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[itsgreen]

Cartoonish caricatures of minority races are racist. Please, post here the first images of Zwarte Piet, which all of you acknowledge were depicting blacks and post a picture of the modern rendition of Zwarte Piet who is supposedly no longer representative of any living human race. Please point out how the imagery has changed. What began as a racist caricature has remained completely intact.

As an optional question. Aside from clothing what specific traits characterize the "Sinterklaas look". What do you need to look like to pass off as Sinterklass.

Next, tell me, aside from clothing, are the specific traits needed to look like "Zwarte Piet"?

They look for a large part the same. But like I said the meaning given to the look is totally different now than it was in 1820 or something.

It's very specific. Basically the one you see in the OP. Zwarte Piet? Well considering that 90% of his body is covered in clothes, it's blackface, or more precise brown face.

Note that that isn't perceived as racist in The Netherlands.

 

[Jackben]

And I like how the Dutch posters in here are claiming everyone is okay with this and it's only Americans trying to force you to change. Did you not watch the video in the OP? Are those not Dutch who are against the depiction of Zwarte Piet? There are even Black Dutch there which are in protest of the image. Do you just not care what they think?

 

[Chuckie]

No one here has claimed or is claiming the US doesn't have a race problem. We do, and it is know and talked about plenty. But that's not the subject of this thread. S no, it's not hypocritical at all.

Try again. Less strawmen please.

Oh the strawmen argument again. That becomes really boring.

So how about the second part of my post. You seem to have forgotten that part.

 

[Overdoziz]

We all know they're black because they fell down the chimney!

 

[Rei_Toei]

And I like how the Dutch posters in here are claiming everyone is okay with this and it's only Americans trying to force you to change. Did you not watch the video in the OP? Are those not Dutch who are against the depiction of Zwarte Piet? There are even Black Dutch there which are in protest of the image. Do you just not care what they think?

We care about them sure. Just about as much as you care about the opinions of the Westboro baptist church members - just a guestimate when it comes to the size of the two groups.

 

[itsgreen]

And I like how the Dutch posters in here are claiming everyone is okay with this and it's only Americans trying to force you to change. Did you not watch the video in the OP? Are those not Dutch who are against the depiction of Zwarte Piet? There are even Black Dutch there which are in protest of the image. Do you just not care what they think?

I can probably make a video of people holding up signs about any, literally ANY, subject. That doesn't make it a huge social problem. Or even an issue.

 

[Jackben]

Oh the strawmen argument again. That becomes really boring.

So how about the second part of my post. You seem to have forgotten that part.

What you are doing is a strawman technique, whether you recognize that or not. But I will cede that the article about the Dutch woman referring to Rhianna as "niggerbitch" was not particularly relevant. It was an observation that a lot of what I read/hear about the Dutch in press seems to reflect an uncaring attitude in regards to what people find racist or offensive. But we are talking about Zwarte Piet specifically and you are right, it is wrong to paint all Dutch with the same brush just based on what I've seen.

 

[Goldrusher]

So many racists:

Pictures from the Sint's arrival at Antwerp this afternoon.

 

[Zabka]

Maybe not 'relevant' but surely really hypocritical. It's a bit odd to bring up Dutch colonialism and the effects it had on the African continent without stopping to think what you did to your own continent and its inhabitants.

And it's not just that.... a few pages ago someone posted an article...from 1 girl calling Rihanna a 'niggabitch' as an example of how racist the Dutch are.

Should I know post all those tweets of these last weeks...saying 'Obama should be hanged, that we don't want a nigger in the white house'.. to 'prove' how racist Americans are?

I know better than that.... that not all Americans are like that... so why bring up an article of one person (who lost her job over that) to prove a point?

America has tons of horribly racist people. It's a huge problem and there's a couple recent threads on it on this board. If you want to talk about it those are a good place to start.

But it seems like you just want to point at someone else and say "they're bad too!"

 

[Log4Girlz]

They look for a large part the same. But like I said the meaning given to the look is totally different now than it was in 1820 or something.

