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Here's a question

Imagine you are sitting on a train. You're in your late 20's. The train is pretty packed. A girl gets on in her late 20's. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't look tired/pregnant/unwell.

Should you automatically give your seat to that woman purely on the basis that she's female?

I'm not asking if it's nice to do so. It's always nice to give to others, male and female regardless.

I give up my seat, it makes me feel so violated. But I don't take the bus, I drive a car with the extra income I earn from working the same job.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But fuck the radical types.

Radical ANYTHING isn't a good place to start from if you're trying to find common ground. What with it being RADICAL and all.

Which is why the radical viewpoints of people who would try to start a twitter hashtag about needing Masculism ended up becoming an internet-wide gag-reel.

 

[Yoshiya]

Imagine you are sitting on a train. You're in your late 20's. The train is pretty packed. A girl gets on in her late 20's. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't look tired/pregnant/unwell.

Should you automatically give your seat to that woman purely on the basis that she's female?

No, I don't see why you would. Am I an obnoxious men's rights advocate now? Do I need to wash my mouth out?

 

[Sir Hamish]

Nope.

Damn right.

I got called a sexist for not saying I would. Apparently it's 'courteous' to do so but I feel it's thinly veiled sexism.

I'd give up my seat readily for a disadvantaged person. Or someone who looked tired. Or someone unwell. Or someone I have I know personally. Not some random person simply because they have a vagina.

I don't want to generalize but it's frustrating how many 'feminists' I know who believe women require special treatment. That's not equality.

 

[lopaz]

That's a pretty funny thing to say in this particular thread considering the OP and some of the things said here.

seconded

BTW for the record lopaz is a guy who tried to defend the EDL so he knows all about hate groups.

dude the EDL was started by some pretty stand-up people in response to legitimate complaints, it just got hijacked by dumbasses. also stop derailing

Civil rights is the umbrella term. Feminism could call under this umbrella.

Of course, Mumei or Opiate could waltz in here and correct me.

Edit: Lopaz, what is "feminism"? What is your definition of feminism?

in my eyes it ranges from the nonsense beliefs surrounding "patriarchy", "rape culture" which paints false picture of history and politics to demonise men, through to radical feminism which has been advocating "cutting up men" for a good long time now

Wow, NeoGAF does have all kinds!

Please, tell me, what are the demographics of the 0.1%? This way we can glean an idea who is in charge and thus has a vested interest in keeping the system the same.

two words: Bob Diamond

 

[Antiwhippy]

Here's a question

Imagine you are sitting on a train. You're in your late 20's. The train is pretty packed. A girl gets on in her late 20's. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't look tired/pregnant/unwell.

Should you automatically give your seat to that woman purely on the basis that she's female?

I'm not asking if it's nice to do so. It's always nice to give to others, male and female regardless.

Does anyone even do that anymore?

Hell, I rarely see anyone give up their seats even for the elderly. Pregnant sometimes too.

 

[Riggs]

haha thanks man! I wanna bring the fight here because this forum has dumbass feminist threads EVERY. SINGLE. DAY!!!

Someone's gotta break up the obscene groupthink going on

Seriously tired of it myself. I don't mind feminism. I want women to be equal. But fuck radical feminists and all this man hating bullshit. So tired of it. Most of these chicks are the same type that want to be totally fucking dominated in bed and called the worst things imaginable. (Which I have zero problem with but it is ironic) Believe me I dated one of them. That said, my mom would kick the fucking shit out of me if she heard me ever call a female a "Bitch", or a "Slut" , or anything like that. I respect women, don't really care if people in here believe that or not, but I do. I called Kim K something of the sort on GAF and have been banned for it before, just disclosing this in case anyone digs. (Doubt anyone cares enough too though). But that is Kim K so what can I say.

Anyway, cya on that flip side Marlo.

 

[Valnen]

I don't see how women have it so bad

Maybe you should get your eyes checked then. There are still many situations in which women are unfairly discriminated against, or are given preferential treatment in cases which they don't need or want it.

