VGLeaks: Durango's Move Engines

Sounding very good for Orbis. Sony's development tools have also apparently improved by large strides as well.

Does the latter bolded really follow the former. Is the UMA of Orbis considered dumb design and ineffective? Has there been anything to suggest that these would actually bridge any potential performance deficit rather than simply alleviate potential deficiencies due to the choice of DDR3 as suggested by posts on here?

Microsoft made a conscious decision to go with a large pool of slower RAM, precisely due to OS functions that you're discounting as being insignificant (they aren't to Microsoft).

All of these extra hardware functions are there to mitigate the issues with having slower RAM.

Exactly. These technologies that are unique to Durango don't confer advantages, they literally exist to mitigate disadvantages of the memory architecture chosen. It doesn't make the design super efficient, it makes sure the design isn't cripplingly inefficient. The DMEs offload the processing overhead of copying data from the CPU and GPU, but these copies don't have to happen at all on Orbis. The embedded memory creates a small part of memory with higher bandwidth so the GPU isn't starved by the slow DDR3 memory bus, but Orbis has a single high bandwidth memory bus.
 
I wasn't suggesting that the consoles would be at parity or that -God forbid!- Durango could fare better, especially going by VGleaks material. Rather, I was hinting at the real possibity of having a smaller gap than that wich a simple comparison of numbers would project...
 
So what they do? To compress/decompress textures? Is it a big deal to compensate the hardware flaws against PS4?
 
woa..

sorry guys but I can't help but feel the same way I did 8 years back when 360 and PS3 specs were discussed. I still remember the XBOX 1.5 and how much powerful PS3 were arguments over and over.

though the Durango specs seem kinda underwhelming I still 'trust' MS with its hardware performance decisions, OG XBOX and 360 have proved them right, imo.

anyway, exciting times ahead :)
 
So what they do? To compress/decompress textures? Is it a big deal to compensate the hardware flaws against PS4?

perople are misreading "textures" and "tiles"

tiles refer to blocks of memory, "texture" is refering to data which is being passed into the gpu for compute. Corrine yu talks about it in the following video.

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...Engine-Architect-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-One

http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Tech...ne-Architect-for-Halo-Team-Microsoft-Part-Two
 
ok thanks

it's a hardware solution of the memexport function on the xenos

In simple terms the MEMEXPORT function is a method by which Xenos can push and pull vectorised data directly to and from system RAM. This becomes very useful with vertex shader programs as with the capabilities to scatter and gather to and from system RAM the graphics processor suddenly becomes a very wide processor for general purpose floating point operations. For instance, if a shader operation could be run with the results passed out to memory and then another shader can be performed on the output of the first shader with the first shader's results becoming the input to the subsequent shader.

MEMEXPORT expands the graphics pipeline further forward and in a general purpose and programmable way. For instance, one example of its operation could be to tessellate an object as well as to skin it by applying a shader to a vertex buffer, writing the results to memory as another vertex buffer, then using that buffer run a tessellation render, then run another vertex shader on that for skinning. MEMEXPORT could potentially be used to provide input to the tessellation unit itself by running a shader that calculates the tessellation factor by transforming the edges to screen space and then calculates the tessellation factor on each of the edges dependant on its screen space and feeds those results into the tessellation unit, resulting in a dynamic, screen space based tessellation routine. Other examples for its use could be to provide image based operations such as compositing, animating particles, or even operations that can alternate between the CPU and graphics processor.

With the capability to fetch from anywhere in memory, perform arbitrary ALU operations and write the results back to memory, in conjunction with the raw floating point performance of the large shader ALU array, the MEMEXPORT facility does have the capability to achieve a wide range of fairly complex and general purpose operations; basically any operation that can be mapped to a wide SIMD array can be fairly efficiently achieved and in comparison to previous graphics pipelines it is achieved in fewer cycles and with lower latencies. For instance, this is probably the first time that general purpose physics calculation would be achievable, with a reasonable degree of success, on a graphics processor and is a big step towards the graphics processor becoming much more like a vector co-processor to the CPU.

