Main French conservative party close to melt-down

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So what do French-GAF and others think about the ongoing implosion of the UMP party, which has been going on since last weekend?

French right close to melt-down after election stalemate and accusations of fraud

Paris - Sunday 25 November 2012

Seldom in any democratic country can such fraternal hatred, such bloody-minded determination to eviscerate nominal colleagues, have been exposed within one political party.

Forget John Major’s war with the Tory Eurosceptic “bastards” in the 1990s. Forget Republican primary attack 'ads' in the United States. For eight days, leading members of the French centre-right have been ripping one another apart live on radio and TV or exchanging insults and accusations by Twitter.

François Fillon, the gently-spoken man who was prime minister until six months ago, has accused his leadership rival Jean-François Copé of turning France’s largest political party into a “mafia”. Mr Copé has accused Mr Fillon and his supporters of “ massive, pre-meditated fraud” in an internal election for party president which ended in a near dead-heat last weekend.

A despairing attempt was under way last night to prevent the implosion of the Union pour un Mouvement Populaire (UMP), the party founded by Jacques Chirac 10 years ago (supposedly) to end 30 years of civil warfare on the French centre-right. The man called in to mediate, Alain Juppé, a former prime minister and founding president of the party, said beforehand that he had “only a very small chance” of keeping the “small, flickering flame” of the UMP alive.

Like previous centre-right leadership wars – Chirac vs. Valéry Giscard d’Estaing in the 1980s; Chirac vs. Edouard Balladur in the 1990s; Nicolas Sarkozy vs. Dominique de Villepin between 2002 and 2005 - the dispute is partly about ambition and personal loathing. But it is also a struggle for the soul of a French centre-right which has been left wandering in the moral wilderness by the defeat of Sarkozyism and the resurgence of a cosmetically cleaned-up but still xenophobic National Front.

A break-up of the UMP would trigger tectonic shifts, or linked explosions, in French party politics, which could lead to the emergence of a “new” centrist movement but also to a strengthened “ far” or “hard” Right.

The day after last Sunday’s election, Mr Copé, 48, the party secretary-general, was declared the winner by 98 out of 170,000 votes. Mr Fillon, 58, grudgingly “acknowledged” the outcome but said that that the party had been “fractured morally and politically” by Mr Copé’s dubious “methods” on polling day and by his aggressive, hard right campaign.

In his appeals to the part faithful over the last four months, Mr Copé had “out-Sarkoed” Sarko by using scarcely coded appeals to anti-immigrant and anti-Islamic, white middle-class resentments. Mr Fillon had campaigned for frankly right-wing economic policies (such as the abolition for the 35 hour working week) but a more traditional, tolerant and “humanist” approach on racial and social questions.

On Wednesday, a bombshell arrived from the far side of the world. It emerged that 1,300 votes from French islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans (which are constitutionally part of France) had been “forgotten” in the final count on Monday. Once they were included, Mr Fillon won by 26 votes. Mr Copé refused to step down. He accused Mr Fillon of being a “bad loser”.

Mr Fillon announced live on television on Wednesday night that he no longer wanted the UMP presidency. He simply wanted Mr Copé’s victory cancelled for the sake of “honesty” and “morality” and the credibility of his political “family”.

Mr Fillon supporters walked out of a party appeals committee meeting yesterday morning because they said it was under Copé control. Mr Juppé, the mediator, had asked the committee to suspend its work. Mr Copé insisted on going ahead. Last night leading Copé supporters called into question the neutrality of the mediator, Mr Juppé.

The Copé v Fillon split sprawls across the old fault line of the French centre right. Jacques Chirac created the UMP in 2002 by merging his neo-Gaullist party with the rump of Giscard’s liberal-pro-European-rightist UDF federation. Both Copé and Fillon come from Chirac’s party. Their lieutenants come from both traditions.

This confusion is partly the result of personal ambitions and hatreds. Another ex-Prime Minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin comes from the “soft” or moderate wing of the UMP but supports Copé because he detests Fillon.

But the muddle is also the result of seven years of Sarkozyism. By zig-zagging between economic realism, pro-Europeanism and crude appeals to “national identity”, Mr Sarkozy pulled down all the old political sign-posts in the French centre-right. The old opposition between Gaullism (populist, nationalist and statist) and Giscardsim (pro-European and liberal, socially and economically) has disappeared or become blurred.

