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[Snubbers]

1. You think MS won't have a tools advantage, lol. MS tools will be better.

I've heard ERP (works for Sony) acknowledges the tools where pap, but the gap has all but closed..
http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1695338&postcount=19011

2. The 3gb of ram thing is just speculation, rather stupid speculation, full windows does not need that much ram so xbox 720 won't need anywhere near that much.

Speculation is all we have, but the speculation at least comes from supposedly informed sources.. And considering the STB (HDMI IN?) idea, the whole 'apps running in the background' and other such ideas from credible sources, it's safe to assume resources for all these are very much more then required for Orbis

WTF are you talking about, the special sauce is used to enhance graphics, nothing else.

3 Blocks where rumoured, and 3 blocks have been shown in this current 'leak'.. Audio and Video being two of them, neither enhance graphics, unless you assume that Orbis has zero video or audio H/W Acceleration (not to mention it's extra general compute unit(s).. Data movers seem like bandwidth boosters, which are quite different to anything overtly saucy (considering the bandwidth difference in the first place)..

This is why Tools are important, and nobody is better than MS when it comes to tools. And so far all the insiders have said they have heard that the 720 is easier to dev for.

Really? I'm open to having my mind changed, but I think this Gen has forced Sony to man up and sort their tools out, to the point I believe ERP in saying the tools gap is all but closed..

As for the rest, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The rest is opinion, and we are all entitled to one.. Mine is based on the direction I think MS are taking.. I'll be happy to be wrong, it's only my spin on how I think it'll pan out..

Kinect will not be a mega focus, MS can already tell from the last few years that while it initially was a huge success, it is not selling that well and neither are the games. It will still be there for the people that actually like it, but MS has said time and time again that they are looking to focus more on core games.

"NUI Always Present" and Kinect 2.0 talk with 'more fidelity' etc tells me they have dedicated far more then necessary to this side of things..
Just look at the architecture, they are spending resource on HDMI IN, specific kinect interface, having a 'video' block in their architecture (which clearly isn't just the normal HW accelerated video decoding, that's a given)..
When MS say they are looking to focus on core games, it's just words at this time..

I desperately want the 720 to be relatively equal in core gaming terms, it'd be my console of choice, but I want 1080p60 with decent AA and some bump in texture quality and IQ in general.. that's a stretch for Orbis that is pretty much 100% focussed (18CU's, 4Gb GDDR5 with little resource taken for 'fluff'), I have a forboding sense that we will get a much larger disparity in either resolution, framerate or texture/geometry elements this gen then last..

 

[acm2000]

Do they have newer updates?

of course not, it seems all these leaks come from the same dated sources, ms and sony are in lock down

3gb of ram taken by os is most likely dev kit usage, debugger running etc

so many people on this forum are so batshit nuts looking at some of the posts in this thread

 

[Zabka]

That's what I get out of it too, so I don't know why Durango's GPU is now a massive disappointmend compared to the Orbis GPU, or have I missed some setup.

Unless there's some amazing magic chips hidden in Durango this is a bigger power difference than the PS3 and 360.

For two systems possibly coming out in the same quarter that is very weird. Now imagine that every Durango comes with a Kinect so the price is similar.

 

[Ashes]

of course not, it seems all these leaks come from the same dated sources, ms and sony are in lock down

3gb of ram taken by os is most likely dev kit usage, debugger running etc

so many people on this forum are so batshit nuts looking at some of the posts in this thread

ha ha.

 

[NBtoaster]

They are only disappointing relative to any modern gaming PC. For the console space, with the base cost, heat/tdp restrictions involved and the reliability factors (along with the knowledge that die shrinks are going to be a much harder proposal this generation, and BoM going to some other non-standard device inclusions) the "1.8tf" theoretical peak figure was about the best you could expect out of these consoles and will provide you with great results in these customized SoCs.

I've been saying that for a while now, though.

The 7850 (1.8tf) and 7770 (1.2tf) are still quite capable components. They both make a strong gaming PC, though not the highest end.

7970m is also way better than any AMD 2011 laptop component.

 

[mrklaw]

TiVo never has to worry about you trying to play your downloaded copy of Halo 5 while it's doing that. Microsoft have to be careful to maintain the integrity of the recording, the stream AND the gameplay all at the same time, even when all want to access the HDD simultaneously.

