Chuckie
Member
Yeah, if you live in the country. If you live in a city...it is pretty diverse.
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
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Yeah, if you live in the country. If you live in a city...it is pretty diverse.
And saying it's racist doesn't also make it racist.
And from an American standpoint I can totally understand that you guys think it's racist because it's blackface and all... but we didn't have that in the same way you had. We don't have the same racial problems you guys had...
Those are not in any way indicative of any broad opposition to Zwarte Piet. In the Internet age, any opinion can find a podium, even those well outside the mainstream.
I can make it easy for you and use an American analogy: Thanksgiving.
A much-cherished North American tradition that is celebrated with those most dear to you. Often seen as a quintessential part of American cultural heritage, a time-honoured tradition passed down from the Pilgrims. Yet, for some Amerindians it is highly offensive, as it commemorates the beginning of European settlement in North America and thus the destruction of Amerindian cultures.
Now, is Thanksgiving about the eradication of Amerindians? Of course not, not to the vast majority of Americans who see it merely as a family festivity (especially if they leave out the Pilgrim elements). But there's no denying it can indeed be seen as such, when looked at from a different, minority perspective.
Similarly, Zwarte Piet can certainly be seen as racist and within American culture he clearly is. But that's not what Zwarte Piet signifies for Dutch people, not even for most black Dutch. For them it's merely a children's festivity and the exact origin of the imagery does not matter; it is inconsequential to the purpose and intentions of the Sinterklaas festivity, much like the ultimate consequences of the First Thanksgiving are not part of that festivity.
Well put sir. You have proved yourself a voice of reason multiple times in this thread to me
Dude Abides
Banned
Most Amercans don't think about the Dutch at all unless they are college students trying to find a spot to smoke weed and fuck prostitutes on spring break.
And judging by the nonsense you posted about Native Americans and Thanksgiving, the Dutch know nothing about American culture either.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Interesting. I have yet to be impressed. All I see is non-equivalent moral relativism and intellectual dishonesty. But carry on.Well put sir. You have proved yourself a voice of reason multiple times in this thread to me
These depictions aren't American issues. You continuing to say it doesn't make it so and dilutes your argument.
Can you not accept the racist origin of the character design? Can you not understand the elements that were selected to create the character and why? Do you think it coincidence that many of those images are found there and elsewhere in Europe and America?
That really doesnt mean anything. 'Multicultural' by your standards probably means austrian, danish, russian, ukrainian, swedish etc.
In which case the KKK must be multicultural as fuck.
Well they aren't Dutch issues. So stop projecting them on us.
I accept the racist origins. But that doesn't mean they are prevalent today. Because they aren't.
Chuckie
Member
Lol.... can you really finish that list of 177 with just European countries? Please....try.
Try what. Prove that New York has more visible minorities than Amsterdam? Youre the only one that will disagree so I dont think its worth it.
Dude Abides
Banned
I was in Amsterdam last year. I live in New York. As far as racial diversity goes, New York makes Amsterdam look like an Aryan Nation meeting.
Chuckie
Member
No, you saw the list, and started naming European countries as counting 'diversity' as a means to make the numbers bigger. What do you mean by 'visible minorities' btw? Do you mean New York has more 'visible, distinguishable colored' people than Amsterdam?
Please eleborate what you meant by saying ''Multicultural' by your standards probably means austrian, danish, russian, ukrainian, swedish etc', because we still have 177 in Amsterdam.
Do tell me, I'd like to know.
Thats because of all of you tourists. More than half of the inhabitants of Amsterdam are not ethnically Dutch
Goldrusher
Member
You're not multicultural.
We have the most nationalities of any city in the world.
Yeah, but everyone is white.
...
Who's the racist here?
We have the most nationalities of any city in the world.
Yeah, but everyone is white.
...
Who's the racist here?
http://www.os.amsterdam.nl/pdf/2010_jaarboek_hoofdstuk_01.pdf
From 2010:
385k native Dutch
114k from "western" countries
268k from "non-western" countries
Aw come on, guys. Let's not do this diversity dick measuring bullshit. The "Let Me Explain It To You Other Countries" bullshit is what gives Americans a bad name to begin with.
If you disagree with Black Peter (which I've said multiple times I do), do it. But what's the point of this "Nuh uh my country knows how to do it better" crap? It just takes the argument away from its original, rational discussion.
If you disagree with Black Peter (which I've said multiple times I do), do it. But what's the point of this "Nuh uh my country knows how to do it better" crap? It just takes the argument away from its original, rational discussion.
Yes. Otherwise dreams-visions post still holds true.
"A culture that, perhaps, could use a little more diversity because it seems incapable of self-checking and correcting these kinds of easy-to-fix issues."
If you had 1 person from 300 different countries does that make you twice as multicultural?
European decent is pretty much one category.
Chuckie
Member
Lol. Did you not see the numbers posted above? You can be all cute with your '1 person from 300 countries' but the numbers say otherwise.
We dont have a city with 6.999.832 white people and 177 people of other ethnicity, we have a city in which more than half is from a different ethnicity, so your argument really doesn't hold up.
lmao...you really didn't take a look at the numbers did you. Pro-tip: Inform yourself before making a statement.