The new division, represented by Fillon and Copé, is a split between moderate, thoughtful paternalism and feed-the-beast populism. Copé, like Sarkozy before him, believes that the rise of Marine Le Pen’s National Front can only be checked by red-meat appeals to national identity and fear of immigration and Islam.

Copé rejects outright alliances with the NF. Many of his supporters do not.

François Fillon, though right wing on economic issues, believes the Sarkozy-Copé approach is electorally, as well as morally, disastrous.

Alain Juppé, the ex-Prime Minister, now mayor of Bordeaux, was due to meet both Fillon and Copé tonight at a secret location. If no deal emerges, Mr Fillon could decide to pull up to 130 (out of 200) centre-right deputies out of the UMP group in the national assembly this week.

It is too late for him to create a new group and keep the €40,000 in party funding from the state, which goes with each seat in the assembly. But he has until next weekend to throw in his lot with a small, new centrist movement - taking the state funding with him and pushing the deeply-indebted UMP towards bankruptcy.

The fractious history of the French Right

1976-1981: Valéry Gicard d’Estaing vs. Jacques Chirac

Chirac, fired as Prime Minister by President Giscard in 1976, ran for President in 1981, splitting the centre-right vote. As a result, Giscard was denied a second term by the victory of the Socialist, François Mitterrand.

1993-1995 Jacques Chirac vs. Edouard Balladur

Chirac’s long-time lieutenant, Edouard Balladur, became unexpectedly popular as prime minister from 1993. He ran for the Presidency against his old boss in 1995, producing a fratricidal campaign of dirty tricks in the first round. Chirac won and went on to defeat the Socialist Lionel Jospin in the second round.

2004-2007 Nicolas Sarkozy vs. Dominique de Villepin

Sarkozy betrayed his mentor, Chirac, to help run Balladur’s campaign in 1995. He was never forgiven by Chirac or his right hand man, Dominique de Villepin (who called Sarkozy “the dwarf”). De Villepin was tried – but twice acquitted – of trying to smear Sarkozy as corrupt in 2004 to block his rise to power.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...alemate-and-accusations-of-fraud-8348869.html
 
It's hilarious and scary at the same time.

Hilarious because hahahhhahahahha holy shit they really are pathetic, and scary because it strengthens the FN.

Copé is an utter shit so I'm kind of pissed off he won, but his legitimacy is pretty non-existent at this point.

Don't know if Borloo's UDI will become the new moderate centre right party but who knows.


Once they were included, Mr Fillon won by 26 votes

HAHAHAHAHA, holy shit I didn't know that! This fucking party.
 
It emerged that 1,300 votes from French islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans (which are constitutionally part of France) had been “forgotten” in the final count on Monday. Once they were included, Mr Fillon won by 26 votes. Mr Copé refused to step down.

Surely if that's the case then it should be cut and dry. Don't they have a charter for their party that lays out whether the votes count or not?
 
It's ridiculous and somewhat hilarious, but they'd better split anyway. There's no reason to have that huge party gathering so many political differences, from centrists to (almost) right-extremists.
 
The day after last Sunday’s election, Mr Copé, 48, the party secretary-general, was declared the winner by 98 out of 170,000 votes. Mr Fillon, 58, grudgingly “acknowledged” the outcome but said that that the party had been “fractured morally and politically” by Mr Copé’s dubious “methods” on polling day and by his aggressive, hard right campaign.

On Wednesday, a bombshell arrived from the far side of the world. It emerged that 1,300 votes from French islands in the Pacific and Indian oceans (which are constitutionally part of France) had been “forgotten” in the final count on Monday. Once they were included, Mr Fillon won by 26 votes. Mr Copé refused to step down. He accused Mr Fillon of being a “bad loser”.

Seems quite clear, no?

No recounts, at least?
 
Can't believe Copé got so many votes. This shit seriously boggles my mind. What a smug little piece of trash this guy is, how could he ever believe he'd ever have a shot at becoming president?

I'm honestly worried the repercussion this could have with regard to the FN.
 