Seeing as MEMEXPORT operates over the unified shader array the capability is also available to pixel shader programs, however the data would be represented without colour or Z information which is likely to limit its usefulness.
 
I wasn't suggesting that the consoles would be at parity or that -God forbid!- Durango could fare better, especially going by VGleaks material. Rather, I was hinting at the real possibity of having a smaller gap than that wich a simple comparison of numbers would project...

No. These hardware features are there to ensure the disparity is about the same as the disparity on paper, and not much greater, which it would be without them. There was a lot of speculation in the special sauce phase of the discussion that Durango might have "higher quality" flops than Orbis. In fact, the DMEs and embedded memory exist in order for a Durango flops to be equal to an Orbis flop, or at least close to it. The fight isn't to close the gap, but prevent it from being even wider in real world applications.
 
not that i know of. IIRC the 4 compute ALU's will be assisting for those tasks specifically, while the next xbox can use any alu of the gpu, leading to higher effeciency.

Any modern unified architecture can be split down to a certain grain (CU?, i dunno) between the two, there is _NOTHING_ saying the PS4 cant use all its CU for GPGPU, all that there is something saying is that there are 4 CU's in the PS4 that are better at doing GPGPU stuff then the rest of the CU's, they do not mention the capabilities of the other CU's in such a way at all.
 
woa..

sorry guys but I can't help but feel the same way I did 8 years back when 360 and PS3 specs were discussed. I still remember the XBOX 1.5 and how much powerful PS3 were arguments over and over.

though the Durango specs seem kinda underwhelming I still 'trust' MS with its hardware performance decisions, OG XBOX and 360 have proved them right, imo.

anyway, exciting times ahead :)

Yeah everything is still 'rumored' at this point. There's no need to get our knickers twisted.

After all, the Wii had the worst specs but still managed to be the no. 1 selling console this gen.
 
Lionhead - Mega Mesh demonstration



Looks ok, not sure about the technology behind it or how it fits in Xbox 720's configuration though.

I think you can use the move engines to stream in data to the 32mb Esram more easily from main ddr3 memory. Kinda like how devs now stream from hdd or disk to memory. This virtualized tech(mesh and textures) means you first look up what needs to be inside the 32mb Esram for the frame and prepare with the Move Engines. I think carmack will be kinda glad with this architecture he was already working on virtualising geometry

This as a semi tech nerds actually makes me kinda excited about the 720. I would reckon that is also were the approved library comments comes from its probably better that microsoft provides some documentation and libraries to get devs started. Wouldn't trust sources saying they aren't allowed to code to the metal.

Btw is it even true that developers cant code to the metal.
I mean it is generally known that the press thinks this for the 360.
But it has been debunked by multiple developers on B3D that they are allowed to code to the metal how else could they use the VMX(simd) instruction set on the 360.
 
But it becomes the same as the shader issue on the current 360vsPs3, you can get lower latency, and higher effeciency, offloading tasks between cpu and gpu between downtime and cycles of one or the other.

That is the key, and something you can't easily figure out with raw numbers, which is why we keep going around in circles in these tech threads.

If MS can achieve the large ram they wanted for broader use, and an abstraction layer so that they can support potential multiple platforms (or at least Forward Compatibility), and still have on par results due to increased efficiencies in the design, then that's a great result.
 
Been following the enlightening discussion on B3D and started appreciating the uniqueness of Durango setup : Pretty smart design, powerful and cost effective. The performance gulf some've been imagining will probably not materialize... ;)
Is it safe to say that Lionhead and 343 had substantial input? Because much of their ideas seem to be in it.
 
Been following the enlightening discussion on B3D and started appreciating the uniqueness of Durango setup : Pretty smart design, powerful and cost effective. The performance gulf some've been imagining will probably not materialize... ;)

Theres going to still be a performance difference though, as the poster who answered that exact question at B3D pointed out, this stuff may help increase its efficiency but it is still not enough to bring it up to Orbis levels.

