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[Hawkian]

Quite the opposite, if more people were carrying a gun it would mean more people capable of killing the shooter before this could take place.

This is the worst, most abjectly terrible, dangerous and disgusting position to take on this issue.

What is the ratio of massacres that have been prevented or limited by an armed civilian to the total number of massacres? I need to learn this to be able to properly frame the debate.

 

[Devolution]

Yes or no. Does it concern you? Going by your comment, you seem to be okay with weapons in schools as long as the potential victim has a somewhat realistic chance of stopping the attacker. If we are going to make guns illegal because people can easily enter schools and create a massacres, are knives really a different subject because adults may be able to sacrificially subdue the attacker? How hard is it to conceal a knife, kill the teacher, lock the door, and kill a room of elementary kids with a knife?

How did you manage to come to that conclusion?

 

[Deified Data]

It feels like intelligent conversation with anti-regulation folks is made impossible by their insistence on turning every mention of sane regulation into "DYSTOPIAN NIGHTMARE!". To many of them, they see no logic in restricting the ownership of guns to anyone - despite the fact that they benefit from such stringent regulation policies every time they drive on an orderly highway.

 

[CharlieDigital]

In many circumstances, yes I agree a gun is more lethal. I'm saying the difference is negligible. Both are so lethal that they should be considered extremely lethal devices. A knife is extremely lethal. A gun just happens to be even more extremely lethal.

LMAO.

Dude walks in with a knife: teacher can fend him off with a metal folding chair or even a wood stool.

Dude walks in with a gun...

Yeah, the difference is totally negligible.

 

[DataStream]

Mass shootings are not as rare in other countries as you make it seem. It hardly depends on gun laws either.

Mass shootings are just the most visible issue.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/c...ources/the_u_s_compared_to_other_nations.html

 

[Vilix]

Either get rid of all guns, or don't. IMO there's no middle ground.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

It's stupid to argue that because guns already exist and are easy to get that we can't, going forward, make them harder to get.

If we do nothing, gun culture and gun ownership will never change, so using the fact they exist as an argument is meaningless. Coupled with a wrong fact, it just makes the entire "point" empty.

there are 88 firearms for every 100 people in this country. You are a fool if you think making them harder to get is going to be a panacea for gun violence.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

there are 88 firearms for every 100 people in this country. You are a fool if you think making them harder to get is going to be a panacea for gun violence.

So pack it up, go home, we can't do anything?

 

[ultrazilla]

This is a horrible, horrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers to all affected by this unspeakable act of evil.

There are no amounts of gun control that will prevent acts such as this from ever happening again.

Criminals and mentally unstable people will ALWAYS find a way to get firearms. Making it harder for responsible, law abiding citizens to obtain guns will not prevent further tragedy.

 

[Escape Goat]

America was never in a position to ban guns. Guns are what made this country possible back in 1776. The American spirit of independence and autonomy are very apparent in its colonization beyond the 13 colonies. Owning a gun is an expression of that independence. Trying to change that attitude is going to be tough, but I don't think its impossible.

 

[Owensboro]

Why were school shootings completely eliminated in Britain and Japan, then?

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

 

[Devolution]

It feels like intelligent conversation with anti-regulation folks is made impossible by their insistence on turning every mention of sane regulation into "DYSTOPIAN NIGHTMARE!". To many of them, they see no logic in restricting the ownership of guns to anyone - despite the fact that they benefit from such stringent regulation policies every time they drive on an orderly highway.

NRA lobbies have made it nearly impossible to have any sort of gun control.

From my cold, dead hands.

This is a horrible, horrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers to all affected by this unspeakable act of evil.

There are no amounts of gun control that will prevent acts such as this from ever happening again.

Criminals and mentally unstable people will ALWAYS find a way to get firearms. Making it harder for responsible, law abiding citizens to obtain guns will not prevent further tragedy.

This doesn't make sense. You can make it more difficult for the mentally unstable to acquire weaponry. We currently do not do this.

 

[volturnus]

This is the worst, most abjectly terrible, dangerous and disgusting position to take on this issue.

What is the ratio of massacres that have been prevented or limited by an armed civilian to the total number of massacres? I need to learn this to be able to properly frame the debate.

I'll take a wild guess and say that if someone stopped a shooter, there probably was no massacre to speak of.

 

[Timedog]

Mass shootings are not as rare in other countries as you make it seem. It hardly depends on gun laws either.

The US has a population of what, 300+ million? Shootings and violence are to be expected to a certain extent. Even Finland with a population of 5 million has had quite a few mass murder shootings this millenia, despite strict gun laws.

If someone is fucked up in the head, they'll find a way. They always do.

edit:

You also have to take into account that similar incidents are not as widely presented in the news in whatever country you live in. Thus you get a flawed view of the reality.