It's been a week long plane crash. I just saw Fillon saying he'd go to court over this since Juppé threw the towel and an internal mediation is all but impossible.

I still don't know what to think of this debacle. I guess we get the politicians we deserve.
 
Copé is so desperate to become President in 2017 (he already was when Sarkozy was still President) and just for that (and to see Nadine Morano's reaction) I hope Fillon wins the battle for the UMP.

The UMP Goes to Court

The UMP is now headed to court, Fillon having filed a complaint after Alain Juppé gave up his mission of reconciling the warring Fillon and Copé clans. It is hard to see how the UMP continues as a party after this. If it splits, the big loser is Jean-François Copé, who is more powerful inside the party than in the right-wing electorate as a whole, much less with the general population. But clearly this is a saga that will not play out in a day. The danger, of course, is that the Front National has now achieved its goal of dividing the Right and may seek to pick up bits and pieces of what remains after the explosion. Some will be tempted.

What will Sarkozy do? Will he be tempted to mount his white horse and ride in as unifier? It's not out of the question, but I don't think he will like the lay of the land as it now stands, and he still hasn't amassed the fortune he wants, though he's well on his way, having delivered four major speeches to international business groups for undoubtedly handsome fees.

The rest of us can only sit back and enjoy the spectacle.
http://artgoldhammer.blogspot.fr/2012/11/the-ump-goes-to-court.html
 
Surely if that's the case then it should be cut and dry. Don't they have a charter for their party that lays out whether the votes count or not?
They have a committee supposed to handle voting complaints, but Fillon's side refused to appeal to them since it's (supposedly) full of Copé supporters. That's why Fillon said he would only trust Alain Juppé to sort things out (he's a veteran of the French right, former Prime Minister/Minister of Foreign Affairs/Defense/etc., and founding member of the UMP), since he's deemed neutral and respectable enough. Copé basically told Fillon to let the committee do its work or shut up.

Tonight, Copé and Fillon had a meeting with Alain Juppé, which ended prematurely with no deal made. As a result, Juppé went like 'fuck this shit, I'm out' and Fillon has just announced that he would take things to court.

Meanwhile, François Hollande, Nicolas Sarkozy and Marine Le Pen sit back and laugh.
 
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Ah, I do enjoy watching political meltdowns when they don't affect me directly.
 
Can't believe Copé got so many votes. This shit seriously boggles my mind. What a smug little piece of trash this guy is, how could he ever believe he'd ever have a shot at becoming president?

I'm honestly worried the repercussion this could have with regard to the FN.

Smug pieces of trash seem to do well lots of places these days.
 
At least the right has no place to criticize the left for its divisions anymore, the Congrès de Reims wasn't this stupid.
 
It's ridiculous and somewhat hilarious, but they'd better split anyway. There's no reason to have that huge party gathering so many political differences, from centrists to (almost) right-extremists.
Yeah, there never was any sort of unity in the UMP. As some journalist said, its only purpose was to win the Presidential election. Not that they utterly failed and are so much divided, the party has no future and might as well split.

Can't believe Copé got so many votes. This shit seriously boggles my mind. What a smug little piece of trash this guy is, how could he ever believe he'd ever have a shot at becoming president?
Stealing Le Pen's votes worked for Sarkozy once.

I agree on the bolded part. Copé has no convictions whatsoever, every single one of his stances are just a way of getting more votes. He'd be a communist and sell his parents if it could make him win the election.
 
I think the only way out is the dissolution of UMP. The party cannot be considered serious if they try to stay unite under Copé.

If Fillion leads a new more centrist party, could be a good thing. UMP was playing with fire by trying to seduce far-right voters (LES PAINS AU CHOCOLATS. smh)

And meanwhile, the PS can't do shit to use this...
 
Stealing Le Pen's votes worked for Sarkozy once.

It's not even about his politics, but rather how low this guy was (under Sarkozy) and still is willing to go to get some on air time. He'll say the stupidest, most offensive shit without ever second guessing it, a real fucking lapdog.

I'm genuinely afraid the UMP is suffering the same fate the GOP has in the past few years: a bottoms-up, lowest common denominator wave akin to the Tea Party.

We're so fucked :(
 
Well there's no elections before 2014 right?
I'm not sure what the PS should be doing except trying to fix the country.

