microsoft has faced anti competitive lawsuits from browser manufacturers in the past.

And it can only be enabled for one browser (the default one) at a time. It's almost as if they tried to limit the functionality as much as possible to force developers to make Metro apps instead!

 

[Azih]

I'd personally put our current situation in the "in between" stage, where there is reason to be alert and to make your voice heard, even if ultimately it wasn't needed and it turns out Microsoft isn't locking windows down after all.

The crazy thing at this stage is that Windows 8 is just as open as Windows 7 is in that everything that you can do with Win 7 you can do with Win 8. Pounding on Windows 8 itself for what Windows 8+n *might* do for an undefined value of n is kind of ridiculous especially when the matter it's done in is spreading FUD.

 

[troushers]

Hyperbole much?

I do not see any reason why you can't:

1) provide a link to the marketplace within the game
2) use your existing account and password (steam, etc.)
3) have friends lists populated on the back end

Bzzt!

Windows 8 app certification requirements: 6.2

If your app provides a user with uncontrolled: (i) access to online social networks, or (ii)
[I]sharing of personal information with third parties, including other gamers or online 
acquaintances[/I], then you must assign it a Windows Store rating of at least 12+. For such 
activity to be considered "controlled", your app must include parental control features that 
require parental permission to use such sharing features, and you must identify those and 
explain their functionality in the Notes to testers.

Your "Discombobulated Avians" app is now rated 12+ and requires parental permission before little Johnny can download or use. Jump through the hoops, Johnny! Jump!

 

[Opiate]

I can accept (though not endorse) people preferring convenience over control, if they directly state (and realize) that.

What really gets me riled up is people arguing that they aren't actually really losing control, even though that is clearly the case.

Strongly agreed. Generally speaking I am fine with people preferring almost anything they want as long as they are honest about it. You can love Soap Operas if you want to, as long as you admit they're silly fun and don't try to convince me (or yourself) that they're actually very serious and important.

Indeed. People really lack imagination if they think that totally stopping desktop support is the only way Microsoft can marginalize it in the future, and thus forcefully direct more purchases through their own ecosystem. Seriously, why wouldn't they? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

Absolutely, anti-competitive behavior (and behavior generally) is far more subtle than some brute force "we will stop you from doing this entirely so we can win everything!" Even something as simple as including Internet Explorer in the installation of Windows offers a huge edge to Microsoft and has made it enormously difficult for other companies to compete, even if they had browsers as good or better than Microsoft's offering. Up until recently, IE had a monopoly for an extended period of time, despite MS never explicitly banning competitors.

Microsoft is in a position to frame consumer choice. I don't mean force consumer choice, I mean frame it in such a way that people are significantly more likely to choose X over Y, and it's a thing Microsoft has most definitely used to their advantage in the past. Explorer's edge came from how consumer choice was framed such that choosing a competitor's product was much less convenient.

 

[Lothars]

This is sort of a tough spot, though. I agree that there is no proof. However, I would also argue that it will be far too late to complain if we wait until the exact moment that it is unavoidably, explicitly clear that Microsoft is locking Windows down.

I'm not suggesting that you're clearly wrong, by the way. I'm instead saying that the answer isn't obvious to me. Basically we're discussing the value of alarms. Do you want an alarm that only goes off once a hurricane is actually destroying your city? Or do you want one that goes off the second the breeze blows lightly? Probably somewhere in between. I'd personally put our current situation in the "in between" stage, where there is reason to be alert and to make your voice heard, even if ultimately it wasn't needed and it turns out Microsoft isn't locking windows down after all.

I agree with you and I probably should be more leary of how microsoft seems to be pushing windows 8 with the metro apps.

Maybe it's just how I've become disfranchised with complaining on the internet since earlier this year and how the reactions to certain things seem to be overblown to me.

Microsoft is in a position to frame consumer choice. I don't mean force consumer choice, I mean frame it in such a way that people are significantly more likely to choose X over Y, and it's a thing Microsoft has most definitely used to their advantage in the past. Explorer's edge came from how consumer choice was framed such that choosing a competitor's product was much less convenient.

Yeah absolutely and I would say that's the thing we have to be kept watchful of compared to anything else since MS is a company that would restrict users without a second thought.

 

[Opiate]

I agree with you and I probably should be more leary of how microsoft seems to be pushing windows 8 with the metro apps.

Maybe it's just how I've become disfranchised with complaining on the internet since earlier this year and how the reactions to certain things seem to be overblown to me.