My point is that Tivo does that with very little RAM and CPU resources. Of course you'd need to reserve some CPU on Durango but that would still leave plenty for gaming.

And Tivo needs guaranteed quality of service on the streams too, you don't want failed recordings.

DVRs aren't magic and don't need special sauce - with modern broadcasting being precompressed digital streams they are just pretty file servers.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

of course not, it seems all these leaks come from the same dated sources, ms and sony are in lock down

3gb of ram taken by os is most likely dev kit usage, debugger running etc

so many people on this forum are so batshit nuts looking at some of the posts in this thread

Devkit has afaik 12 GB, debugger and other dev tools probably run in those additional 4 GB. And the 3 GB is not only for OS, so idk why people compare this to Windows RAM usage. It is not just for the OS, it is also for apps, kinect and all their additional rumored features.

 

[Toski]

That's what I get out of it too, so I don't know why Durango's GPU is now a massive disappointmend compared to the Orbis GPU, or have I missed some setup.

Microsoft probably spent a lot of money customizing their chipset. If controlling the living room doesn't pan out for them, and consumers choose the PS4 as their "do it all box" because it puts prettier pictures/better IQ on screen; what does MS do?

 

[shinra-bansho]

3 Blocks where rumored, and 3 blocks have been shown in this current 'leak'..

Apparently there are four blocks now...?

 

[derFeef]

Microsoft probably spent a lot of money customizing their chipset. If controlling the living room doesn't pan out for them, and consumers choose the PS4 as their "do it all box" because it puts prettier pictures/better IQ on screen; what does MS do?

If they want to be successful with this in Europe then they are screwed. Besides XB Music I am not getting any services here so why would I care if they make it a living room box? Their plan seems flawed, if true.

 

[Petrichor]

Microsoft probably spent a lot of money customizing their chipset. If controlling the living room doesn't pan out for them, and consumers choose the PS4 as their "do it all box" because it puts prettier pictures/better IQ on screen; what does MS do?

When was the last time the most powerful console "won" a console generation?

 

[Brad Grenz]

My point is that Tivo does that with very little RAM and CPU resources. Of course you'd need to reserve some CPU on Durango but that would still leave plenty for gaming.

And Tivo needs guaranteed quality of service on the streams too, you don't want failed recordings.

DVRs aren't magic and don't need special sauce - with modern broadcasting being precompressed digital streams they are just pretty file servers.

Yeah, cause they're built knowing exactly how fast and reliable their disk access will be. That could be incredibly variable on a game console that is expected to record to, stream from and play a game from the same disk.

 

[StevieP]

Apparently there are four blocks now...?

 

[Hana-Bi]

So, with nine month old data, what are the chances MS stepped up the game? Sony did adjust their GPU and RAM according to some insiders here "recently" but what does this "recently" stand for and can MS adjust the 720 again or is this out of the question?

I mean all the insiders here said those specs are "accurate" but what did MS do in those nine months?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

When was the last time the most powerful console "won" a console generation?

The situation is a lot different when we compare two companies which had parity last gen and which launch at about the same time.

 

[Snubbers]

Why would that be a given (the last console that had hw-accelerated video was PS2), and what would be the benefit of having it if it's really just for media-box functionality?

It doesn't actually matter, video is only needed for media playback or video cut-scenes in games.. I presume it's either a CU based activity, or dedicated H264 decoders (etc).. it's covered in spades in any console..

What I'm saying is that MS's Video block isn't surely just for normal video decoding, with HDMI IN and the talk of STB functionality, my opinion is that the video block is there to support that (PIP/Overlay, etc, etc).. It was clearly worth it's own block in the architectural diagram (in the APU region), and I fail to see what core gaming benefit that silicon will produce over an extra CU or whatever you could do with that same silicon..

I do actually see 'remote play' as something that might appeal to me.. being able to play some games on my tablet/phone might be useful.. but I'd pay extra for those.. I don't want remote play (as just one off the wall example) meaning my games will be that little bit less glitzy or lower framerate, etc.. if MS think those features are really 'worthwhile'.. charge slightly more and have them in addition to a full core game performance..

