VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

Just for the record, not everyone. There were some people, including myself, who questioned gaming_noob's proclamation.

I thought so as well, but that type of accusation, whether joking or not, should be avoided. Trying to fraudulently poison the well... it benefits no one.

To be fair, he discredits himself with posts asking to ban people that he doesn't agree with, wizard jizz jokes and cherry picking post he feels are in line with his preferences. Hardly a balanced person that looks at all the info.

Then use those merits as reasons to discredit him, not "joking" or "lying" about the poster.

Also, I coined that wizard jizz term.

I'm proud of it.
 
Between the Sony fans wishing and hoping for the special sauce to be nothing, the ban begging, the discrediting of "sources", and the slandering, you'd think this was an E3 thread. Good times. I just read what amounted to a 4 page-slap fight when all I wanted was new rumors. Shhhhhh. Keep it down. I can't hear the rumors.
 
To be fair, he discredits himself with posts asking to ban people that he doesn't agree with, wizard jizz jokes and cherry picking post he feels are in line with his preferences. Hardly a balanced person that looks at all the info.
i only asked to ban proelite, he gives false information and people treat his words as gospel.
this is proelite in november:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43932120&postcount=1199

hes no better than gaming_noob imo.
 
It probably is. I doubt that it's gonna be used as cache and it looks quite similar to eDRAM in X360 which was backbuffer.

And it seems to me that small size could lead to tilling galore.

except this time its connected to cpu and gpu, so is freely available to use as you wish
 
i only asked to ban proelite, he gives false information and people treat his words as gospel.
this is proelite in november:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43932120&postcount=1199

hes no better than gaming_noob imo.
This is the last thing I'm going to say about this, because it's not integral to the discussion had in this thread.

Even if you think that way, there is no need to call out of a ban. Let it be, let people believe what they want to believe and if they get burned it is their own fault.
 
except this time its connected to cpu and gpu, so is freely available to use as you wish

True, but what's the point of converting eSRAM into L3 cache? If you take a part of it for that purpose (if such a "split allocation" was possible), your IQ immediately takes a hit (smaller backbuffer).

@deanos, yeah, Proelite was waaaaaay off for someone who claims to be legit, but don't burned yourself with this. When consoles are officially announced we'll see who was legit and who was full of it.
 
Between the Sony fans wishing and hoping for the special sauce to be nothing, the ban begging, the discrediting of "sources", and the slandering, you'd think this was an E3 thread. Good times. I just read what amounted to a 4 page-slap fight when all I wanted was new rumors. Shhhhhh. Keep it down. I can't hear the rumors.

I think at times though some people confuse what a fanboy is and whats a disgruntled customer.

I have brought both xbox products at launch and quite frankly, the route MS have been going down in the last few years have been awful. There is little resemblance between why I was originally attracted to the xbox brand to what its like now.

These hardware rumours are only causing my concern to grow, as it looks very much that MS have sacrificed internal power for kinect. Yet all I hear from MS diehards is that I should put my faith in some special sauce's

However, this special sauce nonsense sounds very much like a unicorn thats made up by MS marketers
 
I have brought both xbox products at launch and quite frankly, the route MS have been going down in the last few years have been awful. There is little resemblance between why I was originally attracted to the xbox brand to what its like now.

Nonsense like this should not be in this thread TBH.

Anyway... going to be fun to see the final specs... going to be a lot of people with red faces.
 
I think at times though some people confuse what a fanboy is and whats a disgruntled customer.

I have brought both xbox products at launch and quite frankly, the route MS have been going down in the last few years have been awful. There is little resemblance between why I was originally attracted to the xbox brand to what its like now.

These hardware rumours are only causing my concern to grow, as it looks very much that MS have sacrificed internal power for kinect. Yet all I hear from MS diehards is that I should put my faith in some special sauce's

However, this special sauce nonsense sounds very much like a unicorn thats made up by MS marketers

Who cares what MS fans say? Listen to the devs. They're apparently pleased. Do you think they'd be happy if MS went with weak crap and focused on motion gaming? As for their direction, it's called marketing to the masses. They hit the hardcore for the first years, then had great success with Kinect while still providing core with the big franchises, tons of XBLA titles, and the absolute best third party support. Sounds like good business.
 
Nonsense like this should not be in this thread TBH.

Anyway... going to be fun to see the final specs... going to be a lot of people with red faces.

Sorry you may feel that way but you cant deny that MS have been extremely focused on kinect and services the last few years. The last few E3 performances prove that alone.