I think you're right that some people are blowing this out of proportion -- are sounding the alarm a little too loudly. I just wanted to emphasize that at least some alarm is probably reasonable, even if we shouldn't be screaming bloody murder about it quite yet.

 

[Lothars]

I think you're right that some people are blowing this out of proportion -- are sounding the alarm a little too loudly. I just wanted to emphasize that at least some alarm is probably reasonable, even if we shouldn't be screaming bloody murder about it quite yet.

I agree with you.

 

[Durante]

Microsoft is in a position to frame consumer choice. I don't mean force consumer choice, I mean frame it in such a way that people are significantly more likely to choose X over Y, and it's a thing Microsoft has most definitely used to their advantage in the past. Explorer's edge came from how consumer choice was framed such that choosing a competitor's product was much less convenient.

Exactly. They have the motive (sales percentage) and means (OS dominance) to give their own app store a huge advantage on the market. Previous experience with IE shows that they are certainly not adverse to doing so, even to an extent that has been determined to be anti-competitive. And yet there is apparently no reason for alarm.

 

[dragonelite]

Why do i always have a feeling when i hear a dev they ignore the current desktop
even more in win8 then ms does..

And for linux to succeed they need to fix these points.
Dont directly close the video is something to think about and see how much work valve has to do to make linux succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw

And with steam im stuck to ubuntu because of being the distro of valves choice.
Linux for me is a producer OS not a consumer OS.

I have totally no experience with Linux developement but i have heard the distro drama stories on the internet.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

I think you're right that some people are blowing this out of proportion -- are sounding the alarm a little too loudly. I just wanted to emphasize that at least some alarm is probably reasonable, even if we shouldn't be screaming bloody murder about it quite yet.

Agreed. Some of the points/concerns are really valid and we must be aware of them. However, what I really do not like is developers, who should be the most informed guys, spreading "the sky is falling" to the mass. A well written concern is welcome, but I guess a well written concern of a small alarm does not looks as cool and gets as much attention for that guys. So, basically, they are acting like attention whores.

 

[alexandros]

I'm a bit late this time, someone please fill me in: Have Microsoft apologists called this dev ignorant/biased/stupid/confused yet?

On a more serious note, it's great to see that more and more PC developers are speaking up against Microsoft's shady plans.

 

[Tain]

Absolutely, anti-competitive behavior (and behavior generally) is far more subtle than some brute force "we will stop you from doing this entirely so we can win everything!" Even something as simple as including Internet Explorer in the installation of Windows offers a huge edge to Microsoft and has made it enormously difficult for other companies to compete, even if they had browsers as good or better than Microsoft's offering. Up until recently, IE had a monopoly for an extended period of time, despite MS never explicitly banning competitors.

Microsoft is in a position to frame consumer choice. I don't mean force consumer choice, I mean frame it in such a way that people are significantly more likely to choose X over Y, and it's a thing Microsoft has most definitely used to their advantage in the past. Explorer's edge came from how consumer choice was framed such that choosing a competitor's product was much less convenient.

I think you're right that some people are blowing this out of proportion -- are sounding the alarm a little too loudly. I just wanted to emphasize that at least some alarm is probably reasonable, even if we shouldn't be screaming bloody murder about it quite yet.

These are good posts. I find myself rolling my eyes at a lot of the panic around Windows 8, but I think this makes perfect sense.

 

[derFeef]

I'm a bit late this time, someone please fill me in: Have Microsoft apologists called this dev ignorant/biased/stupid/confused yet?

On a more serious note, it's great to see that more and more PC developers are speaking up against Microsoft's shady plans.

"If" there are shady plans

 

[dragonelite]

I'm a bit late this time, someone please fill me in: Have Microsoft apologists called this dev ignorant/biased/stupid/confused yet?

On a more serious note, it's great to see that more and more PC developers are speaking up against Microsoft's shady plans.

Because this is a gaming forum what other fields of programming are complaining about win8 i do wonder all i really hear are game developers. And some tech site retelling gabe newells win8 quotes. The hate seems really isolated to the game industry. Not talking about the Metro UI startscreen hate that is a different beast altogether.

 

[denshuu]

"So I can't have tiles with live updates for programs that don't go through cert? This is an outrage. I'm sticking to Windows 7, where there aren't any tiles anyway."

Yeah, not getting too upset about this one. I'm more concerned about the UI being terrible on this notebook than I am about having the tiles for my games look different.

