Delusibeta
Banned
ITT: Microsoft employees astroturfing. There is no acceptable argument against "Microsoft adding a walled garden and making plenty of noises they intend to get rid of the desktop is a bad thing".
Alen Ladavac, Croteam's CTO, comments on Windows 8
- Thread starter angular graphics
- Start date
It's up to the devs isn't it? The company making the OS always has control of what they want to put into it. If the developers put games that could very well compete with Steam onto the store and that leads to consumer buying stuffs from the Windows Store instead of somewhere else, naturally the market will shift to the Windows Store and it will grow. If they don't put anything on there, even with people installing Windows 8, they aren't forced to only get games from the Windows Store and that shouldn't be the default behavior of most people.
Now why would the developers want to put their games on the Windows Store? For more exposure? Better control? Or just because Microsoft paid them money to do so? If the Windows Store carries more benefit than downsides, than people will naturally gravitate to it. If it doesn't, then it'll just be a secondary or tertiary source for games.
I don't see why you guys cling so much to the open model when whatever most beneficial to the consumer (call them dumb or whatever) will naturally prosper. Maybe you feel threatened by the changes? Well that's just how things roll, man. Stupid consumers.
plagiarize
Banned
I'm sorry, I thought we were extrapolating based on past experiences. I'm sure Windows 8 apps will run on Windows 9, but I doubt Windows 9 apps will run on Windows 8, certainly not if we're talking about a closed system. They'll need everyone to want to upgrade to a system that doesn't support desktop titles. You talked about install base before. Won't they need the desktop install base to go away? Won't Windows 8 users be part of that install base?
How will Microsoft make developers stop releasing 'desktop games' if there's still a massive desktop install base? Why would someone with Windows 8 that still relies on any piece of desktop software upgrade to Windows 9 if they can run all the Windows 9 apps on Windows 8? Why wouldn't they keep buying desktop software that appealed to them, as a Windows 8 owner?
How do you get ANY Steam user to drop windows 8 and to stop buying games from Valve?
If you aren't going to name names, please take your accusations and leave. I can only speak for myself here, but generally I do not dispute that Microsoft would like to force all software through their store and to make mondo money, I just openly acknowledge that they don't have the power to do this. Just as they didn't have the power to makes us all pay to play online, which they'd also obviously like.
Moral Panic
Member
Him saying this is really dumb. I mean seriously? How the hell are having rules of expected behaviour "a broken concept"?
I fully agree, that not allowing Metro apps on Win 8 desktop is dumb and wrong but when people say dumb stuff it really sidetracks from their arguments.
No it is not, they could not cut it off like that without people already using the replacement in someway.
Just because the old way is still around in the first version with the new way does not mean anything good.
It adds time, cost and gives nothing in return.
It is also a path way for MS to block any program they don't like.
Decreased game performance is complete nonsense, almost an outright lie.
Faster OS performance, faster boot time, fantastic resource management, brilliant multitasking system and zero issue with any games I play (BF3, Civ 5, Dishonoured etc).
Many sites have run benchmarks and have found that game performance remains the same.
Move forward or be left behind, MS had to move forward ... Especially with the push for a common UI across all devices.
You forgot the point where they said that those rules may change in the future.
That was never the case with Windows. Never. MS never had control on the software that could run on PCs. This is the whole point of contention.
Windows 8 is not noticeably faster than 7, that faster boot time is because it does not do a full shutdown by default and a lot of games do have issues.
A push for a common UI lead by idiots!
Different human interfaces need different software interfaces!
Do you have a list of games that have issues? Any game old or new I have tried on Windows 8 worked just fine.
Hyperbole much?
I do not see any reason why you can't:
1) provide a link to the marketplace within the game
2) use your existing account and password (steam, etc.)
3) have friends lists populated on the back end
4) provide a launch desktop application button within the application
Lazy devs, etc.
Unfortunately the Apple app store happened.
Personally, if I were intending to transition from 'desktop' to 'metro':
- windows +1 (introduces metro, moves desktop to "less prefered/native").
- windows +2 (moves desktop into compatibility mode, moves all new functionality into metro - i.e. "DX13 - windows 8 certified apps only").
- windows +3 (metro only).
MS are not a charity, they don't exist to make money for steam/EA et al, they exist to make money for their shareholders... and moving to a metro-only, MS-shop only model would be hugely profitable for them. (i.e. MS could even afford to make windows +2 "free", if they could guarantee a 1-5% cut of all software sales on that platform).