Now you may approve of that approach but to call it nonsense when someone doesn't like it, is simple being narrow minded. Especially when these leaks show its more than likely MS are going to continue with the same strategy
 
Sorry you may feel that way but you cant deny that MS have been extremely focused on kinect and services the last few years. The last few E3 performances prove that alone.

Now you may approve of that approach but to call it nonsense when someone doesn't like it, is simple being narrow minded. Especially when these leaks show its more than likely MS are going to continue with the same strategy

The good thing is, E3 does not dedicate the games I play on MS's system. It's not a margin at all and frankly last year was much better.
 
Sorry you may feel that way but you cant deny that MS have been extremely focused on kinect and services the last few years. The last few E3 performances prove that alone.

Now you may approve of that approach but to call it nonsense when someone doesn't like it, is simple being narrow minded. Especially when these leaks show its more than likely MS are going to continue with the same strategy

I understand the complaint and the issue, but doesn't it make sense to market your console to those who might otherwise not be interested if they consider it as only a gaming machine - basically, the casual masses who bought a wii and wanted to upgrade.

it makes perfect sense from a business standpoint and I feel you shouldn't allow their direction the past couple of years influence how you think the next gen will start. they will come out guns blazing for core gamers. if they don't, I'll be right there alongside you damning them for abandoning / sweeping aside the core that helped support them from the very beginning.

basically, I understand your concerns, but don't let them influence how you view the durango until we actually see it revealed and we see the games, etc.
 
Who cares what MS fans say? Listen to the devs. They're apparently pleased. Do you think they'd be happy if MS went with weak crap and focused on motion gaming? As for their direction, it's called marketing to the masses. They hit the hardcore for the first years, then had great success with Kinect while still providing core with the big franchises, tons of XBLA titles, and the absolute best third party support. Sounds like good business.

Devs are pleased? Since when? People truly working on next gen software have been extremely silent and we've heard nothing from them. Everyone is afraid of breaking NDA.

Few devs that AFAIK have no involvement with Durango (Lottes, ERP from B3D) have analyzed most credible Durango rumors and their analysis has shown that Durango hardware is a slight dissapointment.

Even Proelite on B3D changed his tune and claimed that Orbis is the one that fits "supercomputer" description better.

So tell me again, which dev (not "secret source" or some EA manager that likes to hype shit) has stepped forward and said "wow, this is some great stuff because of ____ and ____"?

The point is that we have no idea what devs like and dislike in next gen. We'll have more info after official unveling when NDA barrier is removed and devs are free to speak.
 
True, but what's the point of converting eSRAM into L3 cache? If you take a part of it for that purpose (if such a "split allocation" was possible), your IQ immediately takes a hit (smaller backbuffer).

@deanos, yeah, Proelite was waaaaaay off for someone who claims to be legit, but don't burned yourself with this. When consoles are officially announced we'll see who was legit and who was full of it.

well 32mb is enough for 1080p 4xAA for "free" if they so wish, but at 1080p, a software based AA solution should be more than enough (with the much higher quality assets etc should avoid the horrible ps3 blur we had this gen), freeing up lots of that esram for other more exciting things.
 
i guess i can do that.

Back seating modding is sometimes frowned upon, so you do well in that regard...

Plus that was an Orbango prediction and kinda one that was taking the piss. :P

He's been on base sometimes with the durante stuff. Though we're yet to see what's what.
 
Devs are pleased? Since when? People truly working on next gen software have been extremely silent and we've heard nothing from them. Everyone is afraid of breaking NDA.

Few devs that AFAIK have no involvement with Durango (Lottes, ERP from B3D) have analyzed most credible Durango rumors and their analysis has shown that Durango hardware is a slight dissapointment.

Even Proelite on B3D changed his tune and claimed that Orbis is the one that fits "supercomputer" description better.

So tell me again, which dev (not "secret source" or some EA manager that likes to hype shit) has stepped forward and said "wow, this is some great stuff because of ____ and ____"?

The point is that we have no idea what devs like and dislike in next gen. We'll have more info after official unveling when NDA barrier is removed and devs are free to speak.

Complete nonsense, ERP has said nothing of the sort, besides the fact is we have only a very basic leak on what Durango is.
 
well 32mb is enough for 1080p 4xAA for "free" if they so wish, but at 1080p, a software based AA solution should be more than enough (with the much higher quality assets etc should avoid the horrible ps3 blur we had this gen), freeing up lots of that esram for other more exciting things.

