VGLeaks rumor: Durango CPU Overview

Deuterium said:
In that case, when is the earliest opportunity that we may get some "fresh" information with regards to Durango. Would it be the Game Developer's Conference?
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Who knows? Probably after the official MS unveiling in April. I would assume the GDC stuff would again just be info privy to 3rd part developers. GPU and CPU stuff maybe, with more sources to confirm the specs.

A lot of the under the hood stuff, as well as MS wider plans for the platform, would not be provided to devs (outside of things like always online and mandatory installs, as these would impact game design).

There is still loads we don't know about the PS4, even after the official reveal. The juicy stuff will still be internal info at Sony, known by the select few.
 
SPE said:
Because it's an internal MS event. So hugely unlikely that anyone would jeopardize their own position, or screw up major product planning for their own company.

The leaks so far have been based on documents provided to 3rd party developers. Hence no info on BC, security, background OS tasks, apps etc.
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Are we sure it's just an internal event? This conference, called START I believe, is different from TechFest. And there seems to be a retail component as well. In fact, the timing of this conference is interesting, in that we had a Durango conference in Feb. of last year.
 
Aasir Osu said:
Are we sure it's just an internal event? This conference, called START I believe, is different from TechFest. And there seems to be a retail component as well. In fact, the timing of this conference is interesting, in that we had a Durango conference in Feb. of last year.
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There are a bunch of presentations that are marked invite only so technically it could include other people outside of Microsoft.
 
RoboPlato said:
If they did then that article was likely 100% true.
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Na, you don't want false information being passed around as fact either. I'm not saying what they have is wrong but you would use a C&D when someone has unauthorized access to confidential information/infringing on copyright material/defacing a company.
 
Bsigg12 said:
Na, you don't want false information being passed around as fact either. I'm not saying what they have is wrong but you would use a C&D when someone has unauthorized access to confidential information/infringing on copyright material/defacing a company.
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No point in talking about it since the article came back 5 minutes later.
 
Bsigg12 said:
Na, you don't want false information being passed around as fact either. I'm not saying what they have is wrong but you would use a C&D when someone has unauthorized access to confidential information/infringing on copyright material/defacing a company.
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You can't C&D against fabricated information, unless that info is libellous or slanders. The way MS got the Yukon presentation taken down was on copyright grounds. Which in itself confirmed it was a genuine MS document.

Making up pretend technical specs has no legal ground for MS (or another else) to have it brought down.

This could mean that the VGLeaks info isn't accurate, as MS could have the same claim to bring it down if it was true. But in bringing it down, they would confirm it... So might just want to not comment.
 
SPE said:
You can't C&D against fabricated information, unless that info is libellous or slanders. The way MS got the Yukon presentation taken down was on copyright grounds. Which in itself confirmed it was a genuine MS document.

Making up pretend technical specs has no legal ground for MS (or another else) to have it brought down.

This could mean that the VGLeaks info isn't accurate, as MS could have the same claim to bring it down if it was true. But in bringing it down, they would confirm it... So might just want to not comment.
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I don't think that Microsoft would have legal ground to take down a rewriting of the information provided in a confidential document...
 
Pistolero said:
I don't think that Microsoft would have legal ground to take down a rewriting of the information provided in a confidential document...
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Bingo, the way vgleaks is going about things Microsoft/Sony has 0 recourse to take down the information they have.
 
Sylonious said:
There's already someone on TXB quoting this as the official specs for the next xbox, SMH. Let's keep it realistic.
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Stupid people believe anything. And by stupid people, I mean people willing to believe anything that makes their platform of choice seem more powerful than the competition. Even if they KNOW what they're reading is complete bull.
 
Angelus Errare said:
Stupid people believe anything. And by stupid people, I mean people willing to believe anything that makes their platform of choice seem more powerful than the competition. Even if they KNOW what they're reading is complete bull.
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This seems par for the course for some websites / groups of people and it happens every gen its like people don't learn :/
 
SPE said:
It's just conformation bias. Seeking out sources that confirm to your already held beliefs, rather than one that provide true information.