There's an obvious regulatory problem, but iTunes may be a sign that regulators are either unwilling or unable to fight this. (if MS were to lose this regulatory battle, the fallout would appear to be catastrophic to Apple).
Sho_Nuff82
Member
If pointing out speculation and blatantly misleading statements makes me the equivalent of a "MS employee", what does that make people constructing weak-as-shit ad hominem attacks? If you have nothing to add to the discussion, the door is that way.
Edit: TheD, I'm going to need to see some sources on the game performance stuff.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Yeah, I'd like to see a list too before I bother installing it.
I know why MS is doing this. I just don't agree with it.
I see your point.
Microsoft is just moving where the market is heading, the Apple app store certainly didn't stop developers from making games for it.
I did not say anything about performance, I said that games do have issues (not all, but some).
I came across a bunch of games that have known problems running in windows 8 over the last week or so when searching for some other things.
I never claimed to have a list.
This is the same company that thought that it could get away with all it's anti trust crimes in the 90s.
plagiarize
Banned
We're just looking for specifics. Which games? What issues?
Do you have links to the issues? what games? any specifics?
I will have to go looking in my search history, something I really don't feel like doing for the people in this thread.
Not close. Bifurcate.
plagiarize
Banned
you can't remember the names of any of the games? why should I take anything you say seriously if you aren't prepared to lift a finger to back it up?
Yeah, I can't say if Windows 8 was worth the purchase or not. I mean with Start 8 I load into the desktop and barely use Metro at all. The only thing I use Metro for are video apps. Like I can go right into the ABC Player from Metro instead of using their website, or launch Netflix and Hulu as well. Oh yeah and occasionally play Jetpack Joyride. Windows 8 is basically Windows 7++ for me, and sometimes I completely forget Metro exists when I boot my PC.
They will never do that. Anyone who thinks this will happen on the desktop is delusional. The desktop enviroment will always exist so they can try and avoid anti-trust lawsuits.
The whole point of this seems to be making the transition to future Windows tablet OS's easier for consumers, while also trying to emulate iOS's walled garden success.
The way I see it, the Metro enviroment is just the facade on the new Microsoft store. If you see a tile in front of you, whether on the Windows 8 or RT, you're actually in the store. There's just no escaping it.
If I remember well, most games using Games for Windows Live (pretty ironic, huh?) don't work properly. I remember this from the Halloween Steam sales where people were having issues with Bioshock 2.
So... because I do not want to spend time searching around my web history at 1:52 in the morning I will not be taken seriously by a bunch of people on the net, that among other things cherry pick bits of text from a dev, don't understand that shortcuts in one place does not mean that the place is an open environment, abuse devs, call people paranoid, think that removing everything the PC is good because of is OK ect...................
I THINK I AM OK WITH THAT
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I think people were solving GFWL game issues by installing the GFWL client which isn't always forced.
That's the GFWL client I think, Win 8 itself should not make any issues. This client will be obsoelte with new GFWL games afaik.
plagiarize
Banned
thank you. I haven't tried any GFWL titles out since upgrading, but i'll be sure to do some research before I do. hopefully Stallion is right about it just needing a reinstall of the client.
plagiarize
Banned
wait wait wait wait... who abused devs? who thinks removing everything the pc is good because of is OK?
you love to throw out non-specifics don't you.
You need to take a look at what you have contributed with in this thread. You have multiple times insulted other peoples intellectuality because they do not agree on your ranting on the future of Windows.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Are people really that paranoid that Microsoft will close the desktop off in favor of an all apps through the Windows store strategy? Really!? I mean sure, they'd probably love to get a cut of every app sold but I'm also sure they're well aware they couldn't get away with that. Why would anyone upgrade to a Windows that couldn't use the majority of the desktop applications they already own?
The main reason for the store is leverage in the tablet market. Why develop apps for a tablet OS with a low user base? Because those apps are also accessible to everyone with Windows 8 desktops. It's a way to encourage more apps for their tablet market. Again, I'm sure they'd love for everyone using desktops to only use Metro apps but I'm pretty sure that won't be the case and I'm pretty sure that they're not dumb enough to lock that entire market out with the next Windows.
The main reason for the store is leverage in the tablet market. Why develop apps for a tablet OS with a low user base? Because those apps are also accessible to everyone with Windows 8 desktops. It's a way to encourage more apps for their tablet market. Again, I'm sure they'd love for everyone using desktops to only use Metro apps but I'm pretty sure that won't be the case and I'm pretty sure that they're not dumb enough to lock that entire market out with the next Windows.
You're devaluing exclamations.