You sure about that? I'll use 4X MSAA in this example:

Backbuffer = resolution * (color depth + z-buffer + AA)

Backbuffer = 1920*1080 * (32 + 32 + 96)

Backbuffer = 2073600 * 160 = ~39.55 MB/frame

So 4X MSAA is out of the question. 2X is perfectly doable (takes only ~27 MB per frame). Of course if my calculation is off, feel free to correct me (anyone).

But my question remains, why would you use eSRAM as L3 cache? What's the benefit from that (seriously, I'd like to know, maybe I'm missing something)?

we have only a very basic leak on what Durango is.

My mistake, I forgot that we are still expecting info on magical sauce/jizz that will save the day. I bow down in shame. Forgive me, I was out of line.
 
Complete nonsense, ERP has said nothing of the sort, besides the fact is we have only a very basic leak on what Durango is.

Thats part of the problem though. The leaks we have seen have been the base specs which pound for pound easily favours orbis.

Yet to many people are putting their faith in "special sauce's" based on a few posters who sound like an awful lot like viral marketers. GPU deficient, special sauce. Bandwidth deficient, special sauce.

Every time these leaks get ripped to shreds by the tech bods, these posters fall back on custom hardware which we know little about. Problem is custom hardware can be found in any closed system console ever released.

However, these are different because they are MAGIC!!!
 
Thats part of the problem though. The leaks we have seen have been the base specs which pound for pound easily favours orbis.

Yet to many people are putting their faith in "special sauce's" based on a few posters who sound like an awful lot like viral marketers. GPU deficient, special sauce. Bandwidth deficient, special sauce.

Every time these leaks get ripped to shreds by the tech bods, these posters fall back on custom hardware which we know little about. Problem is custom hardware can be found in any closed system console ever released.

However, these are different because they are MAGIC!!!

This situation reminds me when I once had a conversation with a priest. Every time I would ask a perfectly logical question to which he had no answer he would immediately respond with "the lord works in mysterious ways" phrase.

The same thing happens with Durango; as soon as someone questions certain design decisions with logical questions, we are immediately met with "The Sauce works in mysterious ways" response from local apostles.

It's almost a religious situation with this mythical "Secret Sauce" business. Perhaps we should rename it to "Holy Sauce" or "Savior Sauce".
 
This situation reminds me when I once had a conversation with a priest. Every time I would ask a perfectly logical question to which he had no answer he would immediately respond with "the lord works in mysterious ways" phrase.

The same thing happens with Durango; as soon as someone questions certain design decisions with logical questions, we are immediately met with "The Sauce works in mysterious ways" response from local apostles.

It's almost a religious situation with this mythical "Secret Sauce" business. Perhaps we should rename it to "Holy Sauce" or "Savior Sauce".

Why do u care so much about it? Ignore it.
 
This situation reminds me when I once had a conversation with a priest. Every time I would ask a perfectly logical question to which he had no answer he would immediately respond with "the lord works in mysterious ways" phrase.

The same thing happens with Durango; as soon as someone questions certain design decisions with logical questions, we are immediately met with "The Sauce works in mysterious ways" response from local apostles.

It's almost a religious situation with this mythical "Secret Sauce" business. Perhaps we should rename it to "Holy Sauce" or "Savior Sauce".
You bringing your religion bashing analogy into this thread is worse than the console fanboys.
 
Sorry you may feel that way but you cant deny that MS have been extremely focused on kinect and services the last few years. The last few E3 performances prove that alone.

Yes, because it makes perfect sense. First they established Xbox 360 as a great platform for "core" gamers, then focused their attention on broadening the appeal. That benefits everyone in the end, including the "core", since a platform that keeps selling well and keeps showing great software sales (especially for third parties) will continue getting tons of great content, some exclusive. It's a process that breeds confidence within their third party partners, although the benefits might not be immediately apparent (developers generally giving Xbox 360 versions of their games more attention may be one of the immediately noticeable perks). However, in the long term, it could mean a difference between having strong third party support and having practically none at all.

Nintendo's current situation stands as a testament to that; third parties nowadays avoid their consoles because they think (not without evidence) that the only thing that sells well on Nintendo consoles (in general; of course there are some exceptions) is Nintendo software. Sony is much closer to Nintendo's philosophy than Microsoft is, they're at a risk of flooding the PlayStation ecosystem with their own games, driving the third parties away. It hasn't happened yet, obviously, but with Microsoft generally moving out of the way for third parties, they stand a better chance of avoiding that in the future.