 

[Angry Fork]

Arguable. I'd say it's a bit different.

It's different in that feminism deals with women's rights in particular, which isn't a problem at all, but I think the equal rights talk is slippery as feminists are likely to side with women in debates/arguments, as MRA people are likely to side with men. I consider the objective down the middle term to be civil rights.

 

[User 100115]

Good lord..so women have had the sweet life all through out history while the poor men had to go and do everything?

Cause women weren't traded like cattle or treated like slaves or anything.

 

[lopaz]

Are you aware that women are currently favored in family court BECAUSE of patriarchy? The idea that the man is the provider and the woman is the caretaker has an effect on how judgements are rendered.

patriarchy is a nonsense of a theory. The belief in it amongst feminists borders on being some form of religion. It also allows them to dismiss any male complaints as relating to "male privilege" which is COMPLETE doublethink

 

[Kitsunebaby]

Here's a question

Imagine you are sitting on a train. You're in your late 20's. The train is pretty packed. A girl gets on in her late 20's. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't look tired/pregnant/unwell.

Should you automatically give your seat to that woman purely on the basis that she's female?

I'm not asking if it's nice to do so. It's always nice to give to others, male and female regardless.

No? You don't have to give up your seat to anyone unless it's labeled for those with disabilities.

 

[chaostrophy]

Jesus Christ this forum is so full of white knights it hurts

When did the meaning of "white knighting" change from defending a female member of a forum in the hope that she would see the posts and lavish the knight with attention, to agreeing with any woman anywhere including those that have zero chance of ever seeing the posts in question?

 

[lopaz]

Good lord..so women have had the sweet life all through out history while the poor men had to go and do everything?

Cause women weren't traded like cattle or treated like slaves or anything.

ermm so were millions of men? What's your point?

 

[Opiate]

OHHHH the old "all men's problems are caused by the patriarchy" NONSENSE apex fallacy.

If you want to call a system that is dominated by 0.1% of men as an elite class and severely repressed all the others patriarchy, go ahead. Keep pretending that anti-male discrimination in family and criminal courts doesn't exist. Keep pretending shit laws like VAWA aren't criminalising men on trumped up charges while funneling money to radfem organisations who would happily commit genocide against "genetically inferior" males.

Jesus Christ this forum is so full of white knights it hurts

So in the interest of fairness, and because I don't like dismissing people out of hand, I looked up the term "apex fallacy" since I'm fairly interested in critical thinking and had never heard the term.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ape...lacy&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Looking at Google, at least the first seven references to the "apex fallacy" all reference radical feminists in their example of what the fallacy is. Several are articles about radical feminism that simply use the term. I then looked up the term in the dictionary and on wikipedia, and it is not listed.

What that tells me is that this fallacy is not a real logical fallacy, and is almost certainly a term created deliberately by a group of people to arm themselves with jargon. It suggests that people who use this term are likely people deeply invested in whatever cause created the term.

I'm not saying I know with absolute certainty that you come here in bad faith; it's impossible to know that with so little information to go on. But I would say that your language here -- not just the term "apex fallacy," but other phrases like "radfem" -- raises a lot of red flags which suggest bias.

 

[Vermillion]

It's different in that feminism deals with women's rights in particular, which isn't a problem at all, but I think the equal rights talk is slippery as feminists are likely to side with women in debates/arguments, as MRA people are likely to side with men. I consider the objective down the middle term to be civil rights.

Civil rights is more likely to side with minorities. Both are meant to make up the difference between the ruling class and the historically oppressed. Following that, women are farther behind than men are. 'Sides, a feminist should be paying attention to issues on both sides anyways.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Good lord..so women have had the sweet life all through out history while the poor men had to go and do everything?

Cause women weren't traded like cattle or treated like slaves or anything.

Slavery is freedom. Only in Gilead is there true equality.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Reposting for new page

Everybody simmer the hell down.