Well at least use this on the opinion. I mean I know the govt is probably trying their best. But they let everyone trash them on pretty much any occasion. They should use the UMP Meltdown to be more aggresive on a mediatic side and win some points on opinion. Because otherwise, the probable future Copé party will be pretty hardcore.
 
Former French PM fails to resolve UMP crisis

France's former PM Alain Juppé on Sunday said he had failed to resolve a leadership dispute within the opposition UMP party, with leadership contender François Fillon saying he would turn to the courts after Juppé declared his mission “over.”


France's main right-wing opposition party was close to collapse on Sunday after talks failed to resolve a bitter leadership dispute and an ex-prime minister vowed to take the battle to the courts.

The contested leadership vote has thrown into turmoil ex-president Nicolas Sarkozy's UMP -- still reeling from its loss of the presidency and parliament this year -- and raised the spectre of an unprecedented split on the right.

Called in to mediate the damaging dispute, party heavyweight Alain Juppe threw in the towel after only 45 minutes of talks between ex-prime minister Francois Fillon and party secretary general Jean-Francois Cope late Sunday.

Fillon quickly blamed his rival and raised the stakes by promising to turn to the courts.


"Jean-Francois Cope holds sole responsibility for a failure that hurts our party and, furthermore, undermines the image of political activity," Fillon said in a statement.

"Anxious to break the deadlock into which Jean-Francois Cope's successive power grabs have plunged our party, I will refer the matters to the courts to restore the truth of the results and give a voice back to (party) activists," he said.

Cope held his ground, saying he was awaiting the decision of a party electoral appeals commission. He did not want to "mix the judicial process with the political process," he added.

(...)

The party has faced ridicule over the debacle, at a time it could be taking advantage of Socialist President Francois Hollande's falling popularity over his handling of France's struggling economy.

And Sarkozy himself waded into the debate Sunday. He is attending a conference in Shanghai, but a source close to the ex-president told AFP he had telephoned Juppe and was "in favour of all initiatives that could resolve the situation".

But Juppe, a former prime minister and Sarkozy-era foreign minister, had expressed pessimism he could resolve the conflict. On Sunday evening, after the talks broke up, he said he was giving up his efforts.

"Alain Juppe, noting that his proposals were not accepted, considers that the conditions for a mediation did not come together," said a statement. "Therefore he considers that his mission his over."

The party's former secretary general, ex-labour minister Xavier Bertrand, urged the UMP to clean up its act and warned its existence was at stake.

"This spectacle, this image we have put forward this week, is shameful, not worthy of a great political party," he told France 2 television.

"We must emerge from the crisis we are sinking into, I don't think that in the last 10 years the UMP has ever been in as much danger."

In a IFOP poll published on Sunday in Le Journal du Dimanche newspaper, 71 percent of respondents and 67 percent of UMP supporters said the leadership vote should be run again.

(AFP)
http://www.france24.com/en/20121125...resolve-leadership-dispute-fillon-cope-france
 
The PS has much more important things to worry about than get into pointless politics when there's no elections around the corner.

Like I said, I know there is more important things to do in term of politics, but the govt. needs to play a bit more aggressive without being dicks to gain a bit of momentum. The problem with this meltdown, is that it happend too soon. Both Fillion and Copé (and even the far-right) will have a lot of time to reorganise and going on the offensive again. And we all know that a lot of French don't really care about real politics.

(Oh and also, Is there a lot of French gaffers ? Enough to have a French-Gaf topic ?)
 
I don't know anything about this current situation. Which side is Chirac on? I'll support the opposite side.
Chirac's 80 years old and his health is too bad (memory loss, etc.) for him to get involved in politics anymore. However, Sarkozy and Chirac were always rivals and Copé is Sarkozy's lapdog.
 
I don't know anything about this current situation. Which side is Chirac on? I'll support the opposite side.

Why?(Chirac wasn't a very good president but in my opinion he's miles above the current right wing jokers.At least he wasn't trying to get close to the FN.)
 
Chirac's 80 years old and his health is too bad (memory loss, etc.) for him to get involved in politics anymore. However, Sarkozy and Chirac were always rivals and Copé is Sarkozy's lapdog.

