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[Tripp Daily]

Starting to all make sense...

Does this mean that the move engines will able to read from the memory as well? And will the eSRAM work in conjunction with the DMEs?

I guess my uninformed question is "can two systems (gpu and dme) pull from the same pool of unified memory?

 

[Karak]

Starting to all make sense...

Hmm. How I missed the bold I will never know. That is interesting.

Did we all already discus this one? I think we did back when we were talking about the VR in one of the earlier threads. Interesting patents out there to find.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120147038

[0001] A see-through display merges a display image and an external image, presenting both images in the same physical space. Such a display may be used in a wearable, head-mounted display system; it may be coupled in goggles, a helmet, or other eyewear. The see-through display enables the viewer to view images from a computer, video game, media player, or other electronic device, with privacy and mobility. When configured to present two different display images, one for each eye, this approach may be used for stereoscopic (e.g., virtual-reality) display.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120147038#ixzz2Jca5J31Y

 

[clashfan]

I just watched windows weekly on twit and Paul Thurrott said there will be multiple xbox hardware announcements this year. He sounded like he had firm info but couldn't say more.

 

[USC-fan]

Hmm. How I missed the bold I will never know. That is interesting.

Did we all already discus this one? I think we did back when we were talking about the VR in one of the earlier threads. Interesting patents out there to find.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120147038

Dont think so and there are a lot more if anyone have some free time to look at...

http://www.faqs.org/patents/inventor/tardif-us-5/

I looked through a couple and that is how i found the display planes and posted it over at beyond3d and now it over here too.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

I just watched windows weekly on twit and Paul Thurrott said there will be multiple xbox hardware announcements this year. He sounded like he had firm info but couldn't say more.

Xbox 361 and Xbox 720. Believe.

 

[DopeyFish]

most important part of that patent: QoS guarantees.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I just watched windows weekly on twit and Paul Thurrott said there will be multiple xbox hardware announcements this year. He sounded like he had firm info but couldn't say more.

he said the same thing on What the Tech on Monday.

said one of the 'leaked' documents out there is outdated and no longer what microsoft is going for.

I think he was talking about the pdf that was made in 2010 with the yukon architecture.

he wanted to go more in-depth but bit his tongue.

 

[LukasTaves]

Finished reading. Very interesting... It actually does a lot more than just differently scaling portions of the game, and should be quite useful.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I assume Thurrott means that there will be an Xbox console and increasingly, Xbox will be MS's entertainment brand. A Surface that's aimed at games + media would be an Xbox Surface, for example.

That's great about the dynamic scaling / 1080p for different threads. Potentially wonderful things can come out of that. There's the obvious gains for clarity of the game image, but you could pull off some unusual things if abused right.

 

[Karak]

he said the same thing on What the Tech on Monday.

said one of the 'leaked' documents out there is outdated and no longer what microsoft is going for.

I think he was talking about the pdf that was made in 2010 with the yukon architecture.

he wanted to go more in-depth but bit his tongue.

Slick from his post above is right that is the only split diagram that was out and considered a true leak at the time. The yukon.

Diagrams were correct but things have changed is what he indicates in both podcasts.
He backed up what I already was promised about a sooner than E3 announcement and he was very firm on that but he does basically sort of sliped up and seems to indicate 2 hardware platforms and quickly says "there will be more than 1 xbox..uhm hardware something...happening this year". Also could just be a mind fart as he races to not leak something.

1 hour 5 minutes in
http://twit.tv/show/windows-weekly/297

Wolves I think you are right. Surface BESIDE a new system could really be something unique for them.

 

[Proelite]

Oh shit. Durango has two CPUs and two GPUs.

 

[Fafalada]

Other stuff in dynamic resolution.

I don't get the emphasis on resolution here - the main takeaway from that patent is that mixing on scanout allows you to have arbitrary refresh rate of each "plane" (which IMO doesn't deserve a new patent either - PS2 had that functionality hardwired back in 1999, though admittedly with limited "postprocessing").
Resolution mixing has no real advantage over doing it with the GPU(assuming no stupid limitations of the memory layout) - ie. what games have been doing for the past 15 years - although if the intention is to wall-off OS overlays completely, scan-out mixing makes sense.

There's definitely room to discuss usability of different refresh-rates for in-game processing, akin to paralax-scrolling layers at different framerate back in the 2d days (the leaks for this gen are getting increasingly more oldschool by the day), but this is more game design then tech, so I'll stay out of those arguments.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Oh shit. Durango has two CPUs and two GPUs.

this one only has one cpu and one gpu and is dated 1/31/2013.

Maybe we are looking at two different machines as Paul Thurrott keeps saying

 

[El_Chino]

Oh shit. Durango has two CPUs and two GPUs.

Matches that old rumor from way back doesn't it?

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Oh shit. Durango has two CPUs and two GPUs.

this one only has one cpu and one gpu and is dated 1/31/2013.

Maybe we are looking at two different machines as Paul Thurrott keeps saying

 

[Valnen]

Matches that old rumor from way back doesn't it?