It's very specific. Basically the one you see in the OP.

It started racist and was an ugly, oafish depiction of a black person. That hasn't changed. Nothing has changed but the reasoning behind what is indisputably racist imagery.

Taken today.

Do you see that child? All you need is one hat and BAM. Perfect Zwarte Piet. Apart from clothing, their ethnic appearance is almost all they need.

Is the man below Sinterklaas? He needs a long beard. Being white isn't enough. Perhaps the papal style hat will do. But would still be a poor replacement if you do not have a beard. If you dressed as Sinterklaas without a beard any other time in the year, people would be confused as to what you were trying to depict. While any black person in a moorish style hat will do. They'll never be confused with any other character any other time of the year. There is a tremendous difference in the specificity of the character, because Zwarte Piet was a caricature of blacks in general.

What if the the person trying to depict Zwarte Piet was a black female? Again, just need a hat. As long as you're black and have the hat, good Piet costume.

What if the person trying to depict Sinterklaas was a woman? Well then you MUST have the beard and papal attire, or it could be very confusing.

Apart from clothing Zwarte can be any black person.

Edit: Job time, gotta go. Will be back way later.

 

[Jackben]

We care about them sure. Just about as much as you care about the opinions of the Westboro baptist church members - just a guestimate when it comes to the size of the two groups.

You clarified your statement to mean you are basing it on the size of the two groups, but if you meant to equalize them based on size you could have picked a different movement.

As it stands it sounds like you mean to say that the people who are finding Zwarte Piet offensive, blacks included, are no better than the people who are in the Westboro Baptist church.

 

[Log4Girlz]

So many racists:

Pictures from the Sint's arrival at Antwerp this afternoon.

So many black underlings.

 

[Rei_Toei]

It started racist and was an ugly, oafish depiction of a black person. That hasn't changed. Nothing has changed but the reasoning behind what is indisputably racist imagery.



Do you see that child? All you need is one hat and BAM. Perfect Zwarte Piet. Apart from clothing, their ethnic appearance is almost all they need.

Is the man below Sinterklaas? He needs a long beard. Being white isn't enough. Perhaps the papal style hat will do. But would still be a poor replacement if you do not have a beard. If you dressed as Sinterklaas without a beard any other time in the year, people would be confused as to what you were trying to depict. While any black person in a moorish style hat will do. They'll never be confused with any other character any other time of the year. There is a tremendous difference in the specificity of the character, because Zwarte Piet was a caricature of blacks in general.

What if the the person trying to depict Zwarte Piet was a black female? Again, just need a hat. As long as you're black and have the hat, good Piet costume.

What if the person trying to depict Sinterklaas was a woman? Well then you MUST have the beard and papal attire, or it could be very confusing.

Apart from clothing Zwarte can be any black person.

Edit: Job time, gotta go. Will be back way later.

Wouldn't it be racist if only black people could portray Zwarte Piet?

 

[Jackben]

I can probably make a video of people holding up signs about any, literally ANY, subject. That doesn't make it a huge social problem. Or even an issue.

It not an issue to know there are Black and White Dutch who find your traditionally racist mascot offensive.

Welp.

 

[Scipius]

so that Dutch culture can be brought into the 21st Century?

This I find highly amusing. An American asking for a culture that has adopted gay marriage, semi-legalised cannabis and universal healthcare in the 20th century to be brought into the 21st? American society is in many ways still catching up to standards long since commonplace in Dutch society.

If your aim is to portray Dutch culture as backwards, you might want to reconsider.

 

[Rei_Toei]

You clarified your statement to mean you are basing it on the size of the two groups, but if you meant to equalize them based on size you could have picked a different movement.

As it stands it sounds like you mean to say that the people who are finding Zwarte Piet offensive, blacks included, are no better than the people who are in the Westboro Baptist church.

WBC is said to have between 25-60 members. Biggest protest against zwarte piet in the Netherlands so far involved less then 10 people. I guess I should've picked an even smaller group, yeah.