Actually, Copé was one of Chirac's underlings back in '95, while Balladur, with Sarkozy under his wing, tried his run for the presidency. This probably says a lot about Copé and his convictions.
 
Totally ignorant about this stuff but curious. Some potentially moronic questions:

1. How much does this benefit Hollande?
2. What is Sarko up to these days?
3. How does the situation for this center-right party compare to the GOP's situation? Is it same surreal out-of-touchness and refusal to change?
4. How much support does this party have nationally and what is its demographic?
 
Totally ignorant about this stuff but curious. Some potentially moronic questions:

1. How much does this benefit Hollande?
2. What is Sarko up to these days?
3. How does the situation for this center-right party compare to the GOP's situation? Is it same surreal out-of-touchness and refusal to change?
4. How much support does this party have nationally and what is its demographic?
1 - Since the Socialists alone (not counting the other left-wing parties) have the Presidency + both houses of Parliament + most regional councils + most town councils, they were already more powerful than they've ever been, but the weaker the opposition is, the best for them, I guess. The drama at the UMP may also benefit to the far-right National Front, who hate the UMP's guts.

2 - Sarkozy has been travelling abroad, giving conferences for hefty amounts of money. He pretty much stopped getting involved in French politics since his electoral defeat, but he reportedly said, this week, that all options (to save the UMP from imploding) were welcome. The press has said that Sarkozy might come back as a potential 'saviour' of the right in 2017, but his wife Carla Bruni probably wouldn't like it, and he'd actually need an operational (lol) political party to back him.

3 - I don't know, but I don't recall the UMP questioning themselves as to why they lost the elections in 2012. As soon as the elections were over, you'd hear about rivalries between Fillon, Copé and others as to who would become the head of the party now that Sarkozy's out. Fixing what's wrong and changing their political program? 'Lol who cares'

4 - The UMP is the biggest party in terms of members (300,000+) after the Socialist party (170,000+) and they form most of the opposition at the Parliament. They used to be pretty powerful (it's the party of former Presidents Chirac and Sarkozy), until they lost big time after the 2012 elections (Presidential + Legislative).

At the National Assembly, out of 577 MPs, the Socialists have 295 (absolute majority) and the second biggest parliamentary group is the UMP (196 MPs). The third biggest group is the UDI, a recently-founded centre-right party (29 members). Who knows if some of Fillon's supporters will actually join the UDI...
Wikipedia could probably answer that question better than me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_a_Popular_Movement
 
There's no reason to have that huge party gathering so many political differences, from centrists to (almost) right-extremists.
Eye twitching rage that this obvious truth is so strongly discouraged in my political system @_0
 
French right on verge of collapse as talks fail

UMP officials loyal to Jean-François Copé deny bailiff access to election papers after breakdown in talks with rival François Fillon

France's centre-right opposition party is close to total collapse after a bailiff sent to its headquarters to seize contested election papers was turned away.

The move followed a breakdown in talks between the former prime minister François Fillon and rival Jean-François Copé, who have been engaged in a bitter war of words since a leadership election more than a week ago.

The bailiff, sent with a court order, arrived on Monday at the offices of the UMP in Paris's 15th arrondissement to remove voting papers and documentation relating to the ballot after Fillon supporters suggested there was a risk of "manipulation and alteration".

However, shortly after midday, he left empty-handed after party officials loyal to Copé were reported to have refused him access to the documents.

"The [UMP] leaders have deliberately refused to execute a judicial order … in politics, contempt for the justice system is a pretty bad augur for the quality of leaders," said François Sureau, Fillon's lawyer.

The Fillon camp said it had been forced to act after Copé refused to give it access to the documents. It claimed the move was aimed at "conserving" the documents.

"The electoral documents cannot be considered to be safe from manipulations or alterations," said one of the former prime minister's supporters.

Copé, 48, was declared winner by a narrow margin after the ballot of party members. Shortly afterwards, Fillon, 58, claimed votes from three overseas districts had been "forgotten" and gave him victory. In the mud-slinging that followed, both sides accused the other of cheating and election fraud.

For the past week, the two sides have ripped apart the UMP as party heavyweights called for calm and attempted to referee the dispute.

