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[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Someone didnt play simcity 4 and experience its transportation model.

I certainly did. I also experienced the mods which basically fixed a large share of the problems. I would have thought a game that came out ten years later could have address them and more at scale. Instead we have fewer transportation options.

 

[Rentahamster]

A deeper more complex simulation is great if it actually provides a more realistic result than other forms of modeling. I'm not sold that the trade off of such a complex simulation in exchange for smaller less dynamic cities is a net positive.

I wasn't at first, either. But then I played the game.

Not everyone will feel the same, though, or endeavor to even give it a chance.

 

[Spl1nter]

I certainly did. I also experienced the mods which basically fixed a large share of the problems. I would have thought a game that came out ten years later could have address them and more at scale. Instead we have fewer transportation options.

One that still has issues. I dont think the complexity of NAM is a realistic way of making a game more than the hardcore which still play simcity 4 will play. Not to mention all the technical issues of simcity 4.

 

[SRTtoZ]

I wonder if everyone questioning city size and the engine has actually played the Beta?

 

[eznark]

RE:Gerst

I feel like a lot of the "hardcore" players don't really understand the complexity of the new simulation engine just yet.

I'm pretty hardcore, but once I realized that your sims are no longer data entries on tables, but that each individual sim is actually generated and simulated, it changed my entire outlook on the game.

I don't think a lot of people appreciate how mind blowing that is.

Why is that something I want in a city simulator?

 

[Dark Octave]

I want to see if the game gets criticized for its DRM, arbitrary forced social features, in-game store, and massive amount of DLC at release.

No point in criticizing the future, bro.

It's easier to just embrace it.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

One that still has issues. I dont think the complexity of NAM is a realistic way of making a game more than the hardcore which still play simcity 4 will play. Not to mention all the technical issues of simcity 4.

I'm not sure why you're acting as if their ability to model would have stayed at the same technical level it was in sim city 4 ten years later though.

 

[Filth]

gah dang it.. just tried to unlock using vpn.... never unlocked any other game before donno if i messed up the order in which to do things. :/



is there anyone that used vpn on that i could pm with one question?

 

[peppermints]

Why is that something I want in a city simulator?

Cities won't exist/function without people.

 

[eznark]

Cities won't exist/function without people.

There have always been people in SimCity games.

 

[Row]

Cities won't exist/function without people.

mayors, city planners, etc. don't go around asking every single citizen what they want, it's not practical at all

 

[Spl1nter]

I'm not sure why you're acting as if their ability to model would have stayed at the same technical level it was in sim city 4 ten years later though.

There are inherent issues with that model. Having everything be agents enabled more possibilities and makes it easier to display information. Otherwise everything you see on the screen is an approximation.

 

[Rentahamster]

I certainly did. I also experienced the mods which basically fixed a large share of the problems. I would have thought a game that came out ten years later could have address them and more at scale. Instead we have fewer transportation options.

"Fixing" the "sims commuting based on shortest distance instead of shortest time" problem isn't necessarily making the engine more "realistic".

Roads in SC4 can get congested, but only up until 30% degradation. Thus, they have "unlimited" capacity. Roads in SC4 will never get overloaded to the point where the sims can't go anywhere. This can happen in SC5 and you need to plan your city well to work around this problem.

Commuting in SC4 is only calculated in terms of work. No leisure time, no transportation of goods or services, (with the exception of freight). In SC5, sims commute for work, for play, for health, for school, etc.

Work commute inSC4 (morning and evening) was also averaged into a single work day, and that's all you'd ever see. There was a morning and evening commute statistic, but never actually happened. You see and experience morning and evening rush hour evolve in your city in real time in SC5.

Buses in SC4 only carried one sim per bus

 

[eznark]

mayors, city planners, etc. don't go around asking every single citizen what they want, it's not practical at all

Pretending that "realism" is the reason for any of these decisions is so incredibly lazy. Go watch you local city council when it's time to pass the annual budget. Or watch your local economic development organizations try and grow commerce. There is nothing realistic about the way SimCity operates so a lazy "well that's how real cities work" is an asinine response.