Also noting that to utilise all of this requires extra time and work on the programmers part, where as with Orbis you do not need to spend that extra time to get the same kind of performance / bandwidth.
 
These move engines come into there own when we start stacking SoC's ...

Yes they help when theres 1 SoC (CPU/GPU/Memory/other chips) ... BUT when theres more than one these things will come in very handy 2 or even 3 SoCs ...

All these MS haters thinking that MS are only going to throw in 1 GPU/CPU (SoC) ... be prepared to be disappointed when MS throws in more...

Why do you think the wattage of a single GPU (60watts) is so low BUT the Xbox next has a power box that can potential go up to 300watts (probably peak at 230-250)...

Anyway can't wait till the final number of component parts are revealed!!

Of the revealed GPU / Board diagrams ... nothing has mentioned the number of components!! prepare to be surprised!
 
These move engines come into there own when we start stacking SoC's ...

Yes they help when theres 1 SoC (CPU/GPU/Memory/other chips) ... BUT when theres more than one these things will come in very handy 2 or even 3 SoCs ...

All these MS haters thinking that MS are only going to throw in 1 GPU/CPU (SoC) ... be prepared to be disappointed when MS throws in more...

Why do you think the wattage of a single GPU (60watts) is so low BUT the Xbox next has a potential to go up to 300watts...

Anyway can't wait till the final number of component parts are revealed!!

Adding extra SoC's is pretty stupid.

Its cheaper and you get performance from just making one with better components, its also easier to shrink and will probably give you better yields.

Anyone who thinks that theres going to be a second GPU or anything like that, especially something on the level of 3 SoC's really doesn't know what they are talking about.

Unless of course you like paying $1500 for a console.

There will not be more then one GPU, nor will there be more then one SoC these ridiculous rumors, along with the magic raytracing chip need to DIAF because they are getting out of hand.
 
Adding extra SoC's is pretty stupid.

Its cheaper and you get performance from just making one with better components, its also easier to shrink and will probably give you better yields.

Anyone who thinks that theres going to be a second GPU or anything like that, especially something on the level of 3 SoC's really doesn't know what they are talking about.

Unless of course you like paying $1500 for a console.

There will not be more then one GPU, nor will there be more then one SoC these ridiculous rumors, along with the magic raytracing chip need to DIAF because they are getting out of hand.

You are so wrong... can't wait till the truth is revealed!
 
You are so wrong... can't wait till the truth is revealed!

Nope. You are the one who is wrong, these crazy rumors really do show who has a semblance of hardware design knowledge though.

its good for weeding out who has a clue.

May I ask who is your source?.
 
U sound like mistercteam or misterxmedia.

nope I'm not them, regardless I stand by my statements and predict that the number of components of cpu/gpu is not known yet AND can possibly be multiples of either/or.

All I'm suggesting is that there has been no mention at all about the number of these components and that its possible because they are so power conservative that there may be more than one of each..

Time will tell if my assumptions are correct!
 
Kotaku should run a new Durango article soon. DaE leaked them new stuff.

€: Imagine the meltdowns when MS announces that there is no always-on/no used games DRM and they have 2 of those 1.2 TFlops GPUs in there.*

*
the latter will not happen
 
nope I'm not them, regardless I stand by my statements and predict that the number of components of cpu/gpu is not known yet AND can possibly be multiples of either/or.

All I'm suggesting is that there has been no mention at all about the number of these components and that its possible because they are so power conservative that there may be more than one of each..

Time will tell if my assumptions are correct!

They are not, I can tell you that now, no need to wait for time.

Good reasons as well, you clearly do not understand enough about hardware design to make a accurate statement about unreleased console.
 
nope I'm not them, regardless I stand by my statements and predict that the number of components of cpu/gpu is not known yet AND can possibly be multiples of either/or.