LOLOLOLOL

Finns have the fourth most firearms in the world per capita (right after United States, Yemen, Switzerland) totalling 1.62 million registered privately owned firearms and 10,000–20,000 unregistered firearms.[2] Gun related homicides are rare, comprising 14% of the total number of homicides,[3] which is comparatively low.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[DataStream]

This is a horrible, horrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers to all affected by this unspeakable act of evil.

There are no amounts of gun control that will prevent acts such as this from ever happening again.

Criminals and mentally unstable people will ALWAYS find a way to get firearms. Making it harder for responsible, law abiding citizens to obtain guns will not prevent further tragedy.

But it will change the culture, which is the core of the problem. Our relationship to firearms is fundamentally unhealthy.

 

[Futureman]

for people who think it's mainly gun laws that need to be changed... how do you explain Norway? Don't they have some of the strictest laws yet one of the worst gun massacres ever?

if it were up to me, I'd snap my fingers and all guns would be gone forever. I hate them. But I don't see gun laws curbing these tragic events. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

So pack it up, go home, we can't do anything?

anything you do legislatively is doomed to failure, not only because the gun lobby will compromise it to death but also because it won't make any difference.

 

[Delusibeta]

This is a horrible, horrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers to all affected by this unspeakable act of evil.

There are no amounts of gun control that will prevent acts such as this from ever happening again.

Criminals and mentally unstable people will ALWAYS find a way to get firearms. Making it harder for responsible, law abiding citizens to obtain guns will not prevent further tragedy.

Yes it will. I'll wager that America is among the largest sources of guns amongst all of the criminals in the world.

 

[DietRob]

Just because it's hard doesn't mean you need to give up even trying.

Right, I agree. But what is there to do this is a discussion forum so I was hoping we could have a discussion on this. Everyone knows our elected officials won't. So maybe we can?

 

[BattleMonkey]

Either get rid of all guns, or don't. IMO there's no middle ground.

If that's the only choices, then nothing will ever be done.

 

[DietRob]

How about yearly check-ups with mental health professionals similar to going to a DMV and testing your sight to keep your drivers licence? How about that?

 

[alphaNoid]

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

Personally I don't think tighter gun control is going to stop someone who wants to kill people. There are plenty (millions) of law abiding gun owners who exercise their right to bare arms legally and without harm to others. Its very unfortunate however that all it takes is one wacko monster to go on a killing spree and taint that image.

None of what I'm saying takes away from the tragedy today, I am heartbroken by what I'm reading/hearing on the news today. It hits me way too close to home since I have 2 small children. However, in discussion ... the issue should be less about gun control and more about fixing these problems we have in society. Guns have been around for many many years, but these shootings in large numbers are only something that has started happening over the past few short years (decade or so).

My question is.. what changed? Whats going on with society these days that people are reduced to murdering others instead of just taking their own life? Why do suicidal people choose to go this route? Is it more than just a psychological issue? Is it partly due to the mass media coverage these things get? Do would be killers simply feel they can go out with a bang and make headlines news on their way out instead of falling to page 20 in the local news paper?

What changed? Why are people killing others on their way out? If guns were removed completely.. do some of you really think stuff like this wouldn't happen? Because I don't. I feel like if someone wants to kill others, then themselves in a blaze of glory.. where there is a will, there is a way. We would likely see less gun shootings and more make shift bombings or other crazy shit. I do not think guns are the problem, guns are simply an inanimate object.. a tool.

Whats going on with society is my question?

 

[Deified Data]

NRA lobbies have made it nearly impossible to have any sort of gun control.

From my cold, dead hands.

Never blame the lobbies - they are what they do.

Blame the politicians who pander to them.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Yes it does. Would I rather be in a mass murder situation put up against a guy with a knife vs a guy with a gun? Yes I would.

I don't understand how it's an argument that you have to use more effort to kill someone with a knife over a gun. There's a reason in America there are so few mass murder incidents involving knives.

And what do you think would happen if guns were illegal? Surely you'd think knife mass murders would increase, right? Are you going to ban knives next? My argument is you cannot legislate the insane because if they are determined to kill, even at the expense of their own life, then they will.

 

[Draxal]

I think he's argueing that a knife can do a whole 1d8+4 damage while a pistol only does a mere 1d4. He's not paying attention to range requirements though...

I honestly think he's framing his argument in the wrong manner. It's not so much how deadly the weapons were, but how awfully vulnerable the victims were in this situation. I'm just terrified thinking about it.

Well nm, he explained his argument in a different matter.

 

[sans_pants]

LOLOLOLOL



HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

aren't most homicides crime related? which is an economic issue that finland has a lot less of.