 

[Stet]

So many racists:

Pictures from the Sint's arrival at Antwerp this afternoon.

How many slaves does this fucker have?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Wouldn't it be racist if only black people could portray Zwarte Piet?

This is an old, and very flawed argument. There are some kinds of imagery that yes, only members of the race depicted are allowed to participate in.


One last thing before I go. Why does Zwarte Piet have to depicted as dark skin, even if his race is supposedly not a feature and Sinterklaas must be depicted as light skinned. Why does Sinterklaas HAVE to be white above all else? We can take the race away from Piet, again, you happily remove that aspect from him, since the black race aspect is not important, but cannot take it away from Sinterklaas? Why is his white race sacrosanct?

 

[Chuckie]

What you are doing is a strawman technique, whether you recognize that or not. But I will cede that the article about the Dutch woman referring to Rhianna as "niggerbitch" was not particularly relevant. It was an observation that a lot of what I read/hear about the Dutch in press seems to reflect an uncaring attitude in regards to what people find racist or offensive. But we are talking about Zwarte Piet specifically and you are right, it is wrong to paint all Dutch with the same brush just based on what I've seen.

Well they're not that uncaring otherwise the girl wouldn't have lost her job.

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad, when I was six he was the guy who handed out the candy.
Over the years they have removed the 'punishing' element, and I think they can, and should, remove the racial element.
I can honestly tell you that growing up, I thought he was black because of the chimney, bu tlooking at him now it is clear he is a Moor.
My suggestion (which no one gives a fuck about ) would be to slowly remove racial elements. Next year, no more red lips, the year after that no more curly hair, the year after that really obvious black smudges on the face...to make it look like ashes, not skincolour. But thats just my two cents.

 

[Jackben]

This I find highly amusing. An American asking for a culture that has adopted gay marriage, semi-legalised cannabis and universal healthcare in the 20th century to be brought into the 21st? American society is in many ways still catching up to standards long since commonplace in Dutch society.

If your aim is to portray Dutch culture as backwards, you might want to reconsider.

Again with the strawmen. We're not talking about American culture. We are most certainly behind in a lot of ways. American culture is not ahead of the Dutch in any way, shape or form that I care to argue.

But to talk about the actual subject of the thread, yes, many Dutch posters appear reluctant to part with an antiquated and racist mascot and refuse to make any changes to it in order to evolve it into our more modern world which has black icons doing things other than acting like fools and servants.

So I'll go ahead and repeat what I said but allow me to clarify:

Yes let's bring this Dutch mascot into the 21st century.

 

[Kiraly]

How many slaves does this fucker have?

He used to have only one or two, but Canadian soldiers in WW2 found it to be funny and celebrated this holiday in our country with dozens of them!

Damn racist Canadians

 

[itsgreen]

It not an issue to know there are Black and White Dutch who find your traditionally racist mascot offensive.

Welp.

What I am saying is there are always minorities who have another opinion.

That doesn't automatically mean they are wrong, but it doesn't make them right.

 

[Rei_Toei]

This is an old, and very flawed argument. There are some kinds of imagery that yes, only members of the race depicted are allowed to participate in.


One last thing before I go. Why does Zwarte Piet have to depicted as dark skin, even if his race is supposedly not a feature and Sinterklaas must be depicted as light skinned. Why does Sinterklaas HAVE to be white above all else? We can take the race away from Piet, again, you happily remove that aspect from him, since the black race aspect is not important, but cannot take it away from Sinterklaas? Why is his white race sacrosanct?

As I've already stated, I don't really care what zwarte piet and sinterklaas look like. I'm fine by zwarte piet not looking like he/she looks now and Sinterklaas can be white, asian, black or whatever.

 

[Chuckie]

But it seems like you just want to point at someone else and say "they're bad too!"

No, I wanted to point out that you shouldn't base an entire people on the opinion of one person, like I wouldn't base the whole of America on the opinions of some racist tweeters.