Lopaz, if you want to make a case about something you need to structure an argument clearly. Do not just make a series of hit and run remarks. As it stands you have about 40 people arguing with you and you have no hope of responding to it all, so perhaps make a general post explaining where you are coming from instead. In the process of this, be respectful.

Everybody else - stop dogpiling, and although filled with righteous indignation, you, too, should remain calm and respectful. It is no secret that these topics are minefields and I can't imagine this thread is not going to end in somebody getting banned. Still, fingers crossed.

 

[Timedog]

MRAs are basically the gender equivalent of the people who go "WHY NO WHITE HISTORY MONTH, HUH?!?!?! IT'S RACISM AGAINST WHITES, Y'SEE!!!"

Then again given how much crossover there is in the Racist/MRA Venn diagramme it isn't very surprising.

Yeeeeep.

 

[Earthstrike]

Here's a question

Imagine you are sitting on a train. You're in your late 20's. The train is pretty packed. A girl gets on in her late 20's. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't look tired/pregnant/unwell.

Should you automatically give your seat to that woman purely on the basis that she's female?

I'm not asking if it's nice to do so. It's always nice to give to others, male and female regardless.

Feminism holds that the man should NOT give their seat to the women on the basis of their gender. It holds that if a person were to give up their chair it should be without respect to their gender.

 

[jon bones]

Men's rights activists are the worst thing on the internet. "Won't someone think of the white men!!!"

MRAs are basically the gender equivalent of the people who go "WHY NO WHITE HISTORY MONTH, HUH?!?!?! IT'S RACISM AGAINST WHITES, Y'SEE!!!"

Then again given how much crossover there is in the Racist/MRA Venn diagramme it isn't very surprising.

nailed it. no respect for those kids... i get that they want so badly to play the victim, but come on. get some perspective.

 

[lopaz]

Just like all men read about how women are frigid bitches who won't give it up on request, amirite? You're unbelievable.

dude to be honest I dont know what you were getting at originally. I already told you I speak to lots of women and interact with them, contrary to your weird allegation that I never do.

There's lots of anti-male bias in the media, far more than for women. That's one example of socially acceptable attitudes that women frequently hold that bug me. But some men are sexist too yes - what's your point?

 

[ivysaur12]

Slavery is freedom. Only in Gilead is there true equality.

Margaret Atwood is a g.

There's lots of anti-male bias in the media, far more than for women.

Stop.

 

[catmincer]

Men's rights activists are the worst thing on the internet. "Won't someone think of the white men!!!"

ERMEHGERD DISCRIMATION.

Seriously you are right, they're pathetic.

Also, I really liked this one

#INeedMasculismBecause pretending women are somehow oppressing me is the only thing giving my worthless life a vague sense of meaning

 

[Valnen]

No true Scotsman.

No. You can't claim this just to justify making sweeping generalizations about groups of people.

 

[User 100115]

ermm so were millions of men? What's your point?

I honestly don't think anything good can come from trying to reason with you at this point. If you honestly cannot see that women have been and in someways still are treated like second class citizens, then I suggest you broaden your education.

 

[Antiwhippy]

dude to be honest I dont know what you were getting at originally. I already told you I speak to lots of women and interact with them, contrary to your weird allegation that I never do.

There's lots of anti-male bias in the media, far more than for women. That's one example of socially acceptable attitudes that women frequently hold that bug me. But some men are sexist too yes - what's your point?

Can you posts some examples, because I'm not really getting what you're trying to say here.

 

[depths20XX]

Opiate is like pro at critical thinking.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Also reposting for new page

http://areyouafeminist.com/

 

[freddy]

In the 70's they'd be fucking each other and smoking pot. Now they're just on prescription drugs and frustrated.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

When did the meaning of "white knighting" change from defending a female member of a forum in the hope that she would see the posts and lavish the knight with attention, to standing up for any woman anywhere including those that have zero chance of ever seeing the posts in question?