 

[i-Lo]

I never understood why (as a Canadian):

• Live ammunition were ever made available to public when things like rubber bullets or bean bag rounds could be nearly as effective without being (always) fatal.
• You need license to drive a car but not a gun. A car's primary purpose isn't to propel projectiles at very high velocities toward soft and hard targets. So why isn't there a mandatory classes on how to handle firearms (including safely storing it etc) and test for gun owners to qualify them to check (to an extent) for sound mind, competence etc?

 

[CharlieDigital]

for people who think it's mainly gun laws that need to be changed... how do you explain Norway? Don't they have some of the strictest laws yet one of the worst gun massacres ever?

Look at their healthcare system.

Look at their mental healthcare.

Look at their education system.

Look at their society as a whole.

Does their system promote civility? Does it promote overall human well being? Does it promote equality and fairness? Do social safety nets help prevent a feeling of hopelessness? Does the media promote or desensitize its populace to violence?

What drives folks to violence is more than just access to weapons, but easier access to more lethal weapons will lead to more lethal results.

 

[LyleLanley]

And what do you think would happen if guns were illegal? Surely you'd think knife mass murders would increase, right? Are you going to ban knives next? My argument is you cannot legislate the insane because if they are determined to kill, even at the expense of their own life, then they will.

Knives have legitimate use outside of killing things.

 

[anotherVegan]

Short answer. No.

Long answer. No.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Criminals and mentally unstable people will ALWAYS find a way to get firearms. Making it harder for responsible, law abiding citizens to obtain guns will not prevent further tragedy.

I see this argument all the time, is there any real proof?

I mean, it's easier now to legit buy a gun than use the black market. If every gun was tagged, ammo was scarce, and it became a felony to lose a gun without reporting it, you really think that suddenly the black market (whose main resource for aquiring guns), will just explode with psychos left and right buying firearms?

That a heat of the moment crazy dude will go to some gang and pay them money and that isn't any different or a deterrent at all when compared to walking into walmart?

Nobody realistically is asking to make guns impossible to get, but making them harder to get adds a barrier of safety. It prevents heat of the moment attacks, it gives psychos a period to think things over and it slows down the whole process.

Unless you'd like to argue a dude that wakes up and says "I am going to slaughter 2 dozen kids today" walks into KMart, buys a gun and does his deed is not different at all from that same dude waking up, and then having to find a local gang, manage to gain their trust enough to buy a gun, and then do the deed? One requires a hell of a lot more work than the other and it gives the would be killer more time to reconsider, to calm down, to change, or to just be spooked into not going it.

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

I didn't realize baseball bats were made for killing things and had no other purpose

 

[FUBAR McDangles]

LOLOLOLOL



HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Finland also has required military service from nearly every citizen that includes the training and maintenance of firearms.

You have to mention that factor if you are just trying to troll people who want to conserve gun owning rights.

 

[IHaveCandy]

How did you manage to come to that conclusion?

Because when I asked you if it worried you, you said the teachers can potentially subdue the attacker. So arrarently there is no problem here.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yes or no. Does it concern you? Going by your comment, you seem to be okay with weapons in schools as long as the potential victim has a somewhat realistic chance of stopping the attacker. If we are going to make guns illegal because people can easily enter schools and create a massacres, are knives really a different subject because adults may be able to sacrificially subdue the attacker? How hard is it to conceal a knife, kill the teacher, lock the door, and kill a room of elementary kids with a knife?

To do all that as you described?

Significantly harder than it would be with a gun.

 

[Trey]

It's very easy to say "ban guns", consider anyone who disagrees with you a coward, and not outline a plan to carry out your proposed ban in a feasible manner.

Guns are indeed very deadly. They grant undue power to anyone who wields them. But they exist, will continue to exist, and will only be replaced by a weapon more powerful. So the answer is not to merely ban guns. That does not at all solve the problem now or going forward. Anyone who believes so is willfully ignorant of the current reality, and the questionable underbelly of humanity.

We must change ourselves, and together learn how to treat each other. And, most importantly, learn how to handle power.

 

[Timedog]

aren't most homicides crime related? which is an economic issue that finland has a lot less of.

If it's not comparable don't bring up Finland. You can't bring it up on one hand to make one point and then say it's not comparable on the other hand.

 

[Draxal]

Look at their healthcare system.

Look at their mental healthcare.

Look at their education system.

Look at their society as a whole.

Does their system promote civility? Does it promote overall human well being? Does it promote equality and fairness?

What drives folks to violence is more than just access to weapons, but easier access to more lethal weapons will lead to more lethal results.

Um, Norway is pretty much top five in all of these. That was such a totally heartbreaking disaster.

 

[xxracerxx]

And what do you think would happen if guns were illegal? Surely you'd think knife mass murders would increase, right? Are you going to ban knives next? My argument is you cannot legislate the insane because if they are determined to kill, even at the expense of their own life, then they will.

Sure knife violence might rise but that isn't to say the number or dead would remain the same. My friend was stabbed 20+ times (head and back as well as defensive wounds) luckily it was a small knife and is just fine today. Now if he had been attacked with a gun he wouldn't be here today.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I see this argument all the time, is there any real proof?