 

[Big Baybee]

Well they're not that uncaring otherwise the girl wouldn't have lost her job.

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad, when I was six he was the guy who handed out the candy.
Over the years they have removed the 'punishing' element, and I think they can, and should, remove the racial element.
I can honestly tell you that growing up, I thought he was black because of the chimney, bu tlooking at him now it is clear he is a Moor.
My suggestion (which no one gives a fuck about ) would be to slowly remove racial elements. Next year, no more red lips, the year after that no more curly hair, the year after that really obvious black smudges on the face...to make it look like ashes, not skincolour. But thats just my two cents.

Yep, very reasonable post.

 

[Half and half]

This I find highly amusing. An American asking for a culture that has adopted gay marriage, semi-legalised cannabis and universal healthcare in the 20th century to be brought into the 21st? American society is in many ways still catching up to standards long since commonplace in Dutch society.

If your aim is to portray Dutch culture as backwards, you might want to reconsider.

This is a pretty good point.

 

[Goldrusher]

 

[Jackben]

Well they're not that uncaring otherwise the girl wouldn't have lost her job.

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad, when I was six he was the guy who handed out the candy.
Over the years they have removed the 'punishing' element, and I think they can, and should, remove the racial element.
I can honestly tell you that growing up, I thought he was black because of the chimney, bu tlooking at him now it is clear he is a Moor.
My suggestion (which no one gives a fuck about ) would be to slowly remove racial elements. Next year, no more red lips, the year after that no more curly hair, the year after that really obvious black smudges on the face...to make it look like ashes, not skincolour. But thats just my two cents.

This to me sounds like a good idea. I will say, however, that similar changes were proposed previously in the thread but were rejected because "why should we change" and "kids would hate it".

 

[Log4Girlz]

As I've already stated, I don't really care what zwarte piet and sinterklaas look like. I'm fine by zwarte piet not looking like he/she looks now and Sinterklaas can be white, asian, black or whatever.

How often is he depicted as Asian, Black, or whatever? You're fine with it, how fine is everyone else?

Final response before I go to work.

It is convenient to remove the race from Zwarte Piet. It is inconvenient to remove the race from Sinterklaas.


Not only is Zwarte Piet's race removed, it is done so in the most insulting way possible. The racist caricature remains intact and you whitewash its history. I mean, coal soot its history.

 

[Stet]

He used to have only one or two, but Canadian soldiers in WW2 found it to be funny and celebrated this holiday in our country with dozens of them!

Damn racist Canadians

Well yeah, my Canadian grandfather was racist as fuck. But I should hope perceptions change over 70 years??

 

[itsgreen]

But to talk about the actual subject of the thread, yes, many Dutch posters appear reluctant to part with an antiquated and racist mascot and refuse to make any changes to it in order to evolve it into our more modern world which has black icons doing things other than acting like fools and servants.

And that's what you don't seem to understand Zwarte Piet for one isn't a single character there are tons of Pieten. Just like the Smurfs, there is a Piet that wraps presents, there is a Piet who navigates, there is a head Piet who leads the Pieten etc etc, there are also just countless general Pieten. And they don't act like fools or servants. They act like assistents and they just happen to have a black face.

 

[Jackben]

This is a pretty good point.

It would be a good point if I was trying to lord American culture as some kind of pinnacle of civilization. I have not and will never do so in this thread or any other. Because we are not. I already clarified by saying that many Dutch posters appear reluctant to part with an antiquated and racist mascot and refuse to make any changes to it in order to evolve it into our more modern world. So I will continue to implore the Dutch to definitely bring their mascot into the 21st century.

 

[Kiraly]

Well yeah, my Canadian grandfather was racist as fuck. But I should hope perceptions change over 70 years??

The post was just jokingly informative.

 

[Scipius]

Again with the strawmen. We're not talking about American culture. We are most certainly behind in a lot of ways. American culture is not ahead of the Dutch in any way, shape or form that I care to argue.