 

[iamshadowlark]

I am not a dev or a techie, but why is 1.3tflops "disappointing", while 1,8tflop is "awesome"?
Both seem relatively mild. And are those numbers achievable in the real world?

Anything 2tflop and over is certainly not disappointing in a closed box. And PS4 should hit that(1.8gpu + CPU + Extra CU).

 

[Gemüsepizza]

So, with nine month old data, what are the chances MS stepped up the game? Sony did adjust their GPU and RAM according to some insiders here "recently" but what does this "recently" stand for and can MS adjust the 720 again or is this out of the question?

I mean all the insiders here said those specs are "accurate" but what did MS do in those nine months?

I don't think they can change the chips anymore. They have to be finalised for tests and production. They could maybe increase clock speed, but that would require better cooling, and I am not sure if this is viable with this chip design, because everything is on one chip. Or they could increase the amount of RAM, but because the Xbox already has 8 GB, I don't think that is an option or will increase performance.

 

[darkistheway]

Why are so many people getting Durango's name wrong.

Durante is cooler than Durango

And the 3 GB is not only for OS, so idk why people compare this to Windows RAM usage. It is not just for the OS, it is also for apps, kinect and all their additional rumored features.

People just don't get this point. It falls on dear ears because they want all the RAM to go towards the games. They don't realize that Microsoft is trying to appeal to an audience beyond hardcore-gamer-early-adopter types. As is Sony, as is Nintendo.

 

[Toski]

When was the last time the most powerful console "won" a console generation?

There's a first time for everything (although I think the SNES was overall more powerful than the Genesis). The Wii U isn't flying off shelves (and I don't think it will anytime soon). With Orbis and Durango launching so close to each other, and if Orbis does have a real world advantage, I don't think that bodes well for MS. If MS plans on pushing media services combined with the currently structured Xbox Live Gold paywall, I don't see Durango having a good future.

 

[StevieP]

There's a first time for everything (although I think the SNES was overall more powerful than the Genesis). The Wii U isn't flying off shelves (and I don't think it will anytime soon). With Orbis and Durango launching so close to each other, and if Orbis does have a real world advantage, I don't think that bodes well for MS. If MS plans on pushing media services combined with the currently structured Xbox Live Gold paywall, I don't see Durango having a good future.

Us dedicated gaming enthusiasts are never, and will never, be the drivers of whether a system is "the most" succesful or not (yes, this includes for graphics). GAF has a rather myopic view of the world, tbh.
Software, software, software. Services, mass market pricing and interest, appeal and "hook" - these things are all more important.

 

[Joe White]

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that I can't see these specs as a huge disappointment. Three consoles around the level of the Wii-U would've been a huge disappointment but both Durango and Orbis have me salivating at the prospects for the next generation of consoles.

I can't see these rumored specs as disappointment mainly because I've learned that I can't tell from the specs what the system is capable of. I have to see the games, controls and features in action. I mean, we have console from 2005 in our living room that can still wow me and my wife (for me it was some usual moment in latest Halo where things just clicked and for my wife it was ability to say "xbox pause" during Dance Central 3). Even if Durango or Orbis will have less processing power than my current pc-setup: i5-3570, GTX660 etc. I can't perceive them disappointing before seeing actual results.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

There's a first time for everything (although I think the SNES was overall more powerful than the Genesis)

It wasn't more powerful than the Neo Geo, though. If consumers choose PS4 as their all-in-one box over the next Xbox, it won't be because of the possible prettier pictures.

 

[ThisWreckage]

I fully expect Microsoft to raise the price of Xbox Live each month. Sony could seriously undercut them if they keep PSN free and offer PS+ as an option.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Us dedicated gaming enthusiasts are never, and will never, be the drivers of whether a system is "the most" succesful or not (yes, this includes for graphics). GAF has a rather myopic view of the world, tbh.
Software, software, software. Services, mass market pricing and interest, appeal and "hook" - these things are all more important.

Hyper enthusiast gamers that buy all the new tech and have 50+ games/system aren't the majority of the market, sure.

But by equal measure the gaming industry wasn't built on the backs of what people are now use the term "casual gamers" to refer to, as some would imply. The PS2 wasn't driven to its zenith by SingStar.