Yeah, I seem to recall some old rumor that said one cpu and one gpu would be dedicated to multimedia while the other would be for gaming.

Maybe we are looking at two different machines as Paul Thurrott keeps saying

Perhaps one multimedia box with a CPU and GPU dedicated to multimedia, one pure gaming machine? With the pure gaming machine being the cheaper SKU.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

not sure what happeend there with the double post lol

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Yeah, I seem to recall some old rumor that said one cpu and one gpu would be dedicated to multimedia while the other would be for gaming.



Perhaps one multimedia box with a CPU and GPU dedicated to multimedia, one pure gaming machine? With the pure gaming machine being the cheaper SKU.

or the old one is an old design.

 

[TheOddOne]

Xbox 361 and Xbox 720. Believe.

Maybe the dude is right. I felt strange typing that.

 

[pottuvoi]

How does NAO32 compare to FP10 in terms of the representable dynamic range? Which one is the best for doing HDR with 32 bits per pixel? I know NAO32 has a decoding/encoding overhead.

If I remember correctly..
FP10 ~13 stops
NAO32 ~30 stops
NAO32 is pretty much dropped for a RGBM which has some nice advantages and offers respectable dynamic range as well.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

jsut noticed both of those design pics are almost exactly the same design minus the dual cpu/gpu in the old design, and the microphone/camera thing in the new one.

 

[Colonel Nasty]

I could see them having a 360 with the new multimedia features and Durango with multimedia no matter what.

 

[onQ123]

Oh shit. Durango has two CPUs and two GPUs.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481827



Do you have memory lost? that's not new & you was even in the thread I made about that patent

Doesn't make sense for them to have two sets of CPU/GPUs. It would be much cheaper to have the more powerful CPU/GPU partially reserved to do the multimedia stuff.

The only way this would make sense is if they're also releasing standalone machines, aka tablets, with only the weaker CPU/GPU set.

See

 

[TheOddOne]

C'mon Proelite. That... c'mon.

 

[Slayer-33]

I could them having a 360 with the new multimedia features and Durango with multimedia no matter what.

Wut.

Accidently the entire thing?

 

[eso76]

So, if i'm getting this right, what they are doing is helping games run at sub 1080p res ?

 

[nib95]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481827



Do you have memory lost? that's not new & you was even in the thread I made about that patent





See

Lol...

 

[CadetMahoney]

Where are the AAA retail games from MS? Are you saying that a bunch of XBLA games completely makes up for the lack of even trying to establish any new front line IPs in over three years?

XBLA games are great, but it's the same as MS turning out tons of FPS and racing games and nothing else.

Looks at software sales between Sony and MS. I see some 2:1 leads in core games in Ms favour.

Looks at whether or not ppl go into Gamestop and actually care who the publisher is when picking a title. Nope, no evidence for that.

Sorry you're premise about 1st party retail titles being the reason for success is incorrect.

Secondly you lament MS core output like it's something that was big before. . . truth is, their core output hasn't changed for a long time so if your premise is correct what is the explanation for the success MS is having this gen?

 

[XtremeXpider]

or the old one is an old design.

Or the new one is the set-top box (cheaper) model.

 

[derFeef]

MS: Your move now.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Or the new one is the set-top box (cheaper) model.

yep yep, lots of possibilities.

 

[eso76]

yep yep, lots of possibilities.

So MS is pulling a MGS2 Tanker incident kind of thing.
They let the weaker machine specs leak to fool Sony.
Sony responds with a marginally better system.
MS surprise launch with a beast the power of 6triceraflops no one saw coming.

Eh, i'd love that.
But nope.

 

[Mandoric]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain the novelty of the layered support? I love the idea, I've taken great advantage of it in some PC games over the years, but... Again, I've taken great advantage of it in some PC games over the years. ;P

 

[scently]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481827



Do you have memory lost? that's not new & you was even in the thread I made about that patent





See

You guys take everything Proelite says way too seriously. He has insider info and he posts them other times, like the 2 cpu, gpu comment, he is just trolling or having harmless fun. Its like everything Spongebob says seriously. Dude trolls both nextgen console threads. lol

 

[jbug617]

yep yep, lots of possibilities.

The Verge ran a rumor that Microsoft is going to make a set top style box that will be used for streaming entertainment and casual games. They said it's not the next Xbox but will use the Xbox brand name.

 

[CadetMahoney]

They let the weaker machine specs leak to fool Sony.
Sony responds with a marginally better system.
MS surprise launch with a beast the power of 6triceraflops no one saw coming.

Eh, i'd love that.
But nope.

It would certainly narrow down purchasing decisions. . . depends on how much of a loss MS is willing to make if they want be price competitive too. Alas I think it will be both parity consoles with the same thing, Gears this Uncharted that and everything else in-between the same. *yawn*

 

[Krilekk]

Yeah, I seem to recall some old rumor that said one cpu and one gpu would be dedicated to multimedia while the other would be for gaming.



Perhaps one multimedia box with a CPU and GPU dedicated to multimedia, one pure gaming machine? With the pure gaming machine being the cheaper SKU.