 

[Rentahamster]

Why is that something I want in a city simulator?

Because....

Why is that something I want in a city simulator?

key word, "simulator"

 

[ndawgdrake]

PC Gamers pre-review thoughts

 

[eznark]

Because....



key word, "simulator"

Go down to city hall and find out how long it will take to build an airport. Going on 12 years in a local community here. Simulator indeed!

 

[whatsinaname]

RE:Gerst

I feel like a lot of the "hardcore" players don't really understand the complexity of the new simulation engine just yet.

I'm pretty hardcore, but once I realized that your sims are no longer data entries on tables, but that each individual sim is actually generated and simulated, it changed my entire outlook on the game.

I don't think a lot of people appreciate how mind blowing that is.

People do understand but you have to ask if that level of simulation should have been attempted given technological limitations. The game is branded as SimCity and that is what the audience who comes in for that name are looking for. Not Sims: The Big City.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

"Fixing" the "sims commuting based on shortest distance instead of shortest time" problem isn't necessarily making the engine more "realistic".

Roads in SC4 can get congested, but only up until 30% degradation. Thus, they have "unlimited" capacity. Roads in SC4 will never get overloaded to the point where the sims can't go anywhere. This can happen in SC5 and you need to plan your city well to work around this problem.

Commuting in SC4 is only calculated in terms of work. No leisure time, no transportation of goods or services, (with the exception of freight). In SC5, sims commute for work, for play, for health, for school, etc.

Work commute inSC4 (morning and evening) was also averaged into a single work day, and that's all you'd ever see. There was a morning and evening commute statistic, but never actually happened. You see and experience morning and evening rush hour evolve in your city in real time in SC5.

Buses in SC4 only carried one sim per bus

And absolutely none of that requires individual sims to be modelled. It just needs a more robust traffic engineering model. Again, they are all great features, but they are features that could feasibly have been implemented and still not come with the tradeoffs we're stuck with.

 

[Perkel]

There are inherent issues with that model. Having everything be agents enabled more possibilities and makes it easier to display information. Otherwise everything you see on the screen is an approximation.

You can't have city simulation without approximation. Even new SimCity simulation model is build on this.

And yeah old SC4 transportation system with NAM is leagues above that in SC.
Frankly i can't get why they had to butcher transportation system between cities.

 

[stufte]

I wonder if everyone questioning city size and the engine has actually played the Beta?

This. I was skeptical before I played the beta(s) and wasn't at all concerned after I played it.

 

[LuchaShaq]

PC Gamers pre-review thoughts

34 hours in yet

I haven’t yet surpassed 200,000 residents...Even if my city is completely gridded, it constantly tells me there’s high residential and industrial demand, which implies I’m doing something wrong. “Zone more residential!” is says. “GIVE ME BIGGER BORDERS, THEN.”

Yup....kinda medium sized town simulator 5! fuck cities right?

 

[Spl1nter]

You can't have city simulation without approximation. Even new SimCity simulation model is build on this.

And yeah old SC4 transportation system with NAM is leagues above that in SC.
Frankly i can't get why they had to butcher transportation system between cities.

No you actually see each individual sim going to their destination there is no approximation they are right there on your screen. The same cant be said for sc4. Not to mention transportation between cities was the most broken aspect of the sc4 simulation.

 

[eznark]

34 hours in yet



Yup....kinda medium sized town simulator 5! fuck cities right?

You're totally misrepresenting that comment

I must have built up and scrapped 20 cities by now

 

[Rentahamster]

Go down to city hall and find out how long it will take to build an airport. Going on 12 years in a local community here. Simulator indeed!

That's what cheetah speed is for. Plus, it's a game, first and foremost.

People do understand but you have to ask if that level of simulation should have been attempted given technological limitations. The game is branded as SimCity and that is what the audience who comes in for that name are looking for. Not Sims: The Big City.

As someone who once thought the same way. I no longer feel that way after playing the game.