Likewise the idea that "graphics don't matter" is overplayed. Graphics, as part of software, will definitely be a driver - for both the dedicated enthusiast gamer and the rest of the traditional market.

 

[PaulLFC]

I fully expect Microsoft to raise the price of Xbox Live each month. Sony could seriously undercut them if they keep PSN free and offer PS+ as an option.

Sony would be mad not to do that. Keep the "PSN free / PS+ pay" model, make PS+ more attractive if you need/want to to generate extra subs, but keep online play free. It's a big draw for them.

 

[Feindflug]

If they want to be successful with this in Europe then they are screwed. Besides XB Music I am not getting any services here so why would I care if they make it a living room box? Their plan seems flawed, if true.

Probably buy a lot of 3rd party exclusive games/timed exclusives to make their platform charming to the core audience even if it's relatively weaker than the PS4? sounds pretty crazy as we're past the times of the 3rd party exclusives for quite some time now but who knows.

The thing I don't get about Durango's lower than the competition specs is that having the best versions of 3rd party titles for 90% of the time really helped the 360 this gen, why abandon this with Durango if the PS4 is significantly stronger and will probably get the best versions most of the time? sounds like a quite stupid decision to me.

 

[Toski]

Us dedicated gaming enthusiasts are never, and will never, be the drivers of whether a system is "the most" succesful or not (yes, this includes for graphics). GAF has a rather myopic view of the world, tbh.
Software, software, software. Services, mass market pricing and interest, appeal and "hook" - these things are all more important.

It wasn't more powerful than the Neo-Geo, though. If consumers choose PS4 as their all-in-one box over the next Xbox, it won't be because of the possible prettier pictures.

I have a feeling that word of mouth is why the 360 did well compared to its predecessor, and why Wii U is where its at. The perception of the 360 was waffling at the start, but Moore, Bach & Allard were able to make it mostly positive. If Mattrick and Harrison can't sell the Durango like those 3 did...

I am skeptical if any one black box can control a living room. A couch controls the living room (and makes Kinect viable or not depending on the size/setup of the room).

The thing I don't get about Durango's lower than the competition specs is that having the best versions of 3rd party titles for 90% of the time really helped the 360 this gen, why abandon this with Durango if the PS4 is significantly stronger and will probably get the best versions most of the time? sounds like a quite stupid decision to me.

I believe that is why the 360 was as successful as it was, and it still wasn't enough globally. Maybe MS is looking at that and thinking that "good enough" kept the PS3 afloat, why not Durango?

 

[FlutterPuffs]

When was the last time the most powerful console "won" a console generation?

Well, I'm only buying the most powerful console since it will best signify how big my penis is.

Seriously though, MS might still win this round if Sony doesn't buck up marketing wise. Everything else looks great (from the rumors) but for fucks sake, other than Kevin Butler, these guys have the worst marketing campaigns ever.

 

[JonathanPower]

Nah just wait till MS unveils the secret sauce. You'll see, you'll all see.

Yeah but what if PS4 secret sauce is Cell used as a DSP processor for audio/video, OS, and to help the CPU with vector intensive code? This would add 180 GFLOPS of additional power to the PS4, meaning that Orbis would wipe the floor with Durango. It would also ensure backwards compatibility.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Hyper enthusiast gamers that buy all the new tech and have 50+ games/system aren't the majority of the market, sure.

But by equal measure the gaming industry wasn't built on the backs of what people are now referring to as "casual gamers" as some would imply. The PS2 wasn't driven to its zenith by SingStar.

No, it was driven to its zenith by the Maddens, FIFAs and GTAs. Yes, graphics do matter to some extent, but for the majority of people it's enough that the game looks subjectively good, they're not bothered that the game may look even slightly better on another system. Otherwise PS2 could never truly compete, even in the beginning when mature Dreamcast games looked more refined than its launch titles.

 

[Petrichor]

Well, I'm only buying the most powerful console since it will best signify how big my penis is.

Seriously though, MS might still win this round if Sony doesn't buck up marketing wise. Everything else looks great (from the rumors) but for fucks sake, other than Kevin Butler, these guys have the worst marketing campaigns ever.

