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[coldfoot]

While Sony exclusives will be in their own bubble with similar results, don't be surprised to see some new PC games go over the 4GB.

The thing is that those 4GB's would contain all the assets in the game. You would never see all assets in a game on screen at once, or even in such a quick succession that streaming from flash wouldn't be fast enough.

 

[i-Lo]

While Sony exclusives will be in their own bubble with similar results, don't be surprised to see some new PC games go over the 4GB.

Many of the games on current gen systems that are considered to punch above their weight would not have existed without smart design including asset streaming. Assuming both consoles have compulsory HDD, the ever growing assets will see substantial amounts of streaming for both platforms.

 

[Globox_82]

My personal hope, is that maybe a barrier will be broken and we get some cross platform play.

Fuck that would be awesome. Maybe if these consoles are as similar as they appear, that could be possible?

I agree this would be awesome.

 

[nib95]

Although I did not wish to partake in breaking down what these few posters bring to the table, I would like to emphasize that their posts contain inclination of preferences that are designed to constantly level the playing field (if not more). The interpretations of the specifications are seldom done without mentioning the direct competitor for comparative analysis and context. As an example, Proelite's last post about a new found discovery is supplemented with his observation of how it may be render the whole GPU solution superior to its competitor, overcoming the rumoured theoretical performance gap of 0.6Tflops and then some. In the same vein, and I apologize once again, Aegeis has been quick to remind us in a similar fashion (in the past) that Sony's next console does not inspire as much confidence as Microsoft's. Although others have stated that it could be due to him perhaps just not possessing enough information, the delivery of that message had been slightly skewed when presented to us. Keen observers would have also noticed that prior to any solid leads about next gen GPU, especially, the alleged before the 1.2TF figure came into focus for XB3, most of the GPU talk primarily held "TFlops" as the most influential, and dare I say important benchmark (plus the efficiency gained in closed box) by which the next generation was to be judged.

Let me be very clear: I expect both consoles to be adequately powerful and that there are members here, like StevieP, who when lowball potential specification and their implication do so for all platforms and to keep expectations of members in check. However, there are members here who almost act like subtle mouthpieces for specific platform holders while they leak information.

I concur with this post. I didn't want to be rude or blatant, but that is how it has been coming off to me also. It is why I joked a while back that it would be nice to get a Sony employees take on things, because so far it seems to all be the other way.

 

[ghst]

Although I did not wish to partake in breaking down what these few posters bring to the table, I would like to emphasize that their posts contain inclination of preferences that are designed to constantly level the playing field (if not more). The interpretations of the specifications are seldom done without mentioning the direct competitor for comparative analysis and context. As an example, Proelite's last post about a new found discovery is supplemented with his observation of how it may be render the whole GPU solution superior to its competitor, overcoming the rumoured theoretical performance gap of 0.6Tflops and then some. In the same vein, and I apologize once again, Aegeis has been quick to remind us in a similar fashion (in the past) that Sony's next console does not inspire as much confidence as Microsoft's. Although others have stated that it could be due to him perhaps just not possessing enough information, the delivery of that message had been slightly skewed when presented to us. Keen observers would have also noticed that prior to any solid leads about next gen GPU, especially, the alleged before the 1.2TF figure came into focus for XB3, most of the GPU talk primarily held "TFlops" as the most influential, and dare I say important benchmark (plus the efficiency gained in closed box) by which the next generation was to be judged.

Let me be very clear: I expect both consoles to be adequately powerful and that there are members here, like StevieP, who when lowball potential specification and their implication do so for all platforms and to keep expectations of members in check. However, there are members here who almost act like subtle mouthpieces for specific platform holders while they leak information.

reading this was like drinking a cool glass of water.

 

[meta4]

Well if it leads to multiplat development... Like more ambitious open world games like Skyrim. Memory Management could be a nightmare.

If the next Elder Scrolls leads on PS4, it would be a best case scenario for everyone.

All of this is assuming 8GB of DDR3 is better than 4GB of DDR5? If that is not the case then leading on 720 would be wiser.