"White Knight" has essentially morphed into code for "Pussy." That's all it really is anymore. That's 95% of its usage online. I would imagine most people who use it don't even understand the origin of the term as you describe it. "White Knight" = "Guy Who Sticks Up For Women" = "Pussy"

 

[Earthstrike]

dude the EDL was started by some pretty stand-up people in response to legitimate complaints, it just got hijacked by dumbasses. also stop derailing

But when a political movement which seeks equal rights for women emerges and calls itself feminism, you can't help but claim its about something else due to the hijacking of radfems.

 

[lopaz]

I honestly not think anything good can come from trying to reason with you at this point. If you honestly cannot see that women have been and in someways still are treated like second class citizens, then I suggest you broaden your education.

If you cannot honestly see that men have and frequently still are treated like second class citizens, I suggest you broaden yours

So in the interest of fairness, and because I don't like dismissing people out of hand, I looked up the term "apex fallacy" since I'm fairly interested in critical thinking and had never heard the term.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ape...lacy&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Looking at Google, at least the first seven references to the "apex fallacy" all reference radical feminists in their example of what the fallacy is. Several are articles about radical feminism that simply use the term. I then looked up the term in the dictionary and on wikipedia, and it is not listed.

What that tells me is that this fallacy is almost certainly a term created specifically by a group of people to arm them with jargon as needed in arguments. It suggests that people who use this term are likely people deeply invested in whatever cause created the term.

I'm not saying I know with absolute certainty that you come here in bad faith; it's impossible to know that with so little information to go on. But I would say that your language here -- not just the term "apex fallacy," but other phrases like "radfem" -- raises a lot of red flags about how objective your viewpoint is here.

Did I ever say I was objective? I freuqent MRHA websites and I care about the cause. I'm not the BBC I'm a guy with opinions.

Apex fallacy is an argument formulated in response to the patriarchy theory, which states men are in charge of society, when actually a TINY MINORITY of men are, and women are dominant further down the pecking order

 

[FyreWulff]

patriarchy is a nonsense of a theory. The belief in it amongst feminists borders on being some form of religion. It also allows them to dismiss any male complaints as relating to "male privilege" which is COMPLETE doublethink

So you're saying that the idea that men must act a certain way has nothing to do with male elders controlling a society and punishing any male that dares even cross the line.

The same society where nobody bats an eye at a girl wearing jeans but a boy wearing a dress is 'wrong'.

The same society where a man who calls another man good looking is a 'fag' while a woman touching another woman's breasts is considered cute or sexy.

The same society where men are told by other men to not cry because that makes you a bitch. The society where men who have been raped cannot get help because other men will consider them broken for not enjoying the sex if raped by a female or a 'fag' if raped by a male. There are some societies where a woman who is raped is executed because she 'let' the man rape her from being too womanly.

There is a distinct advantage to being male. It's not an advantage that towers over us and is blatantly obvious. It's a bunch of little things here and there that build up.

Apex fallacy is an argument formulated in response to the patriarchy theory, which states men are in charge of society, when actually a TINY MINORITY of men are, and women are dominant further down the pecking order

I don't think people are thinking about the literal number of men in power when they're talking about patriarchy. They're talking about how men are heavily advantaged from a male-power-centric society. We still don't have equal rights for women in the United States. There are states where the wife is still considered the property of the man in legal matters. In my home state, the husband can go get clipped with no input or consent from his wife; the wife needs him to legally sign off on getting her tubes tied.

 

[params7]

Feminism holds that the man should NOT give their seat to the women on the basis of their gender. It holds that if a person were to give up their chair it should be without respect to their gender.

Yep. The thing with feminism is that they actually fail to make this point clear, and often don't show up vocally in examples like that. I was wondering where the feminists were in that thread about the judge sentencing the south American girl for taunting him (in agreement with the judge). That thread wouldn't have even existed if that were a man being sentenced instead.

 

[jon bones]

dude to be honest I dont know what you were getting at originally. I already told you I speak to lots of women and interact with them, contrary to your weird allegation that I never do.