In a final attempt to reconcile the rival camps, the party grandee Alain Juppé was brought in to mediate. He threw in the towel on Sunday evening after his peace efforts failed.

On Monday, there were calls for Nicolas Sarkozy to step in and "use his authority" to calm everyone down. The former president was due to have lunch with Fillon, apparently to dissuade him from taking legal action over the contested vote.

"It's clear that he is the only one who today has sufficient authority to finally propose a solution, that, as far as I'm concerned, is difficult to see. Can Nicolas Sarkozy calm things down and persuade the two parties back around the table to discuss a solution? That's for him to decide," said Juppé on Monday.


The former UMP cabinet minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet launched a petition calling for a fresh ballot among the party's 300,000 members, saying the political legitimacy of the first election on 18 November was compromised. "It is too doubtful, too contested," she told Europe 1 radio.

As political analysts warned the row would fuel support for the far-right Front National, Marine Le Pen, the FN president, declared the UMP was finished.

"The UMP no longer exists. The UMP is finished," she told French television. "It's finished. Whoever runs the UMP will have no legitimacy. Either they re-run the election, which would be reasonable, or the UMP announces its death and at that moment becomes two structures."

In the vacuum left by the implosion of the official opposition party, the FN has been quick to vaunt itself as the only party able to take on President François Hollande's Socialist government.

"We will welcome [UMP members] with open arms, because the real battle against the left must be fought and today, tomorrow and in the months to come. The UMP is clearly not in a state to fight it."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/26/french-right-collapse-talks-fail
 
French politics basically revolves around how good the wine and cheese is. Wine and cheese is interchangeable with power and sex, and most people in power really REALLY like their cheese.
 
The new UMP leader is not much different from the FN unfortunately.

You're quite right but it's a real issue when the value of your party and its worth at a potential election is dependent on the ideas and image of one man.

What this farce really shows is how stupid the whole party system has become in France and elsewhere). Parties are not there to promote ideas and politics anymore, they just exist to seize power through the most aptly marketed man / woman. It's pretty sickening and quite frankly, I wouldn't bother calling any of it a 'democratic process' anymore. Let's just be honest and call it a real-TV show so we can all vote without feeling like crap.
 
And I was going to get out of Gaf...
Good thing OT still exists...

Believe me no one could have as much fun about this shitty formation's explosion than me but more seriously the left should thank their lucky star that the worst right in the world is back again.
Between the horrenduous policy Hollande is following, the stupidest miniisters this side of Bachelot and the Vaudeville of who's going to be lead the party instead of Hollande without even anything close to an election...

That said if Cope is "chosen", he's basically fucked.
I mean the finances of the party are/will be in the red because :
- they lost...BADLY so they don't get as much public handouts as they expected
- the fine they got for not respective the rule of 1man/1woman in the last election
- deputés are threatening to split, so much of the finances coming from them is out (and this is the most worrying aspect if you're handling the finance of UMP).
With the ashes of the party, Hollande would to fuck up pretty badly to lose in the coming years...for the lulz I'm pretty sure he'll manage to do it.

I don't believe Copé can ever win an election again after this shit.Except in Meaux I guess.

You underestimate how stupid the people can be.
 
You guys elected Hollande, he definitely didn't win from the centre...

Considering the choices, yes he did, and actually he won because he wasn't Sarkozy.
Make no mistake a boot wearing goat would have won too if it had been in his stead (and would probably make a better president too)
Also we're in a 2 party system where other parties are only important if one of the 2 big party is weak enough.
That should tell you how weak PS was till this election.
 
You guys elected Hollande, he definitely didn't win from the centre...

He's as centrist as it gets.It's Sarkozy and the UMP who were off center.

In each elections he beat his left wing opponents by a large margin (Martine Aubry in the primaries, Mélenchon in the presidential election)
 
Hollande is a centre-left politician, a social-democrat like Chirac, Mitterrand, and the 2007-era Sarkozy. Mélenchon, however, isn't.

Wut? DSK would have been centre-left.
Although I may be thinking of the ministers in this case, it doesn't matter anyway we'll get lip service for a left wing policy and he'll be coerced into a doing a right wing policy...since he didn't believe the country was in such a bad shape (which funnily enough Fillon warned everyone since he became PM)
 
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