 

[CLEEK]

The Audio DSP in Durango has such an amazing potential , its spelt out in this MS patent!

http://www.google.com/patents/US201...a=X&ei=7B_-UJyuD6HSmAX2yIDgAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA

An off-host audio engine interface exposes audio processing capabilities to a host. The interface receives offloaded audio streams and a host-processed audio stream from the host. The off-host audio engine processes the offloaded audio streams individually to create off-host-processed audio streams. The host-processed audio stream is mixed with the off-host-processed streams to create a mixed stream. The mixed stream undergoes audio processing by the off-host engine. The off-host audio engine provides output and reference audio streams based on the mixed audio stream. The reference stream can be provided to the host via the interface. Via the interface, the host can control local and global audio processing performed by the off-host engine by enabling or disabling local and global processing, and by enabling or disabling local and global audio processing components of the off-host audio engine.

My brain hurts from reading that.

 

[Reiko]

All of this is assuming 8GB of DDR3 is better than 4GB of DDR5? If that is not the case then leading on 720 would be wiser.

I'm only saying this if Bethseda refuses to optimize the major flaw of their engine.

 

[ThisWreckage]

There are GAFers that are coding Orbis games.

Could have fooled me. Seems like a lot more is leaking out about Durango and it isn't even close.

 

[MWS Natural]

720 now w/ ray tracing!

 

[Mr.Green]

For those that don't want to read the patent...

These DSP's coupled with a brilliant memory setup and high-bandwidth/low-latency BUS. Can lead to some very interesting cloud (external host) processing of content/signals. So you stream audio/video from the box to other devices in your home or even the cloud and its processed on those external devices. The result is then returned to your Xbox (the host) and continues on to be renderd.

Pretty much future proofs the Xbox if its done right!

Saywha? Do you have a real world example because this doesn't make much sense to me. For starters, the latency from transmission is a deal breaker no?

 

[iceatcs]

While Sony exclusives will be in their own bubble with similar results, don't be surprised to see some new PC games go over the 4GB.

Maybe but while both rumours, I don't see it will get much out for higher resolution than 1080p. The material will stuck design/made for 1080p not always higher. Few special pc games might go further more at ending gen. Mods too.

 

[liquidboy]

My brain hurts from reading that.

Basically if you have several devices with these MS Durango chips in them (with these monstrous DSP bits) then they can all work together to process audio/video...

Eg. if you have a phone/tablet/xbox all with Durango chips in them (with DSP's) then technically they can all work together to render a scene!

Throw in the CLOUD ... you have a grid processing thing going on ....


BUT I still believe OBAN is even more impressive than these beastly DSP's

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

Will Durango have "blast processing"?

 

[nasos_333]

It is rather strange that MS willingly and knowing PS4 specs would release such a lower power system and loose all the multipltform edge they had that made them the biggest difference by far

For example now people will buy all games on PS4 and none on 720 and things like the 6 million Skyrim sales on 360 will now be on PS4

I think this strategy will hurt xbox brand, or even completly make it dissapear in the generation beyond PS4/720, since it cant possibly be profitable without many 3rd party sales

Of course this harwdare could offer cloud version of games with even better graphics, but that would come at extra cost, if it is at all possible with the current connections

 

[oversitting]

The thing about RAM is, more isn't necessarily better, you only need enough. If Orbis has at least 4GB I think it'll be fine.

As a baseline I rarely see PC games today with high-res textures and other enhancements go over 3GB, most are under 2.5GB.

More ram is always nice. Remember 7 years ago? you got 1-2GB of ram in your computer. Now thats hardly enough to run windows and a game.

Now fast forward to 5 years from now. 4GB will seem like nothing and developers might not have enough. Just like the current situation with the ps3 and 360.

 

[surly]

For those that don't want to read the patent...

These DSP's coupled with a brilliant memory setup and high-bandwidth/low-latency BUS. Can lead to some very interesting cloud (external host) processing of content/signals. So you stream audio/video from the box to other devices in your home or even the cloud and its processed on those external devices. The result is then returned to your Xbox (the host) and continues on to be renderd.

Pretty much future proofs the Xbox if its done right!