As for their first party strategy, they've been open about it from the outset. This is from an interview with Robbie Bach from July of 2005, some 17 minutes in:

Robbie Bach said:
Our approach to first party content, just in general, as an overall philosophy, has evolved over the last two or three years. We've gone from being a well called "bulk" producer of first party games to being somebody who focuses on titles that drive the platform. That means we're going to do fewer titles, it means at times we're going to want those titles to be carefully timed with new things we're doing on the platform.

...

Our first party studios will do fewer games, that's a true statement. They will be bigger titles, more focused, more AAA-generating titles than we've done in the past. Our third party publishing community is doing such a great job of covering the sort of the spectrum of platforms and the spectrum of genres for things that we don't need first party to be able to cover every single genre.

Barring some drastic turns in the overall strategy, you will probably see the same thing with Durango. There's going to be a hell of a lot of high quality first party content in its first few years, for every segment of the market they're currently wooing, including the "core". As time goes on, you will see them increasingly focus on several strongest franchises and some completely new experiences, tied with their efforts to further broaden the appeal of the Xbox brand. If that doesn't suit you, you better bail out straight away.

I'm fine with it. For all the numerous titles Sony has published over the course of this generation, very few possess that certain something that would make me choose them over some third party game (or indeed, their competitor's game). Microsoft has struck a much deeper cord with me, in relative terms, even though they didn't publish nearly as many retail titles.


Devs are pleased? Since when? People truly working on next gen software have been extremely silent and we've heard nothing from them. Everyone is afraid of breaking NDA.

Not quite. Granted, that's rather old, but unless Microsoft has made a u-turn, it seems they'll be pleased with the system.
 
You sure about that? I'll use 4X MSAA in this example:

Backbuffer = resolution * (color depth + z-buffer + AA)

Backbuffer = 1920*1080 * (32 + 32 + 96)

Backbuffer = 2073600 * 160 = ~39.55 MB/frame

So 4X MSAA is out of the question. 2X is perfectly doable (takes only ~27 MB per frame). Of course if my calculation is off, feel free to correct me (anyone).

But my question remains, why would you use eSRAM as L3 cache? What's the benefit from that (seriously, I'd like to know, maybe I'm missing something)?



My mistake, I forgot that we are still expecting info on magical sauce/jizz that will save the day. I bow down in shame. Forgive me, I was out of line.

Anyway if there are no ROPs in the ESRAM it will be better to put your backbuffer in the DDR3 memory and take advantage of the low latency of ESRAM for GPGPU ops.
 
The example given is a perfectly valid analogy. He could replace the religious stuff with 9/11 truther if you like.

I'd question its 'perfection' if you had to find a way soften the blow so to speak. :P

Console. Serious business. :|

Anyway, what's MEC?

edit: Never mind, it's Kinect multichannel echo cancellation (MEC) hardware. For those who were wondering.
 
Thats part of the problem though. The leaks we have seen have been the base specs which pound for pound easily favours orbis.

Yet to many people are putting their faith in "special sauce's" based on a few posters who sound like an awful lot like viral marketers. GPU deficient, special sauce. Bandwidth deficient, special sauce.

Every time these leaks get ripped to shreds by the tech bods, these posters fall back on custom hardware which we know little about. Problem is custom hardware can be found in any closed system console ever released.

However, these are different because they are MAGIC!!!

I think the "special sauce" thinking comes from this........For 2 generations MS has had the console that was the easiest to develop for and allowed developers to really get the most out of the system. For 2 generations Sony has had the most difficult console to program for and in the case of the PS3 this caused them to have slightly inferior ports in most cases.

Given the track record of MS, its hard for many to believe they would release a console that wouldnt once again give developers the easiest time of pushing the tech. On paper the Orbis looks to outclass the Durango but im not willing to just say the Durango is disappointing because i dont know what developers will be able to do with the tools and hardware provided from both companies. If the Orbis is difficult to program for and the ports are inferior none of the hardware advantages will matter.
 
You sure about that? I'll use 4X MSAA in this example:

Backbuffer = resolution * (color depth + z-buffer + AA)

Backbuffer = 1920*1080 * (32 + 32 + 96)

Backbuffer = 2073600 * 160 = ~39.55 MB/frame

So 4X MSAA is out of the question. 2X is perfectly doable (takes only ~27 MB per frame). Of course if my calculation is off, feel free to correct me (anyone).

But my question remains, why would you use eSRAM as L3 cache? What's the benefit from that (seriously, I'd like to know, maybe I'm missing something)?



My mistake, I forgot that we are still expecting info on magical sauce/jizz that will save the day. I bow down in shame. Forgive me, I was out of line.