CosmicQueso
Member
I was thinking the same thing. I installed Win8 but then threw Start8 on top of it because I wanted a Start button, and now I just have it boot right to the desktop.
There's no need to use Metro or the App Store. None. And if MS wants to push consumers away by doing all of the draconian things people are flipping out about let them. If your enemy (in this case, Microsoft, for these devs and users flipping out) is making mistakes, don't interrupt them.
As for my experience, it's a faster booting Windows 7. And I guess that's... okay.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
100% not true, grade A, lie.
Chiaroscuro
Member
There is not a single line that cannot be labeled at least misleading for the normal guy reading it:
Not true. You can have a tile of your application pinned to the metro desktop no matter from where the app is installed. Devs can make it automatically as well. You cannot: 1) make a "Live" (motion) tile; 2) make a "metro" application without distributing it through MS store. But 1) and 2) does not mean you cannot make/distribute any kind of application to Windows 8 users, just that devs cannot use "fancy" things that are bring by Windows 8 anyway (that they would not have in case Win8 did not exist). And to they you the truth, both points are very superfluous right now.
Wrong again, unless he means "metro" applications. And if he means, it also proves my point, which is to confuse the normal joe reading.
Wrong, this is valid only for the "Xbox Games" brand. You can release your game as a normal (indie) game and do not follow any MS standard, can patch it anyday (like the developers of the great game Armed! choose to).
Need I say something? the [*] over there is just to say that the issue was already solved and this point is worthless, why to bring it again to the table?
Only in Xbox Games, you can do whatever you want in the other games.
[/Quote]They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. [/Quote]
Speculation, speculation.
Again, only for the Xbox brand games. You can do whatever you want if you publish your game in the Windows 8 Store as a normal game. Just see what the Armed! team has done (they do, you just complain).
While a valid point and concern, it is too much speculation.
Again, extensive certification and patch control is just an issue if you want a Xbox brand game. Do whatever you want. If you want the exposure the brand Xbox brings to your game, follow the rules of the brand owner.
Chiaroscuro
Member
Forget it, they will never listen to you. If Gabe/Ladavac/anyone else says that Bill Gates is a witch in disguise, they will start a witch hunt.
Funny that those devs are also partners with MS in some way or others.
I think that you haven't made a credible argument on why Windows 8 is bad other than I heard in your head that it's bad with some games.
I don't agree with you or anyone else that is saying this is just the first step that Microsoft is going to cut out all apps that don't run in the windows store maybe it is but I don't think there's really any proof of that at the moment.
"it looks more and more like" is the operative sentence in that rant as it's followed by nothing but speculation.
I mean lord, permit me to bold the phrases:
Look at that sentence, express the concern on the possibility that probably in an upcoming windows or something like that something bad may very well happen.
It's obviously TIME TO PANIC.
unrenowned
Member
So he's siding with Gabe Newell, but isn't this certification process basically the same thing that Valve does throughout Steam?
Barkley's Justice
Member
It's a hot mess. And here I was hopeful MS would relent a bit on "Xbox 720" and give up some of the control they wield (especially in regards to certification process). Judging by W8, that's not going to happen at all.
And maybe it's for the better. The closed "console" experience is becoming less and less appealing to me. Especially in the wake of the iOS App Store. The argument used to be: MS, Sony, etc need the review & certification process to ensure games work great across devices. And true, Apple plays a "Gate Keeper" of sorts and lowers and closes a toll bridge for apps to pass through. But there's no crazy certification process and everything is fine over there; developers handle what needs to be handled. There's no hand-holding or chaperoning. Anyone even remotely familiar with QA, ratings or cert knows how crazy a process it is. And one need only look at the whole Fez debacle in regards to MS & its patching process to know what bull$hit that is.
I'm tempted to say good riddance.
And maybe it's for the better. The closed "console" experience is becoming less and less appealing to me. Especially in the wake of the iOS App Store. The argument used to be: MS, Sony, etc need the review & certification process to ensure games work great across devices. And true, Apple plays a "Gate Keeper" of sorts and lowers and closes a toll bridge for apps to pass through. But there's no crazy certification process and everything is fine over there; developers handle what needs to be handled. There's no hand-holding or chaperoning. Anyone even remotely familiar with QA, ratings or cert knows how crazy a process it is. And one need only look at the whole Fez debacle in regards to MS & its patching process to know what bull$hit that is.
I'm tempted to say good riddance.
And only granted because Microsoft has faced anti competitive lawsuits from browser manufacturers in the past.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
No certification on Steam is like nonexistent compared to MS.