I don't understand what this means. Could you break it down with a real world example in plain English please?

 

[Uno Venova]

Although I did not wish to partake in breaking down what these few posters bring to the table, I would like to emphasize that their posts contain inclination of preferences that are designed to constantly level the playing field (if not more). The interpretations of the specifications are seldom done without mentioning the direct competitor for comparative analysis and context. As an example, Proelite's last post about a new found discovery is supplemented with his observation of how it may be render the whole GPU solution superior to its competitor, overcoming the rumoured theoretical performance gap of 0.6Tflops and then some. In the same vein, and I apologize once again, Aegeis has been quick to remind us in a similar fashion (in the past) that Sony's next console does not inspire as much confidence as Microsoft's. Although others have stated that it could be due to him perhaps just not possessing enough information, the delivery of that message had been slightly skewed when presented to us. Keen observers would have also noticed that prior to any solid leads about next gen GPU, especially, the alleged before the 1.2TF figure came into focus for XB3, most of the GPU talk primarily held "TFlops" as the most influential, and dare I say important benchmark (plus the efficiency gained in closed box) by which the next generation was to be judged.

Let me be very clear: I expect both consoles to be adequately powerful and that there are members here, like StevieP, who when lowball potential specification and their implication do so for all platforms and to keep expectations of members in check. However, there are members here who almost act like subtle mouthpieces for specific platform holders while they leak information.

Can't disagree with any of that, especially the bolded.

 

[soundscream]

Has anyone seen this article. I find this hard to believe, that MS has made nothing in the Xbox division. Especially with Live memberships. Sorry if this old.

http://appygamer.mobilesrepublic.com/Web/ArticleMobile.aspx?regionid=1&articleid=6222204

And Microsoft makes nothing from its Xbox/Kinect entertainment division

Yeah the entertainment division isn't just Xbox, its basicly where Microsoft has been shoving their failures, which are minimized by the Xbox profits. I really think I should have become an analyst you apparently don't have to understand the data your analyzing.

 

[Codeblew]

Are you 11?

Eh, I thought it was funny due to the fact that people that have no technical knowledge are banking so much on "Secret Sauce" pulling Durango ahead in the leaked spec wars. I am not going to judge the best console until official specs are released but in the meantime, it is entertaining watching people defend one pseudo spec or the other.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Basically if you have several devices with these MS Durango chips in them (with these monstrous DSP bits) then they can all work together to process audio/video...

Eg. if you have a phone/tablet/xbox all with Durango chips in them (with DSP's) then technically they can all work together to render a scene!

Throw in the CLOUD ... you have a grid processing thing going on ....


BUT I still believe OBAN is even more impressive than these beastly DSP's

What if you don't have internet? (for any reason)

 

[Ramblin]

I hope these things launch soon so we can establish a pecking order, although this speculation is pretty entertaining.

 

[CLEEK]

What if you don't have internet? (for any reason)

There are constant rumours that the next Xbox will require an always-on internet connection.

 

[Demoncarnotaur]

Ok, this may help people but the power into perspective.. What modern, high spec PC games could this run relatively, and what would it theoretically look like? I know this doesn't compare directly, but at the very least it may help put into perspective what the ballpark is visually.

I'm starting to think this 'secret sauce' thing is just a hopeful and extravagant attempt by certain people to try boost Durango and close the performance gap the actual rumoured specs seem to show.

It's gone from a sure thing, to maybe not existing, to being not understandable, to now being something completely different.

I'd be happy to be proven otherwise mind, since for me personally, the ideal situation is for both consoles to be as powerful as possible.

I'm starting to think the same thing TBH.. It may indeed exist to some capacity, but what it actually achieves will be another question entirely. I'm starting to think the Durango will let me down when it comes to what it can run.

 

[XtremeXpider]

There are constant rumours that the next Xbox will require an always-on internet connection.

I hope no...

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

All of this is assuming 8GB of DDR3 is better than 4GB of DDR5? If that is not the case then leading on 720 would be wiser.