Big Baybee
Member
Thread has taken an interesting turn......
Devolution
Member
If it's just soot what's with the fro and lipstick? That's classic blackface.
If it's just soot why are his clothes so clean?
Devolution
Member
Dude so many white people there that aren't even ethnically dutch, okay.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Clothes go in the bag before they go down the chimney.
NOT NUDE, their underwear is dirty.
Dreams-Visions
Member
THIS IS
Goldrusher
Member
In America lots of culture means lots of black people.
In America lots of black people means lots of black people. What's the point of this conversation, it's racist regardless of how many black people exist in the Netherlands or the U.S.
Awesome. Now try to explain this to Serbs and Croats. That Nobel peace prize is as good as won!
It's interesting seeing the attitude that culture and skin colour are synonymous. Also the deliberate interchange between multi-racial and multi-cultural.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I'm watching in delight as the goalposts move and dissonance increases and shift with every post.
I imagine you as a young child, crying with his ears covered after finding out that cartoon isn't real.
Carry on. It's amusing. If you shout "LALALALALALALALA" loud enough the bad people and the thread will disappear.
As a dutch person, I will agree with the fact that it has severe racist undertones and roots. Nobody can deny this.
But all I can say is that it's genuinely not viewed that way over here. People are genuinely so accustomed to the way it is that they just look through these stupid outfits and try to make their children happy.
There's no group of grinning old white men who wring their hands while watching the blackfaced men dance. It's just a stupid tradition aimed solely towards children that we would do well to phase out, and no-one would bat an eye if we did.
But all I can say is that it's genuinely not viewed that way over here. People are genuinely so accustomed to the way it is that they just look through these stupid outfits and try to make their children happy.
There's no group of grinning old white men who wring their hands while watching the blackfaced men dance. It's just a stupid tradition aimed solely towards children that we would do well to phase out, and no-one would bat an eye if we did.
Kiraly
Member
You have such legitimate discussion tactics, bravo.
Why are you still schooling us young intelligent men at your surgery whatever goes beyond me.
........
Alright well then.
Population of Amsterdam -820,654
Population of New York City - 8,244,910
Let's break it down.
Puerto Rican: (778,628)
Dominican: (602,093)
Mexican: (289,755)
Ecuadorian: (201,708)
Colombian: (113,469)
So if we're talking about diversity the top two there already easily surpass the entire population of Amsterdam.
Italian: 8.2% (684,230)
Irish: 5.3% (443,364)
German: 3.6% (296,901)
Russian: 3.1% (260,821)
Polish: 2.8% (237,919)
English: 1.9% (160,472)
Greek: 1.0% (83,575)
French: 0.9% (73,587)
Hungarian: 0.7% (59,225)
Ukrainian: 0.6% (49,643)
Portuguese: 0.5% (46,384)
Scottish: 0.5% (41,787)
Scotch-Irish: 0.3% (28,770)
Dutch: 0.3% (24,776)
Norwegian: 0.3% (24,737)
Swedish: 0.3% (22,206)
Hmm. I was going to go farther but your point is already proven that yes, just a lot of black people.
I am not arguing because I really don't care about which is more diverse, but you should compare absolute numbers but relative numbers... The city of New York is about half the size of the Netherlands or something so absolute numbers are bs.
If going by percentages you'd still be wrong.
New York is more racially diverse than Amsterdam. Same with Toronto. I wouldn't be surprised if LA was too.
freenudemacusers
Member
Where did the blackface er I mean zwarte Piet avatar go?!
Chuckie
Member
lol...are you really comparing absolutive figures with relative figures? Please tell me you are not that dumb.
Did you actually look at the numbers or did you think it was really cool to drop into this topic and just say something?
Can we skip the blackface next year please?
Ruud_Luiten
Member
All kids wants to be Zwarte Piet. Everyone of them, they love them.
How is that racist?
How is that racist?
Arjen
Member
why couldn't they just get a black guy to play the part
yeah, its tradition, but men used to play all the parts in theatre, even the women parts
My black friend plays as a zwarte Piet every year, I should tell him how racist he is.
dat false equivalency.
freenudemacusers
Member
Too easy
Ruud_Luiten
Member
It is?
Being positive about a person / type is racist.
In 2012 every fucking thing is racist.....
you forgot the part about its historically racist origins.
Devolution
Member
What do you mean. Moroccans and Turkey rank the highest below some African Nation. I come from places where there are huge ethnic populations of black, asian, and latino all in the same place. Sorry Ams isn't that diverse.
freenudemacusers
Member
I remember playing cowboys and railroad chinese workers with my friends, I loved playing the the Chinese worker with the buck teeth and slanty eyes!
It's amazing to me how nations that don't even have basic national healthcare, legalised gay marriage and are still heavily opposing women getting abortions can presume to judge other nations on their traditions.
What exactly makes you so qualified to judge this one childrens tradition of another nation and culture you know nothing about, when your own is arguably so flawed still?
What exactly makes you so qualified to judge this one childrens tradition of another nation and culture you know nothing about, when your own is arguably so flawed still?
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