I mean, it's easier now to legit buy a gun than use the black market. If every gun was tagged, ammo was scarce, and it became a felony to lose a gun without reporting it, you really think that suddenly the black market (whose main resource for aquiring guns), will just explode with psychos left and right buying firearms?

That a heat of the moment crazy dude will go to some gang and pay them money and that isn't any different or a deterrent at all when compared to walking into walmart?

Nobody realistically is asking to make guns impossible to get, but making them harder to get adds a barrier of safety. It prevents heat of the moment attacks, it gives psychos a period to think things over and it slows down the whole process.

Unless you'd like to argue a dude that wakes up and says "I am going to slaughter 2 dozen kids today" walks into KMart, buys a gun and does his deed is not different at all from that same dude waking up, and then having to find a local gang, manage to gain their trust enough to buy a gun, and then do the deed? One requires a hell of a lot more work than the other and it gives the would be killer more time to reconsider, to calm down, to change, or to just be spooked into not going it.

If there was money to be made selling guns in the US, I'm quite sure the cartels would be happy to make that happen. If you want to reduce the amount of guns from 88 for every 100 people, you either have to turn the US into an anti gun police state or completely change the gun culture in the country. Both seem nearly impossible as goals to me. I agree that guns are super deadly weapons but I don't think we're at a point where you can realistically do anything about it.

 

[Hawkian]

I'll take a wild guess and say that if someone stopped a shooter, there probably was no massacre to speak of.

How about instead of taking a wild guess you provide an example.

 

[Vilix]

How about yearly check-ups with mental health professionals similar to going to a DMV and testing your sight to keep your drivers licence? How about that?

There would have to be an amendment to the constitution first. Unlike owning a firarm, driving is a privledge. Not a right.

 

[IHaveCandy]

To do all that as you described?

Significantly harder than it would be with a gun.

Oh I guess I was wrong. Knives can't kill people easily. That one attack proves that no matter what kind of knife or the skill of the weirder, a knife isn't a seriously lethal weapon for killing easily. It's not like there has ever been a botched shooting that lead to several injuries but no death...

http://m.smh.com.au/world/man-survives-after-being-shot-21-times-in-gunfight-20100810-11ukw.html

 

[Kenai]

So pack it up, go home, we can't do anything?

Probably not. At least we can't implement any ideas that I have heard so far (whether from this forum or otherwise) and expect any measure of success. I think that poster who mentioned mental health problems on the first page had the closest think to a good general idea about correlation vs causation, but yea...health care in the U.S...

Gun violence seems more like a symptom than a root problem to me at this time. "Removing them" is not only going to be lawfully impossible in our lifetimes (you know this to be true), but doing that would be akin to blaming/banning forks for obesity here, or for a more real scenario, banning large restaurant drink sizes in NYC. At the very best the impact would be minimal and avoiding the actual problem, just a feel good exercise to make them/us feel like we did something even if it was nothing. If it were anywhere near that easy to fix it would be taken care of already.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I'd hate to die by baseball bat.

 

[sans_pants]

If it's not comparable don't bring up Finland. You can't bring it up on one hand to make one point and then say it's not comparable on the other hand.

I didnt bring up finland

 

[Timedog]

Finland also has required military service from nearly every citizen that includes the training and maintenance of firearms.

You have to mention that factor if you are just trying to troll people who want to conserve gun owning rights.

What does this have to do with anything? Did you somehow, out of what I posted, get that I am against making it so people have to have comprehensive gun training before they are allowed to have a gun? What you posted helps my viewpoint, dude.

I didnt bring up finland

I never said you were the first one to bring it up. I'm just telling you that you can't agree with what he said and disagree with what I posted at the same time. It was just a FYI.

 

[xxracerxx]

Oh I guess I was wrong. Knives can't kill people easily. That one attack proves that no matter what kind of knife or the skill of the weirder, a knife isn't a seriously lethal weapon for killing easily. It's not like there has ever been a botched shooting that lead to several injuries but no death...

http://m.smh.com.au/world/man-survives-after-being-shot-21-times-in-gunfight-20100810-11ukw.html

Do you seriously believe that this man would have been able to kill almost 30 people today with a knife in the same amount of time as a gun?

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Ugh, first shooting related comment on my Facebook was from a friend who's a teacher...saying she wanted to pack heat. :/

 

[EviLore]

Not sure how legit this is, but interesting to look at.

Only two of these statistics have anything to do with murder.

 

[Devolution]

Because when I asked you if it worried you, you said the teachers can potentially subdue the attacker. So arrarently there is no problem here.

You're the one insisting that a knife is comparable to a gun in terms of possible violence. I'm about to put you on ignore for being willfully ignorant and obtuse.