Well we also have mixed reports about OS usage, so really it is tough to say at the moment until we get some official release. if the 720 is using 3 GB for OS features than 5 GB DDR3 doesn't look as great compared to 3.5-4 GB DDR5.

In the end I think everyone should just expect both consoles to be fairly even in the power department. Though it could be huge for one or the other to be the lead platform, but because both will have PC like architecture will that even matter as much?

 

[Reiko]

Eh, I thought it was funny due to the fact that people that have no technical knowledge are banking so much on "Secret Sauce" pulling Durango ahead in the leaked spec wars. I am not going to judge the best console until official specs are released but in the meantime, it is entertaining watching people defend one pseudo spec or the other.

What else are we to go by?

We had a multiplat developer comment both consoles being a wash.

It's a far cry from: "Well we're seemingly getting more legroom for one of the next generation consoles."

So far, no multiplat dev has stated something like this.

 

[liquidboy]

I don't understand what this means. Could you break it down with a real world example in plain English please?

MS can use the CLOUD as well as other devices connected to your network to help render audio/video/media on the xbox.

Xbox Surface/ Xbox Lite/ Phone with Durango chips/ PC with Durango bits/Xbox live (cloud) can all work together to possibly render an avatar like game .. Maybe Xbox lite on its own isn't powerful enough BUT with other devices and the cloud it is..

That's what DSP's can possibly enable! (along with things like OBAN and specialized processors like BTE/VTE etc)

 

[aegies]

If you guys don't want to believe that there's additional hardware to increase performance in meaningful ways in Durango, that's totally fine. You'll know soon enough whether some of us were full of shit or not.

There are constant rumours that the next Xbox will require an always-on internet connection.

I haven't heard that, nor do I expect it, for either.

 

[CLEEK]

MS can use the CLOUD as well as other devices connected to your network to help render audio/video/media on the xbox.

Xbox Surface/ Xbox Lite/ Phone with Durango chips/ PC with Durango bits/Xbox live (cloud) can all work together to possibly render an avatar like game .. Maybe Xbox lite on its own isn't powerful enough BUT with other devices and the cloud it is..

That's what DSP's can possibly enable! (along with things like OBAN and specialized processors like BTE/VTE etc)

This is *exactly* what Krazy Ken talked about with the PS3 and Cell. Cell chips in your console, TV, fridge, toaster all working an parallel for local and cloud based grid computing.

Look how that turned out.

 

[coldfoot]

MS can use the CLOUD as well as other devices connected to your network to help render audio/video/media on the xbox.

Xbox Surface/ Xbox Lite/ Phone with Durango chips/ PC with Durango bits/Xbox live (cloud) can all work together to possibly render an avatar like game .. Maybe Xbox lite on its own isn't powerful enough BUT with other devices and the cloud it is..

That's what DSP's can possibly enable! (along with things like OBAN and specialized processors like BTE/VTE etc)

Asyymetrical rendering with super weak tablet/phone chips is pointless and very inefficient. Much better if they let you daisy chain 4 durango's through the hdmi in port and each render a quarter of the number of pixels at one time and overlay them.

 

[liquidboy]

What if you don't have internet? (for any reason)

It could be any device connected on your network (phone/tablet/pc etc) as long as they can participate in the flow/processing of information then they can contribute. Normally it means these devices would need to have Durango like chips with these DSP's etc in them BUT I guess that's the plan. MS wants its ecosystem filled with these beastily CHIPs that all work together to render scenes etc..

 

[Ramblin]

There are constant rumours that the next Xbox will require an always-on internet connection.

It will require an always-on internet to keep up with the constant rumours...it's part of the Neogaf Chip, it streams the latest gaf comments about the game you're playing to the screen on your controller.

 

[onQ123]

Tech dudes! Can someone shed some light on this:

1. The clock speed of the CPU. I see people shouting "the architecture is different!" but what exactly do you mean? I'd like someone to flesh this out.