This generation will be won, as ever, on offering consumers a new and unique value proposition that will appeal to the masses - so calling a victor before either Sony or Microsoft have announced their major selling points is a little premature. If Microsoft fails to convince people that the 720 (or whatever appellation they end up with) can do things that the 360 can't, they'll be in trouble. Likewise, if Sony just make a console which offers prettier graphics with little else in the way of compelling features, we could have another Vita on our hands.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Probably buy a lot of 3rd party exclusive games/timed exclusives to make their platform charming to the core audience even if it's relatively weaker than the PS4? sounds pretty crazy as we're past the times of the 3rd party exclusives for quite some time now but who knows.

The thing I don't get about Durango's lower than the competition specs is that having the best versions of 3rd party titles for 90% of the time really helped the 360 this gen, why abandon this with Durango if the PS4 is significantly stronger and will probably get the best versions most of the time? sounds like a quite stupid decision to me.

I hate that strategy. Timed exclusives are questionable. It sounds like something Microsoft would do, but I think most of your core gamers are going to be there day one and those very core gamers will buy consoles based on exclusives.

 

[szaromir]

Us dedicated gaming enthusiasts are never, and will never, be the drivers of whether a system is "the most" succesful or not (yes, this includes for graphics). GAF has a rather myopic view of the world, tbh.
Software, software, software. Services, mass market pricing and interest, appeal and "hook" - these things are all more important.

True, but it's still interesting to consider implications. With MS conceding HW edge to Sony, it's still fair to assume all 3rd party games will land on both platforms. So the differences will probably amount to image quality, higher precision of shader effects etc. Will your average Call of Duty, FIFA or GTA gamer care? Possibly.
As far as first party go, both machines will probably be able to output eg. Killzone or Halo with very shiny and impressive visuals, the difference being intangible to most people. Still, with Sony devs traditionally having higher emphasis on production values, maybe Sony will create the perception that their machine offers experience of incredible fidelity and details.

 

[Fried Food]

Is this the first time game consoles will have been produced basically with off the shelf computer components?

 

[acm2000]

Yeah but what if PS4 secret sauce is Cell used as a DSP processor for audio/video, OS, and to help the CPU with vector intensive code? This would add 180 GFLOPS of additional power to the PS4, meaning that Orbis would wipe the floor with Durango. It would also ensure backwards compatibility.

it would also kill sony

 

[Phire Phox]

Is this the first time game consoles will have been produced basically with off the shelf computer components?

AFAIK, the OG Xbox was pretty much using PC hardware. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Without a significant time to market or price advantage, I doubt Microsoft will find a lot of third party exclusives that are even for sale. Certainly not from the big publishers, or even from most major independent developers. Maybe they can find some more marginal projects and teams to fund, but they'll be defacto 2nd party titles and not sure fire hits from "big" names.

it would also kill sony

Not really. 6-8 SPEs at 28nm would take up a pretty modest amount of die space on the APU. They wouldn't even need to expose it to developers, just provide audio, video and other features with an API. You could get audio processing, video scaling, compression, decompression, free MLAA, or even accelerated physics all for "free", plus backwards compatibility and robust security.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Yeah but what if PS4 secret sauce is Cell used as a DSP processor for audio/video and to help the CPU with vector intensive code? This would add 180 GFLOPS of additional power to the PS4, meaning that Orbis would wipe the floor with Durango. It would also ensure backwards compatibility.

If you're thinking about PS4's "bespoke compute unit" , I don't think DSP is quite the right term for it. I do think its full of SIMD units for more raw power though because,

1) Sony hasn't really designed a console with out them

and

2) Sony's CTO interview a while ago.

Don't know about BC at all.

it would also kill sony

Uh why?

 

[Biggzy]

Is this the first time game consoles will have been produced basically with off the shelf computer components?

Hello original Xbox.

 

[paradise_circus]

Yeah but what if PS4 secret sauce is Cell used as a DSP processor for audio/video, OS, and to help the CPU with vector intensive code? This would add 180 GFLOPS of additional power to the PS4, meaning that Orbis would wipe the floor with Durango. It would also ensure backwards compatibility.

that sounds really cool and iirc the ps2 used the ps1 cpu for sound or bc. but i guess, that some good audio dsp would cost much less in production and the tdp would be much more less. even toshiba (and sony) gave up on their cell chips for their premium tvs, because of the heat.