The other way around is more likely cause they are scared by Apple TV. You don't reach that $99 with a next gen pure gaming machine, media center will be the cheaper SKU.

 

[Lynn616]

this one only has one cpu and one gpu and is dated 1/31/2013.

Maybe we are looking at two different machines as Paul Thurrott keeps saying

I asked about this possibility earlier in the thread.

Durango needs to have 2 GPUs right? The main Durango sku having both GPUs and the low cost download only sku having just one.

Using the low power GPU in pass-through mode, Skype, Apps and Arcade games. Both GPUs working together for the full 720 games.

 

[TheOddOne]

If those two sku's were real, we would have gotten more leaks though.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

If those two sku's were real, we would have gotten more leaks though.

But they would not have to send out devkits of the weaker SKU to developers -> no leaks.

And I don't think an additional low power GPU would be used in games. Sounds like a nightmare for programmers to be honest.

 

[gofreak]

I don't get the emphasis on resolution here - the main takeaway from that patent is that mixing on scanout allows you to have arbitrary refresh rate of each "plane" (which IMO doesn't deserve a new patent either - PS2 had that functionality hardwired back in 1999, though admittedly with limited "postprocessing").
Resolution mixing has no real advantage over doing it with the GPU(assuming no stupid limitations of the memory layout) - ie. what games have been doing for the past 15 years - although if the intention is to wall-off OS overlays completely, scan-out mixing makes sense.

Do we know how much post-processing stuff will be in this chip? The patent talks about some fairly boiler plate stuff - colorspace conversion, gamma correction, scaling. Maybe they've thrown in some screenspace AA?

I think the idea of something that you can throw buffers at, and it knows how to composite them for whatever device the machine is serving, might make particular sense if MS wants this system to perhaps be a server for multiple clients (a tablet, a phone, a TV, or whatever). Of course, the requisite output processing is something an OS could provide with or without dedicated hardware.

Proelite - do you actually know about this hardware? You sounded like you knew about it but then it seemed like the patent was your own first exposure to an explanation of what it might be. If you do know more about it, is there more to it than the 'boilerplate' above?

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yeah, I think you might be right with that. This is probably designed to allow easy streaming to client devices (smartglass, your old 360 in the bedroom) of gameplay, video, etc. I don't see how it's that useful for games.

 

[eso76]

But they would not have to send out devkits of the weaker SKU to developers -> no leaks.

And I don't think an additional low power GPU would be used in games. Sounds like a nightmare for programmers to be honest.

the weaker gpu only does overlays, read: HUD

well, wouldn't it sort of make sense since there are two scalers (i can't see these being hugely useful when it's the same gpu having to work on both planes anyway) and the console is supposed to display notifications and whatnot on cable tv or whatever goes through hdmi in ?

i expect that to happen with the console in 'partial sleep' mode, so maybe it makes sense to have a MUCH weaker gpu dedicated to that, and by much weaker i mean something like the Raspberry pi's requiring like 5V.
If that was the case, i can't see it being helpful with games at all.

But, could it help with media center functions ? maybe Durango has a 'low power' mode allowing you to see movies or listen to music with minimal power consumption (while being SILENT) ? i wasn't interested in the console's media player capabilities (having to switch a noisy 300W console on to listen to music is not ideal) but if that was the case then we can talk.

I don't know if it makes sense, but it's either that or the scaler is there to send video output to other devices: phones, tablets, or the illumiroom itself: the stuff we see 'around' and 'outside' the screen might need it.

 

[scently]

Yeah, I think you might be right with that. This is probably designed to allow easy streaming to client devices (smartglass, your old 360 in the bedroom) of gameplay, video, etc. I don't see how it's that useful for games.

It will be useful for rendering too. Read the patent.

 

[Pug]

It will be useful for rendering too. Read the patent.

Very useful for rendering.

 

[gofreak]

Very useful for rendering.

I skimmed the patent, and figured it might spare the GPU some screenspace shaders like gamma correction, but care to elaborate?

 

[Brad Grenz]

It doesn't seem to do anything that current gen systems haven't already been doing with dynamic resolutions and fullrez HUDs, save allow for a game to use any arbitrary colorspace irrespective of the colorspace used by the system overlay for notifications, and potentially (as speculated above) allow for the system to also generate a completely different screen for a connected client device (a 360 or PC streaming video/gameplay or Fortaleza AR glasses, for example). It doesn't contribute to he performance of the machine, it attempts to smooth over any issues when the system performance is already struggling. 360 already had hardware that messed with the gamma curve and scaled the output.

This doesn't appear to offer any benefits to actual rendering. It's purely a function of how you output your final image.

 

[poodpick]

Microsoft abandoning XNA and directx?

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/144-graphics-and-games/5404-microsoft-phases-out-xna-and-directx.html

 

[eso76]

so it can send two different images to two tablets for example ?
yay.
it could be a nice feature, but i don't see anything exciting about it.

 

[ekim]

Microsoft abandoning XNA and directx?

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/144-graphics-and-games/5404-microsoft-phases-out-xna-and-directx.html

Nope. Durango API is Direct3D 11.1