There's lots of anti-male bias in the media, far more than for women.

haha, holy shit. i know it takes all kinds to make the world go round but come on, bro

also gotta love the "i speak to lots of women!" - it's like the MRA equivalent of "i have a black friend"

read a history book or travel a little bit and hopefully it allows you some perspective

Also reposting for new page

http://areyouafeminist.com/

10/10

 

[ColonelColon]

Also reposting for new page

http://areyouafeminist.com/

This is clearly and utterly bullshit.

 

[Thug Waffle]

Feminism principally is pretty stupid. The message is strong and most certainly worthwhile but it should be based around 'gender equalism' more than 'feminism.' People act like it's just a name, but it's really more than that. The nomenclature is pretty important.

The idea of gender equalism also encourages acceptance of those who may not subscribe to being either male or female, but rather somewhere in between.

 

[lopaz]

But when a political movement which seeks equal rights for women emerges and calls itself feminism, you can't help but claim its about something else due to the hijacking of radfems.

It doesnt seek equal rights though, thats my problem. It ONLY pushes for equality when it benefits women, not in areas like the draft or criminal penalties where women are enormously privileged by the system

"White Knight" has essentially morphed into code for "Pussy." That's all it really is anymore. That's 95% of its usage online. I would imagine most people who use it don't even understand the origin of the term as you describe it. "White Knight" = "Guy Who Sticks Up For Women" = "Pussy"

No, Pussy would be a horrible term used to shame men into adopting their traditional role of tough guy protector and to stop expecting empathy like a 'pussy' woman would be entitled to. To call a man a pussy is to imply his weakness deserves no compassion

 

[Opiate]

I don't see how women have it so bad

As a comparative example, I want to say that I've very rarely seen or heard racism in my life. I don't mean simply directed at me, which is unlikely because I'm a white male, I mean directed at anyone. As far as I can personally tell, racism doesn't seem like a big problem anymore. Basically everyone I know treats blacks the same as they treat whites, as far as I can see.

And yet, there is strong evidence that my personal viewpoint may be skewed by my position in life:

There is strong evidence that people with "black names" have more trouble getting hired.

Black men make substantially less than white men, even when adjusted for education level.

What this tells me is that even though I cannot see or feel or taste or touch racism, it clearly still exists and has serious effects on the lives of black people in the United States. My personal experience is a poor guide, and large scale data sets and studies are far more persuasive than my personal inability to see why black people have it so bad.

I think the same basic principles should be applied to our discussion of women, especially since women are discriminated against in many of the same ways, including a wage gap.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

This is clearly and utterly bullshit.

You're right. It only needs one question - "Do you think men and women should be equal?"

 

[jon bones]

What this tells me is that even though I cannot see or feel or taste or touch racism, it clearly still exists and has serious effects on the lives of black people in the United States. My personal experience is a poor guide, and large scale data sets and studies are far more persuasive than my personal inability to see why black people have it so bad.

this is a man who understands the world around him

 

[Bony Manifesto]

Is there really no common ground between the movement advocating women's rights and the movement advocating men's rights? It seems absurd to me that two sides who claim they want the same thing are at each others throats all the time.

 

[ColonelColon]

You're right. It only needs one question - "Do you think men and women should be equal?"

No. You could think all people should have equal opportunities without subscribing to every idea and concept propagated by feminism.

 

[freddy]

This is clearly and utterly bullshit.

It's cattleshit, dude. Don't be gender bias.

 

[lopaz]

haha, holy shit. i know it takes all kinds to make the world go round but come on, bro

also gotta love the "i speak to lots of women!" - it's like the MRA equivalent of "i have a black friend"

dude someone EXPLICITLY questioned whether I have contact with women because of my views. "I have a black friend" is actually a valid thing to say if someone accuses you of hating all black people, because why, if that was the case, would you have a black friend?

So you're saying that the idea that men must act a certain way has nothing to do with male elders controlling a society and punishing any male that dares even cross the line.