All I'm suggesting is that there has been no mention at all about the number of these components and that its possible because they are so power conservative that there may be more than one of each..

Time will tell if my assumptions are correct!

Just to throw this out there, seems like your prediction/assumption is based on that Yukon pdf from 2010. According to Paul Thurrot, Microsoft dropped that design last year.

But of course you are free to your own speculation.
 
Kotaku should run a new Durango article soon. DaE leaked them new stuff.

€: Imagine the meltdowns when MS announces that there is no always-on/no used games DRM and they have 2 of those 1.2 TFlops GPUs in there.*

*
the latter will not happen

Since Paul Thurrots statements that there are multiple xbox devices coming down the pipeline, I have the same hope lol.

If what we have seen is an actual console, should we be asking where does this fall in line if what thurrot said is true?

Is this a low end device sub-$300 that plays games okay or maybe only DD xbla/kinect games but is a fully featured media device that will act as your dvr and all that stuff?

Then there is an ethusiast sku that is $450+ that is aimed at gamers that are willing to spend that much money that has beefed up specs to allow games to run at something similar to very high or ultra settings on pc at 1920x1080p and 30 or 60 fps?

I mean, microsoft did file patents for a scalable console. Maybe what we are seeing are is only the base and consumers who want lite gaming and are more interested in the media features have this option and then there is the base + another gpu or something to beef the thing up for enthusiasts that are willing to pay a premium price for great hardware.

all speculation on my part, don't take it serious, total pipedream lol.
 
Just to throw this out there, seems like your prediction/assumption is based on that Yukon pdf from 2010. According to Paul Thurrot, Microsoft dropped that design last year.

But of course you are free to your own speculation.

Nah, he's talking about this hilarious fake BS.

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1769561/nextgen_huge_xbox_720_ps4_specs_report_by_insider.html

Xbox 720 Tech Specs

Three SOCs in one console. Two "Venus" models, and one "Mars".
8GB RAM, with 1GB devoted to operating system.
Mars SOC - System SOC

GPU AMD 8850 spec GPU clocked at 600mhz
4 core CPU is clocked @ 1.8GHz. It is an x86 system.
Audio DSP
2 of Venus SOC - Application SOC

GPU AMD 8900 spec GPU clocked at 800mhz with 10000HD series future tech
4 core CPU is clocked @ 2.5GHz
1.5 Gb of GDDR5 ram on each SOC (total 3GB) clocked @ 1.2Ghz
Common factors

4GB of DDR4 RAM with 384 bit bus
Ray tracing chip
High speed blitter with 510 GB/s bandwidth between SOCs
EDRAM
Power brick is 300 watts, but SDKs are looking at 230 watts used.
Capable of 4.2TFlops of data.
 
Since Paul Thurrots statements that there are multiple xbox devices coming down the pipeline, I have the same hope lol.

If what we have seen is an actual console, should we be asking where does this fall in line if what thurrot said is true?

Is this a low end device sub-$300 that plays games okay or maybe only DD xbla/kinect games but is a fully featured media device that will act as your dvr and all that stuff?

Then there is an ethusiast sku that is $450+ that is aimed at gamers that are willing to spend that much money that has beefed up specs to allow games to run at something similar to very high or ultra settings on pc at 1920x1080p and 30 or 60 fps?

I mean, microsoft did file patents for a scalable console. Maybe what we are seeing are is only the base and consumers who want lite gaming and are more interested in the media features have this option and then there is the base + another gpu or something to beef the thing up for enthusiasts that are willing to pay a premium price for great hardware.

all speculation on my part, don't take it serious, total pipedream lol.

What did Thurrot say?

edit: found it. :P need another coffee
 
Not liking what I'm seeing. Seems PS4 will be the way to go as far as consoles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9NWL9RFQnU

Did you just link to your own YouTube video...............

funny-gif-Steve-Carell-laughing.gif
 
Top Bottom