But to talk about the actual subject of the thread, yes, many Dutch posters appear reluctant to part with an antiquated and racist mascot and refuse to make any changes to it in order to evolve it into our more modern world which has black icons doing things other than acting like fools and servants.

So I'll go ahead and repeat what I said but allow me to clarify:

Yes let's bring this Dutch mascot into the 21st century.

Oh, but we are talking about American culture. Most of your side of this "debate" is driven entirely by Americans. Within Dutch culture, Zwarte Piet is hardly seen as offensive, but Americans go positively nuts at the mere sight of it. In my experience, most non-Americans in the Netherlands just find it quaint at the worst.

Zwarte Piet is already in the 21st century; it's just not aligned with American standards.

 

[Chuckie]

This to me sounds like a good idea. I will say, however, that similar changes were proposed previously in the thread but were rejected because "why should we change" and "kids would hate it".

I think kids wouldn't hate it when it is done slowly. That's why I suggested it to do it over a couple of years. If you'd change it all next year....then yeah kids would be like: What the fuck? But if you change a small element every year, I think it would be no problem. Especially with some supportive parents who come up with some nice fairytales.

Kid: Why are the Pieten not as black as they used to?
Parent: The chimneys nowadays are much cleaner, they don't get that much dirt on their faces as they used to.

 

[Jackben]

Oh, but we are talking about American culture. Most of your side of this "debate" is driven entirely by Americans. Within Dutch culture, Zwarte Piet is hardly seen as offensive, but Americans go positively nuts at the mere sight of it. In my experience, most non-Americans in the Netherlands just find it quaint at the worst.

Zwarte Piet is already in the 21st century; it's just not aligned with American standards.

There are articles that have been posted in this thread and the OP includes a video from the Dutch perspective against the modern depiction of Zwarte Piete.

 

[Supermanisdead]

It is racist. You cannot argue otherwise. The origin is racist. The character depicted is a racist caricature. The image is entirely and completely racist. The question is really whether the Dutch are tolerant of this racist imagery. And yes, they are.

Exactly this.

 

[Loofy]

Posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91rB6AJLy6c

Definitely racist though.

 

[sleepykyo]

Well they're not that uncaring otherwise the girl wouldn't have lost her job.

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad,

Think I saw that or rather an extension of that. It was Saint Nick or Sint depending on the region.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This to me sounds like a good idea. I will say, however, that similar changes were proposed previously in the thread but were rejected because "why should we change" and "kids would hate it".

Kids don't give a fuck.

I hate it when grown ass adults use children as their excuse to be averse to change. You know what kids want? Presents. You could make him green for all kids care.

 

[Onemic]

Well they're not that uncaring otherwise the girl wouldn't have lost her job.

As to my personal opinion:

The image of Zwarte Piet has changed these years (thank God). Even in my lifetime. As a small kid, he was still somewhat scary, but growing up he became so much fun. When I was three, he was a guy who would punish you when you were bad, when I was six he was the guy who handed out the candy.
Over the years they have removed the 'punishing' element, and I think they can, and should, remove the racial element.
I can honestly tell you that growing up, I thought he was black because of the chimney, bu tlooking at him now it is clear he is a Moor.
My suggestion (which no one gives a fuck about ) would be to slowly remove racial elements. Next year, no more red lips, the year after that no more curly hair, the year after that really obvious black smudges on the face...to make it look like ashes, not skincolour. But thats just my two cents.

Ah, so Pete was still displayed in a negative light not too long ago and not hundreds of years ago like what some posters have been saying?

 

[Chuckie]

Ah, so Pete was still displayed in a negative light not too long ago and not hundreds of years ago like what some posters have been saying?

Not negative per se, but punitive. He was not a demon, but more of a strict 'parent'.
Sinterklaas is and was alll about if you had been good or bad. If you had been bad, Sinterklaas knew in his book, and you would be punished by Piet.
This element was disappearing when I grew up. It was still in the songs, but parents would already say this would not actually happen.