If they still can tile 1080p @ MSAA4x seems actually quite doable with that setup.

On 360 2 tiles did not inflict that much of a hit, and on 32 mb of ram you would plenty room for other buffers along the backbuffer... And that is not even considering that now the could have reduced, or even completely eliminated the hit tiling took on 360.

Anyway if there are no ROPs in the ESRAM it will be better to put your backbuffer in the DDR3 memory and take advantage of the low latency of ESRAM for GPGPU ops.

If it is flexible enough to allow both scenarios it would be interesting. Bandwidth heavy situations could benefit from putting the back buffer on the esram, and shader heavy scenarios could use the allegedly low latency of esram to improve ALU efficiency.
 
Rather you view it as "valid" or not doesn't really excuse its distastefulness. Hence why vazel's comparison to a console fanboy is "valid".

One would expect a thicker skin from your average gaffer but I guess all ailments of modern society such as being oversensitive and easily offended are present in forums as they are in everyday life.

Please forgive my distasteful and careless analogy. I will be more considerate of your feelings in the future.

Anyway if there are no ROPs in the ESRAM it will be better to put your backbuffer in the DDR3 memory and take advantage of the low latency of ESRAM for GPGPU ops.

Sure, that could work.

If they still can tile 1080p @ MSAA4x seems actually quite doable with that setup.

Yep I agree, I was making that calculation to show that without tilling it's impossible to have 1080p + 4X MSAA.
 
Durango will have blu-ray playback. They know that people want it, and that they expect it.

8 core CPU, 1 core for OS, 1 core disabled in all likelihood for yield concerns, is what I've heard.

The "it's designed primarily as a DVR" crowd are going to look really dumb. Or rather, they would, if the internet had any sort of memory for stupid things people say and stupid assumptions they make before consoles launch. Which it really doesn't.

The 3GB of RAM for OS is crap. That's what I'm told by people who have proven to be reliable. So is the two cores dedicated to OS.

That is consistent with their language in materials aimed at developers, but I really don't know. I do know that HSA is mentioned repeatedly.

Let me see if this helps. For Durango:

Rendering into ESRAM: Yes.
Rendering into DRAM: Yes.
Texturing from ESRAM: Yes.
Texturing from DRAM: Yes.
Resolving into ESRAM: Yes.
Resolving into DRAM: Yes.

For the 360, that would be yes, no, no, yes, no, yes.
Some of aegies post that got buried.
 
If they still can tile 1080p @ MSAA4x seems actually quite doable with that setup.

On 360 2 tiles did not inflict that much of a hit, and on 32 mb of ram you would plenty room for other buffers along the backbuffer... And that is not even considering that now the could have reduced, or even completely eliminated the hit tiling took on 360.

If it is flexible enough to allow both scenarios it would be interesting. Bandwidth heavy situations could benefit from putting the back buffer on the esram, and shader heavy scenarios could use the allegedly low latency of esram to improve ALU efficiency.

Didn't proelite said durango GPU had the better triangle/verts processing power maybe to offset the geometry overhead for tiling?
 
One would expect a thicker skin from your average gaffer but I guess all ailments of modern society such as being oversensitive and easily offended are present in forums as they are in everyday life.

Please forgive my distasteful and careless analogy. I will be more considerate of your feelings in the future.



Sure, that could work.

Im agnostic. I commented because I like to check this thread periodically and I know that any thread about religion goes to absolutely unreadable shit in a matter of pages.

You also seem like a douche who had a purpose or mini-agenda to push, hence you editing in shit like "maybe we should call it Savior sauce or holy sauce" to further mock whoever. I really don't care to read it if you do understand.
 
Didn't proelite said durango GPU had the better triangle/verts processing power maybe to offset the geometry overhead for tiling?

Perhaps, but i'm hoping that's more to do with a brand new tessellation and vertex setup engines. Something that can adaptively adjust the geometry even on the same object based on closeness to the camera, and not just for flatness of the surface like it usually is. (I've seen dx11 implementations of that with CUDA, but hardware support would be nice).

I remember some devs saying that on 360, you could eliminate the costs of tiling using memexport, but it would would require completely rebuilding the rendering pipeline, and that it wouldn't benefit no other platform other than 360, so that's probably why no one, (no even 1st party devs) went that route... Maybe those DMEs can somehow make that automatically [/wishfulthinking]

Some of aegies post that got buried.

Resolving into esram is interesting if it means that the backbuffer can go directly to the display out from both memories. Seems like switching the location of the back buffer on the fly is definitely in.
 
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