 

[cicero]

And they didn't.

Lessons learned.

BS. They absolutely did get away with it with their D.C. Circuit Court appeal and with the Court's BS ruling. It was only after that ruling that the DOJ decided to no longer seek to break up Microsoft. And the ruling didn't even overturn the findings of fact, which showed, as Judge Jackson stated afterwards, that MS executives "proved, time and time again, to be inaccurate, misleading, evasive, and transparently false . . . Microsoft is a company with an institutional disdain for both the truth and for rules of law that lesser entities must respect. It is also a company whose senior management is not averse to offering specious testimony to support spurious defenses to claims of its wrongdoing."

 

[segarr]

Ugh, people need to chill with all the FUD. Had me thinking at one point that ever application from CCleaner to Spotify had to first go through a Microsoft certification process!

I'm sure ones with an obvious agenda are just fine with that misunderstanding too.

I don't see why the hell MS can't have control over their own store.

 

[kodt]

You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!

Poor choice of words, even taken in context. I realize he was talking about Metro/live tile applications but then he makes this statement which is very misleading.

 

[venne]

Bzzt!

Windows 8 app certification requirements: 6.2

If your app provides a user with uncontrolled: (i) access to online social networks, or (ii)
[I]sharing of personal information with third parties, including other gamers or online 
acquaintances[/I], then you must assign it a Windows Store rating of at least 12+. For such 
activity to be considered "controlled", your app must include parental control features that 
require parental permission to use such sharing features, and you must identify those and 
explain their functionality in the Notes to testers.

Your "Discombobulated Avians" app is now rated 12+ and requires parental permission before little Johnny can download or use. Jump through the hoops, Johnny! Jump!

Seems like you are the one jumping through hoops at the moment.

It's an either/or proposition. Either you rate your application 12+ OR you include parental control features.

Try again.

 

[alexandros]

Ugh, people need to chill with all the FUD. Had me thinking at one point that ever application from CCleaner to Spotify had to first go through a Microsoft certification process!

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

"We are absolutely outraged that this game made for children must conform to MS' parental advisory rules!"

 

[troushers]

Seems like you are the one jumping through hoops at the moment.

It's an either/or proposition. Either you rate your application 12+ OR you include parental control features.

Try again.

Aaah, c'mon Venne. The point is, it would be simple to allow desktop apps similar 'live' tile functionality. They let browsers fake it, presumably because they're afraid of Google etc. poking the EU into fury. There is no technical reason to disallow it, and there is no reason to have to comply with the Windows 8 certification prime directives. Laziness doesn't come into it.

 

[Mavromatis]

""You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!""

that doesn't say to download a METRO application does it

he implies that all apps go thorugh this stupid process which is wrong

I think with Windows 8 application means the software working on Metro UI and the desktop software is called just software. I know that this new terminology is confusing but it's pretty much set now.

And with the new system Metro UI applications can't communicate with Desktop. It's clearly forbidden by MS certification system. So a live tile for a game that isn't an application, a small casual game like Jetpack Joyride or Angry Birds, is impossible. If however you can manage to start your app in 5 seconds and suspend in 2 and fitting the touch interaction, meaning user can drag your window down, right and left, having hotspots working all the time, you can release a game on Windows Store as a Metro application.

They let browsers fake it, presumably because they're afraid of Google etc. poking the EU into fury. There is no technical reason to disallow it, and there is no reason to have to comply with the Windows 8 certification prime directives. Laziness doesn't come into it.

I didn't see any browser faking a live tile, which one are you talking about?

 

[saltywalrus]

I'm worried that MS could pull some kind of exclusive feature to force developers use the Windows Store, something like only Certified Apps can make use of DX12 features.

Windows Store apps already have lots of exclusive features. You just don't know about them.

"I think that this is very important as there are "under the hood" motions related to Windows 8 that are hidden and not well understood even by many developers (yet), and certainly not by most gamers."

WinRT has lots improvements in touch, security, resolution scaling, power management, etc. These exist today and are not coming to desktop.

 

[Mavromatis]

I didn't see any browser faking a live tile, which one are you talking about?

I reread the thread and I think what people are talking about is Chrome.
I must say that there is two Chromes on Windows 8, with totally different profiles. Same goes for IE10 but I'm not using it so can't say how different both versions are.
Chrome doesn't have a live tile, it just have a tile. It has a metro application and a desktop application. And you can use both at the same time.