 

[acm2000]

Uh why?

they really cant afford to take a huge loss on each console like they did ps3, hence the off the shelf parts, theyre reigning in costs everywhere

 

[Polo67]

Without a significant time to market or price advantage, I doubt Microsoft will find a lot of third party exclusives that are even for sale. Certainly not from the big publishers, or even from most major independent developers. Maybe they can find some more marginal projects and teams to fund, but they'll be defacto 2nd party titles and not sure fire hits from "big" names.



Not really. 6-8 SPEs at 28nm would take up a pretty modest amount of die space on the APU. They wouldn't even need to expose it to developers, just provide audio, video and other features with an API. You could get audio processing, video scaling, compression, decompression, free MLAA, or even accelerated physics all for "free", plus backwards compatibility and robust security.

MS has Rare and I have a strong feeling they will be making a strong comeback next gen

 

[shinra-bansho]

No, it was driven to its zenith by the Maddens, FIFAs and GTAs. Yes, graphics do matter to some extent, but for the majority of people it's enough that the game looks subjectively good, they're not bothered that the game may look even slightly better on another system. Otherwise PS2 could never truly compete, even in the beginning when mature Dreamcast games looked more refined than its launch titles.

On the bolded, I completely agree. But there seems to be this myth that perpetuates that the Wii won this generation for the same reasons/by targeting the same market as the PS2 or PS1 etc.

Regarding graphics, I was largely referring to them as a major driver of new generational adoption, rather than as necessarily the strongest intragenerational selling point. With the exception of the Wii (and now the Wii U) consoles of yore were sold on the promise of what new hardware power could offer, on better graphics and greater realism.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

This generation will be won, as ever, on offering consumers a new and unique value proposition that will appeal to the masses - so calling a victor before either Sony or Microsoft have announced their major selling points is a little premature. If Microsoft fails to convince people that the 720 (or whatever appellation they end up with) can do things that the 360 can't, they'll be in trouble. Likewise, if Sony just make a console which offers prettier graphics with little else in the way of compelling features, we could have another Vita on our hands.

I don't think that's the reason why Vita is tanking. Buying one though, seeing as it has more of the games that I want.

 

[iamshadowlark]

they really cant afford to take a huge loss on each console like they did ps3, hence the off the shelf parts, theyre reigning in costs everywhere

Who says they are taking a loss? People really need to stop jumping to conclusions. PS4 sounds relatively cheap.

 

[Leflus]

MS has Rare and I have a strong feeling they will be making a strong comeback next gen

I don't know about that, but I think it's safe to assume that they're working on something other than Kinect Sports.

 

[Brad Grenz]

MS has Rare and I have a strong feeling they will be making a strong comeback next gen

Good luck with that.

Who says they are taking a loss? People really need to stop jumping to conclusions. PS4 sounds relatively cheap.

Agreed. Nothing about the Orbis specs suggest something that can't be sold for under $400.

 

[Busty]

You guise understand that all this 'secret sauce tech' stuff is almost certainly bollocks right?

It's all smoke and mirrors to make these new consoles seem like an unknown quantity when in fact there is nothing 'secret sauce' about them.

Srsly guise. Srsly.

I don't know about that, but I think it's safe to assume that they're working on something other than Kinect Sports.

You're right.

Spoiler

Kinect Sports 2

MS has Rare and I have a strong feeling they will be making a strong comeback next gen

Rare still alive?

BINGO!

My self delusion score card is full up. What do I win?

 

[Feindflug]

I believe that is why the 360 was as successful as it was, and it still wasn't enough globally. Maybe MS is looking at that and thinking that "good enough" kept the PS3 afloat, why not Durango?

Yes but by losing the "better multiplatform version most of the time" card they will be in an even worse position as far as the core audience goes in the majority of Europe as they lose a selling point.

Also keep in mind that besides the UK the rest of Europe severely lacks features in Live, marketing is weak and Xbox as a whole is way behind in brand recognition when compared to the Playstation here.

By not caring for this they simply make their platform less charming to a market that's not the most friendly to them.