The same society where nobody bats an eye at a girl wearing jeans but a boy wearing a dress is 'wrong'.

The same society where a man who calls another man good looking is a 'fag' while a woman touching another woman's breasts is considered cute or sexy.

The same society where men are told by other men to not cry because that makes you a bitch. The society where men who have been raped cannot get help because other men will consider them broken for not enjoying the sex if raped by a female or a 'fag' if raped by a male. There are some societies where a woman who is raped is executed because she 'let' the man rape her from being too womanly.

There is a distinct advantage to being male. It's not an advantage that towers over us and is blatantly obvious. It's a bunch of little things here and there that build up.


I don't think people are thinking about the literal number of men in power when they're talking about patriarchy. They're talking about how men are heavily advantaged from a male-power-centric society. We still don't have equal rights for women in the United States. There are states where the wife is still considered the property of the man in legal matters. In my home state, the husband can go get clipped with no input or consent from his wife; the wife needs him to legally sign off on getting her tubes tied.

you just reeled off a bunch of examples where men are discriminated against and then said it's because men are privileged. Do you not see your own doublethink here?

Also there are various places with regulations where the wife needs to be consulted about vasectomies. I agree that both are stupid, people should be allowed to do both on their own say-so

 

[CHEEZMO™]

HAHAHAHA oh wow. I just realised how fucking stupid one of the main talking points of the MRA "movement" is. The whole "men died in wars" shit.

I wonder why women weren't sent off in the military to die. Couldn't have anything to do with sexist attitudes, I'm sure.

 

[Riggs]

As a comparative example, I want to say that I've very rarely seen or heard racism in my life. I don't mean simply directed at me, which is unlikely because I'm a white male, I mean directed at anyone. As far as I can personally tell, racism doesn't seem like a big problem anymore.

And yet, there is strong evidence that my personal viewpoint may be skewed by my position in life:

There is strong evidence that people with "black names" have more trouble getting hired.

Black men make substantially less than white men, even when adjusted for education level.

What this tells me is that even though I cannot see or feel or taste or touch racism, it clearly still exists and has serious effects on the lives of black people in the United States. My personal experience is a poor guide, and large scale data sets and studies are far more persuasive than my personal inability to see why black people have it so bad.

I think the same basic principles should be applied to our discussion of women, especially since women are discriminated against in many of the same ways, including a wage gap.

Sorry but you cannot compare the plight of black people to the hard ships of women. It's just bullshit. I respect you Opiate from the times I've talked with you, but got to disagree. I will get shitted on for this, whatever though. I have so many successful women in my life I just cannot buy this crap anymore.


Btw I am a virgin.

 

[Cipherr]

Is there really no common ground between the movement advocating women's rights and the movement advocating men's rights? It seems absurd to me that two sides who claim they want the same thing are at each others throats all the time.

There is, its the radicals on both sides that screw it all up. There really shouldn't even be two different names for them.

 

[JABEE]

I think the issue is recognizing that there has been and still is a great deal of inequality between men and women. Women haven't really had the opportunity to have economic freedom until the 70s.

I think a lot of the problems Men's rights advocates are having is that a lot of the laws on the books were made during a time that legislators had to favor women. It was a result of protecting the well fare of women who were tossed aside and stranded without having the opportunity to acquire skills or the role models and teachers needed to succeed in the United States.

A lot of things have changed since those laws have been put onto the books and cultural norms have been widely adopted, but it's going to take more time to establish a culture where a generation or two of women have had the opportunity for economic freedom before you can remove a lot of society's safety nets and protections that benefit disadvantaged women.

It may not be entirely fair, but trying to paint the world as out to get men is kind of crazy. No one really has equality if you break everything down, but laws are made often to benefit the most people and prevent suffering. I think there is a way to advocate change without becoming a masculinist.

I don't know.

I dont think its fair that women are called women and men aren't called women.

This is not the place for Patriot jokes.