2. 8GB DDR3 vs 4GB DDR5. The latter is obviously faster, but in a real world scenario, which is better? More ram, or faster ram?

if the 8GB of DDR3 & 4GB GDDR5 was going heads up in the same system I would say 4GB of GDDR5


at 60FPS DDR3 with 68GB/s bandwidth would be able to pull in 1.13GB each frame from the pool of 8GB of Ram & 2.26GB each frame at 30FPS

vs

4GB of GDDR5 with 192GB/s being able to pull 3.2GB each frame at 60FPS from a pool of 4GB of Ram

the 4GB ram will bottleneck at 30FPS because at 192GB/s the GDDR5 could be pulling in 6.4GB/s each frame at 30FPS but it will only be 4GB in the pool of Ram.



PS: this is not facts just my random thinking of how it would work

 

[professor_t]

I'm pretty confident we'll see a similar situation to this Gen, but far closer.

Each console will have its development advantages and disadvantages compared to the other.

I reckon the multiplats will be far closer to parity than current ones are.

Given how close this gen was, I don't see how next gen could be far closer. Sure, Xbox had an edge in multiplatform games, but it was generally a marginal advantage. And the PS3 probably took the title for best visuals with a few of its first party efforts, but the best stuff for Xbox came pretty damn close.

'Far closer' would mean almost no discernible difference in the vast majority of games, and we probably shouldn't expect that to happen (particularly because of what you said -- each platform will have its share of advantages and shortcomings).

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

MS can use the CLOUD as well as other devices connected to your network to help render audio/video/media on the xbox.

Xbox Surface/ Xbox Lite/ Phone with Durango chips/ PC with Durango bits/Xbox live (cloud) can all work together to possibly render an avatar like game .. Maybe Xbox lite on its own isn't powerful enough BUT with other devices and the cloud it is..

That's what DSP's can possibly enable! (along with things like OBAN and specialized processors like BTE/VTE etc)

This sounds like something I want no part of.

 

[Valnen]

If you guys don't want to believe that there's additional hardware to increase performance in meaningful ways in Durango, that's totally fine. You'll know soon enough whether some of us were full of shit or not.

I believe, I'm just curious to what degree that increase is, and what the final outcome will be for both systems in terms of power. I assume that information won't be here for months, though.

 

[XtremeXpider]

It could be any device connected on your network (phone/tablet/pc etc) as long as they can participate in the flow/processing of information then they can contribute. Normally it means these devices would need to have Durango like chips with these DSP's etc in them BUT I guess that's the plan. MS wants its ecosystem filled with these beastily CHIPs that all work together to render scenes etc..

What if I don't own another device? What if I'm running out of battery?

 

[CLEEK]

If you guys don't want to believe that there's additional hardware to increase performance in meaningful ways in Durango, that's totally fine. You'll know soon enough whether some of us were full of shit or not.

I don't think people are denying they exist.

Just people are questioning how much of an impact these additional components will have in real terms.

I have no opinion on the matter. I understand how various game specific hardware could have enormous benefit (Mode 7!), but they could also just assist a little bit too.

The real test, as always, will be when actual first party games are shown.

 

[Baconsammy]

If you guys don't want to believe that there's additional hardware to increase performance in meaningful ways in Durango, that's totally fine. You'll know soon enough whether some of us were full of shit or not.

Emphasized the key words. Welcome to system wars circa 2013. What are the chances we don't fully know the specs of the system until it's finally released and someone does a teardown? Isn't that what happened with the Wii U?

 

[surly]

MS can use the CLOUD as well as other devices connected to your network to help render audio/video/media on the xbox.

Xbox Surface/ Xbox Lite/ Phone with Durango chips/ PC with Durango bits/Xbox live (cloud) can all work together to possibly render an avatar like game .. Maybe Xbox lite on its own isn't powerful enough BUT with other devices and the cloud it is..

That's what DSP's can possibly enable! (along with things like OBAN and specialized processors like BTE/VTE etc)

Thanks! I kind of understand it now, lol.

 

[coldfoot]

if the 8GB of DDR3 & 4GB GDDR5 was going heads up in the same system I would say 4GB of GDDR5


at 60FPS DDR3 with 68GB/s bandwidth would be able to pull in 1.13GB each frame from the pool of 8GB of Ram & 2.26GB each frame at 30FPS

vs

4GB of GDDR5 with 192GB/s being able to pull 3.2GB each frame at 60FPS from a pool of 4GB of Ram

the 4GB ram will bottleneck at 30FPS because at 192GB/s the GDDR5 could be pulling in 6.4GB/s each frame at 30FPS but it will only be 4GB in the pool of Ram.