And absolutely none of that requires individual sims to be modelled. It just needs a more robust traffic engineering model. Again, they are all great features, but they are features that could feasibly have been implemented and still not come with the tradeoffs we're stuck with.

Even with a "more robust traffic engineering model", all you'll ever be doing is playing a glorified spreadsheet with graphics. Glassbox is much more than that. Give Maxis some time to develop it further. SimCity Classic didn't become SimCity 4 overnight.

 

[eznark]

That's what cheetah speed is for. Plus, it's a game, first and foremost.

Sim at times, game when convenient.

Must be nice to have dedicated fans.

 

[Rentahamster]

34 hours in yet



Yup....kinda medium sized town simulator 5! fuck cities right?

PC Gamer reviewer is only thinking of planning in terms of sprawl, not density upgrades. He needs to keep his sims happy and employed to do that. Easier said than done.

If he really wants to add more residential sprawl, he can always zone in a new city in the same cluster.

The real challenge is getting the rest of his residential zones in his main city to upgrade density.

 

[antonz]

The limitations of the game aren't the studios fault they are EAs. EA wants to make sure the game can be played by any person who has ever liked Sim City even those playing on a 5+ year old computer sadly. This means we get to suffer. Just like Blizzard designing their games to be so backwards friendly.

They could have easily made this a 64bit Quad core munching beast and sure it would be a hell of a lot better but EA wants the money from everyone not a limited market.

 

[Rentahamster]

Sim at times, game when convenient.

Must be nice to have dedicated fans.

It's a game of a city simulator. What's the problem here?

I'm not even sure what the point you're arguing is.

 

[eznark]

It's a game of a city simulator. What's the problem here?

I'm not even sure what the point you're arguing is.

It's a simulator so it needs to have realistic people!

It's a game so it obviously isn't going to have city council's refusing to pass your budget or decades long projects killed by sequester!

The developers have no problem making tradeoffs in their shallow simulator in order to make the game more fun. I don't see how more realistic ants make a god game more interesting.

EA wants to make sure the game can be played by any person who has ever liked Sim City even those playing on a 5+ year old computer sadly.

Gerstmann has a pretty up to date rig and he said it chugs.

 

[mavs]

Apparently you can't turn off disasters. I'm going to go through this game as thoroughly as I have for any of my favorite games. But, Ocean Quigley, I hope Will Wright slaps you in your fucking face.

 

[goldsoundz]

I've given my soul to our corporate overlords long ago, so the always online thing doesn't bother me. I only play PC games on a desktop that has an ethernet cable connected at all times. My laptop is capable of running games, but why would I want to do that? Besides, who that was ever interested in this game is the always online requirement a surprise to? I love games that save at their own discretion (I don't mean every 15 minutes! constant saves, like Dark Souls) and force a player to live with the consequences of their actions.

The biggest problem most of us have is with the city size. I'm confident that will be fixed at some point, but I'm looking forward to the sim-heavier focus.

 

[Rentahamster]

It's a simulator so it needs to have realistic people!

It's a game so it obviously isn't going to have city council's refusing to pass your budget or decades long projects killed by sequester!

It doesn't "need" to have realistic people. That was a design decision in order to make the game more complex and organic. That is the process in developing the simulation aspect. They made it much more deeper than in previous games.

It's not going to have stupid government bureaucracy because that's not fun at all. This is a god game; it's a dictatorship, not a democracy.

Being a game and being a simulation are not mutually exclusive. The devs in all these types of games decide on the balance between the two and include the most fun and engaging aspects of both.

The developers have no problem making tradeoffs in their shallow simulator in order to make the game more fun. I don't see how more realistic ants make a god game more interesting.

Because they are actual ants now, and not spreadsheet approximations.

"Fixing" the "sims commuting based on shortest distance instead of shortest time" problem isn't necessarily making the engine more "realistic".

Roads in SC4 can get congested, but only up until 30% degradation. Thus, they have "unlimited" capacity. Roads in SC4 will never get overloaded to the point where the sims can't go anywhere. This can happen in SC5 and you need to plan your city well to work around this problem.