Edit: And as a kid, I was scared of Sinterklaas (who knew everything about me) not Zwarte Piet

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Oh, but we are talking about American culture. .

No, we're talking about the expanse of racist depictions of Africa and Africa's darker-skinned descendants around the globe.

Here we have yet another case of it, but with a culture that has collectively tried to shut its eyes to the truth it once knew conveniently, rather than address it head-on. A culture that uses children as the excuse to keep the imagery around in its present form. A culture that, perhaps, could use a little more diversity because it seems incapable of self-checking and correcting these kinds of easy-to-fix issues.

You can be intellectually and morally dishonest amongst yourselves, but the rest of us recognize the SOURCE...and it's too bad that even recognizing the source, you and many of your people don't see the problem. No, you see the problem. The issue is more of your entitlement and refusal to accept truth standing right in front of you with a big, red-lipped smile because it indicts part of your childhood. I simply suggest that you grow up and refuse to make the mistakes your parents made letting this shit slide in your childhood with your future kids.

 

[Goldrusher]

Ah, so Pete was still displayed in a negative light not too long ago

What's "negative" about it? It's the same with Santa...

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake!

There are lots of children's songs about Sinterklaas that mention if you've been naughty, you'll get no presents or even something really lousy, like a piece of coal.
In others, instead of receiving a gift from the Sint's bag, you'd get thrown in. Stuff like that.

Tales to discipline the kids, especially in the weeks leading up to the holiday. "Be good or Sinterklaas won't bring you anything."

 

[Chuckie]

No, we're talking about the expanse of racist depictions of Africa and Africa's darker-skinned descendants around the globe.

Here we have yet another case of it, but with a culture that has collectively tried to shut its eyes to the truth it once knew conveniently, rather than address it head-on. A culture that uses children as the excuse to keep the imagery around in its present form. A culture that, perhaps, could use a little more diversity.

You can be intellectually and morally dishonest amongst yourselves, but the rest of us recognize the SOURCE...and it's too bad that even recognizing the source, you and many of your people don't see the problem. No, you see the problem. The issue is more of your entitlement and refusal to accept truth standing right in front of you with a big, red-lipped smile because it indicts part of your childhood. I simply suggest that you grow up and refuse to make the mistakes your parents made letting this shit slide in your childhood with your future kids.

While I understand your point, and quite agree with you, I bolded that part because that is bullshit. The Netherlands is filled with people of non-Dutch etnicity, up to 52 percent in some cities. Just so you know.

 

[Kiraly]

Here we have yet another case of it, but with a culture that has collectively tried to shut its eyes to the truth it once knew conveniently, rather than address it head-on. A culture that uses children as the excuse to keep the imagery around in its present form. A culture that, perhaps, could use a little more diversity.

It did address it head-on. The Dutch don't tie it to racism any more. It just did not address it the way you wanted it.

And I laughed at your suggestion of having more diversity in the Netherlands, this land is as diverse as it can get.

 

[Kabouter]

It did address it head-on. The Dutch don't tie it to racism any more. It just did not address it the way you wanted it.

And I laughed at your suggestion of having more diversity in the Netherlands, this land is as diverse as it can get.

Over 79% of the population is ethnic Dutch, I'm pretty sure it can get more diverse than that.

 

[itsgreen]

There are articles that have been posted in this thread and the OP includes a video from the Dutch perspective against the modern depiction of Zwarte Piete.

From a perspective... not the Dutch perspective...

 

[Goldrusher]

A culture that, perhaps, could use a little more diversity because it seems incapable of self-checking and correcting these kinds of easy-to-fix issues.

LOL

Come visit Amsterdam, Antwerp or Brussels and you'll change your tone right-away, mister.

Cities with the most nationalities:

1) 177 in Amsterdam
2) 164 in Antwerp
3) 150 in New York

 

[Big Baybee]

It did address it head-on. The Dutch don't tie it to racism any more. It just did not address it the way you wanted .

How did they address it head on when it still uses the same racist imagery? Saying that its not racist does not stop it it from being racist.