You can easily pull 6.4 GB/s per frame with a 4GB memory pool.

 

[liquidboy]

This sounds like something I want no part of.

Don't worry it's all just theoretical and in patents, far from reality. BUT DSP's enables that, that's all

 

[i-Lo]

if the 8GB of DDR3 & 4GB GDDR5 was going heads up in the same system I would say 4GB of GDDR5


at 60FPS DDR3 with 68GB/s bandwidth would be able to pull in 1.13GB each frame from the pool of 8GB of Ram & 2.26GB each frame at 30FPS

vs

4GB of GDDR5 with 192GB/s being able to pull 3.2GB each frame at 60FPS from a pool of 4GB of Ram

the 4GB ram will bottleneck at 30FPS because at 192GB/s the GDDR5 could be pulling in 6.4GB/s each frame at 30FPS but it will only be 4GB in the pool of Ram.



PS: this is not facts just my random thinking of how it would work

I see more of third parties drawing up a target and then achieving results by compromising either speed for capacity and capacity for speed (one method for each platform) to come to nearly identical ports running at the same resolution and framerate. At least, I hope so.

 

[Margalis]

Basically if you have several devices with these MS Durango chips in them (with these monstrous DSP bits) then they can all work together to process audio/video...

Kind of like how Cell chips in the same household would become pen pals and team up to form a super computer?

 

[NBtoaster]

if the 8GB of DDR3 & 4GB GDDR5 was going heads up in the same system I would say 4GB of GDDR5


at 60FPS DDR3 with 68GB/s bandwidth would be able to pull in 1.13GB each frame from the pool of 8GB of Ram & 2.26GB each frame at 30FPS

vs

4GB of GDDR5 with 192GB/s being able to pull 3.2GB each frame at 60FPS from a pool of 4GB of Ram

the 4GB ram will bottleneck at 30FPS because at 192GB/s the GDDR5 could be pulling in 6.4GB/s each frame at 30FPS but it will only be 4GB in the pool of Ram.



PS: this is not facts just my random thinking of how it would work

How does that make sense? You're not emptying the RAM every frame.

 

[Codeblew]

For those that don't want to read the patent...

These DSP's coupled with a brilliant memory setup and high-bandwidth/low-latency BUS. Can lead to some very interesting cloud (external host) processing of content/signals. So you stream audio/video from the box to other devices in your home or even the cloud and its processed on those external devices. The result is then returned to your Xbox (the host) and continues on to be renderd.

Pretty much future proofs the Xbox if its done right!

I am not sure what you are saying here. Cloud is basically just a PR word for internet/network. Are you saying the xbox will send data to the internet/lan to be rendered and sent back to the xbox? And you think this is better bandwidth than from one chip to another on a circuit board? Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying...

 

[PhatSaqs]

guys don't want to believe.

Pretty much this. The majority in this thread are ready and willing to jump all over anything relating to Orbis being >>>>>> than Durango. lmfao.

 

[EatChildren]

Does not help that they are either employed by Microsoft or their sources are instead. Perhaps the conjecture from GAF sources should be coupled with more concrete backing from now on or something? I mean, the whole secret sauce thing is so vague and amiss at this point..

I do find it funny that Steve and Thuway, two people who were largely disregarded long ago, seemed to be so accurate with information, and so early on too.

Hasn't Thuway also endorsed the notion that Orbis and Durango are closer in performance than they seem on paper?

 

[Man-is-Obsolete]

Don't worry it's all just theoretical and in patents, far from reality. BUT DSP's enables that, that's all

Lol, I just hate using internet and wifi for things if I can avoid it. Would much rather have things hardwired and available locally. Though I understand I am becoming increasingly in the minority, I can't tell you how much it drives me crazy when people ask me about wireless home audio speakers, but that is a market that is emerging and new tech is being introduced every year.