Commuting in SC4 is only calculated in terms of work. No leisure time, no transportation of goods or services, (with the exception of freight). In SC5, sims commute for work, for play, for health, for school, etc.

Work commute inSC4 (morning and evening) was also averaged into a single work day, and that's all you'd ever see. There was a morning and evening commute statistic, but never actually happened. You see and experience morning and evening rush hour evolve in your city in real time in SC5.

Buses in SC4 only carried one sim per bus

 

[MThanded]

http://www.giantbomb.com/

dat simcity live quicklook

 

[Paches]

I've given my soul to our corporate overlords long ago, so the always online thing doesn't bother me. I only play PC games on a desktop that has an ethernet cable connected at all times. My laptop is capable of running games, but why would I want to do that? Besides, who that was ever interested in this game is the always online requirement a surprise to? I love games that save at their own discretion (I don't mean every 15 minutes! constant saves, like Dark Souls) and force a player to live with the consequences of their actions.

The biggest problem most of us have is with the city size. I'm confident that will be fixed at some point, but I'm looking forward to the sim-heavier focus.

Yeah, for a $15 dollar fee.

 

[notoriousKTR]

Also note that all the roads used are the largest and widest roads possible.

That's because you need high density roads to have high density buildings.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

I see Polygon continues the hyperbolic description of the games they are supposed to critically review

Yeah Polygon reviews aren't even worth considering, seeing as these are the same guys who game Mass Effect 3 and Diablo III 9s and 10s.

 

[Rentahamster]

That's because you need high density roads to have high density buildings.

There is a single tile high density road too.

I'm just saying that if you look at that picture thinking those avenues are supposed to be narrow 4-lane roads, it'll mess up your perspective.

 

[eznark]

It doesn't "need" to have realistic people. That was a design decision in order to make the game more complex and organic. That is the process in developing the simulation aspect. They made it much more deeper than in previous games.

It's not going to have stupid government bureaucracy because that's not fun at all. This is a god game; it's a dictatorship, not a democracy.

Being a game and being a simulation are not mutually exclusive. The devs in all these types of games decide on the balance between the two and include the most fun and engaging aspects of both.



Because they are actual ants now, and not spreadsheet approximations.

I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive. I'm saying they have made countless decisions that have led to the game being less of a simulation, a few more to say make the maps larger or having the ability to control disasters isn't some breach of the Pure Simulator Designers Code.

And I still don't get what being able to watch some Sim go from his apartment to his job adds to the experience of a city simulator.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive.

You did when you used the "you can't have it both ways" argument.

I'm saying they have made countless decisions that have led to the game being less of a simulation, a few more to say make the maps larger or having the ability to control disasters isn't some breach of the Pure Simulator Designers Code.

You can control disasters in sandbox mode.

Larger maps at this moment in time would increase the minimum specs, which is something they didn't want to do. Personally, I would have preferred they did, but that's their call.

This game is nowhere near "less of a simulation". It's is much more complex than before.

It went from a simulation that approximates behavior and pathing via spreadsheet calculations, to a simulation that actually generates each individual citizen, their pathing, their desires, and their interactions with the thousands of other individual agents. That is nowhere near "less of a simulation".

And I still don't get what being able to watch some Sim go from his apartment to his job adds to the experience of a city simulator.

That's the subjective part of being a game. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Some will, some won't. Have you played the full game? Were you in the beta 3?

 

[goldsoundz]

Yeah, for a $15 dollar fee.

$15? I wish. I expect $40 for an expansion pack, which is where the city size limitation will likely be fixed.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

You did when you used the "you can't have it both ways" argument.


You can control disasters in sandbox mode.

Larger maps at this moment in time would increase the minimum specs, which is something they didn't want to do. Personally, I would have preferred they did, but that's their call.

This game is nowhere near "less of a simulation". It's is much more complex than before.

It went from a simulation that approximates behavior and pathing via spreadsheet calculations, to a simulation that actually generates each individual citizen, their pathing, their desires, and their interactions with the thousands of other individual agents. That is nowhere near "less of a simulation".


That's the subjective part of being a game. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Some will, some won't. Have you played the full game? Were you in the beta 3?

You're completely willing to discount all of the areas in which it regressed in terms of simulation. I don't think reducing city size, traffic management options, controls on zoning density, etc is a good trade off for better traffic pathing, or even a necessary trade off. That's the biggest issue.

I think a great sort of example of how silly it seems to me is that they spend all of this time modelling individual sims, but then completely ignore something as easy and fundamental as mixed-use zoning. Especially when you factor in the smaller city size, since mixed use zoning is probably the single best way to create density.

 

[firehawk12]

Backlash before the game even comes out! Awesome!

 

[goldsoundz]

Backlash before the game even comes out! Awesome!

The game sucks. I've seen it (being played by someone else).

People are so opposed to always online requirements. I guess I can understand why that would be a problem for those who like to play on the go with a laptop, but for anyone with a desktop gaming PC I don't see how it matters. Must be a principal-based thing. Video games are changing, dudes.

 

[Rentahamster]

You're completely willing to discount all of the areas in which it regressed in terms of simulation. I don't think reducing city size, traffic management options, controls on zoning density, etc is a good trade off for better traffic pathing, or even a necessary trade off. That's the biggest issue.

I'm not trying to discount those things. It would be nice if we had them all, but it's not feasible right now. I'm not particularly concerned since the devs said that those are all things they want to add into the game.

You have to start somewhere.

You can control zoning density via road type.

 

[MThanded]

The game sucks. I've seen it (being played by someone else).

People are so opposed to always online requirements. I guess I can understand why that would be a problem for those who like to play on the go with a laptop, but for anyone with a desktop gaming PC I don't see how it matters. Must be a principal-based thing. Video games are changing, dudes.

I'm fine with the always online reqs. This GB quicklook is a downer though. I've come to terms with the always online, not so happy about the city sizes. I am a very indecisive person though so these mixed reviews are really making it a pain for me lol.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I'm not trying to discount those things. It would be nice if we had them all, but it's not feasible right now. I'm not particularly concerned since the devs said that those are all things they want to add into the game.

You have to start somewhere.

You can control zoning density via road type.

That's not controlling zoning density. Some of the absolute busiest, densest neighborhoods around where I live are the smallest streets, due to their proximity to mixed use zoning and mass transit. Sometimes you want larger streets to use as thoroughfares to high density areas, but don't want high density zoning around them. It's a bad model. They should have given users the option to create density or use the automatically assigned densities.

Anyway, maybe you're not discounting the issues, but saying "the devs want to fix them" or "they're not feasible right now" doesn't make the game better for it.

 

[mavs]

That's not controlling zoning density. Some of the absolute busiest, densest neighborhoods around where I live are the smallest streets, due to their proximity to mixed use zoning and mass transit. Sometimes you want larger streets to use as thoroughfares to high density areas, but don't want high density zoning around them. It's a bad model. They should have given users the option to create density or use the automatically assigned densities.

Anyway, maybe you're not discounting the issues, but saying "the devs want to fix them" or "they're not feasible right now" doesn't make the game better for it.

There's only two sizes of roads, with three(?) levels of density each. So you can put high density buildings on a road that started out as a dirt road, you upgrade the capability but not the size of the actual road.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

There's only two sizes of roads, with three(?) levels of density each. So you can put high density buildings on a road that started out as a dirt road, you upgrade the capability but not the size of the actual road.

I guess I'd have to play with it more to understand. Unfortunately I wasn't in the beta and just watched Let's Plays on the game. Unfortunately I don't think they are releasing a demo, so until the price drops greatly I won't get a chance.

 

[mavs]

I guess I'd have to play with it more to understand. Unfortunately I wasn't in the beta and just watched Let's Plays on the game. Unfortunately I don't think they are releasing a demo, so until the price drops greatly I won't get a chance.

I'm sure the city journals on Simtropolis will go into enough detail once the top players really get going.