See also: People who watch Fox News
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To be fair, people do that for all kinds of media, liberals and conservatives included.

For the record, I acknowledge that Fox News is particularly ludicrous.
 
grumble said:
To be fair, people do that for all kinds of media, liberals and conservatives included.

For the record, I acknowledge that Fox News is particularly ludicrous.
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Not only that but there was a study that showed people that watch Fox are less informed than people who don't watch the news at all. But it could have been some pinko commie socialist giving handouts that passed that to me in the breadline.
 
SlickShoesRUCrazy said:
today is the majority of the conferences. Specifically the Xbox Platform Deep Dive and Xbox Gold & Entertainment conferences are the ones that stick out the most for information.
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Yeah, but we were told a leak would today by one of the crazies, so its obvious what he said was bunk.
 
onQ123 said:
They should bump the retail model to 10GB so the 3 GB for the OS wouldn't leave them at a big disadvantage against the PS4.
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Expect this would require them to spend money and redesign the memory because it requires a different memory width.
 
NBtoaster said:
12GB
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So they could ship with 12GB in retail consoles - didn't someone say that's how they managed to switch to 512Mb so quickly on the 360 - they just used the devkit motherboards?

That'd at least give them 8Gb for games, vs maybe 7 for PS4, much better that the rumoured 5GB free.

Or they might not bother, figuring they've balanced the entire system around what they have now.
 
I think they should re-call all the devkits, produce about 3000 more then cover them all in a thin, white carton box with the words: 'Xbox 3' across the top in permanent marker (so you can't rub it off). They can ship to retailers in two months or so like this.

Bin Durango idea, because Xbox fans are not happy with it.
 
it's kinda crazy how in just a few months we went from wondering how PS4's 2GB of GDDR5 was going to compare with Xbox3's 8GB of DDR3 to now wondering how Xbox3's 5GB of DDR3 for games is going to compare with the PS4's 7GB of GDDR5 for games.


& from Xbox3 being called a Super Computer / High End Computer/ The Xbox( vs PS2 & GC ) & PS4 being a off the shelf Mid range PC / Walmart $200 Emachine / PS2 or GameCube (vs Xbox) to this.
 
onQ123 said:
it's kinda crazy how in just a few months we went from wondering how PS4's 2GB of GDDR5 was going to compare with Xbox3's 8GB of DDR3 to now wondering how Xbox3's 5GB of DDR3 for games is going to compare with the PS4's 7GB of GDDR5 for games.


& from Xbox3 being called a Super Computer / High End Computer/ The Xbox( vs PS2 & GC ) & PS4 being a off the shelf Mid range PC / Walmart $200 Emachine / PS2 or GameCube (vs Xbox) to this.
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images
 
onQ123 said:
it's kinda crazy how in just a few months we went from wondering how PS4's 2GB of GDDR5 was going to compare with Xbox3's 8GB of DDR3 to now wondering how Xbox3's 5GB of DDR3 for games is going to compare with the PS4's 7GB of GDDR5 for games.


& from Xbox3 being called a Super Computer / High End Computer/ The Xbox( vs PS2 & GC ) & PS4 being a off the shelf Mid range PC / Walmart $200 Emachine / PS2 or GameCube (vs Xbox) to this.
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"This" being PS4 assumed slightly to marginally more powerful?

And no matter what OS resources are reserved initially, Durango still has the same amount of RAM and the same CPU (apparently) as the PS4. Not less. They can always tweak OS/CPU usage later, plus we dont know what Orbis OS/CPU usage will be, or final clocks for either machine.

I want new infos...leaks welcome from pseudo event...worst case, April 26 seems less far away now, it's already Mar 7. By the time Gears Judgement comes out, it'll be almost only a month away!
 
specialguy said:
"This" being PS4 assumed slightly to marginally more powerful?

And no matter what OS resources are reserved initially, Durango still has the same amount of RAM and the same CPU (apparently) as the PS4. Not less. They can always tweak OS/CPU usage later, plus we dont know what Orbis OS/CPU usage will be, or final clocks for either machine.

I want new infos...leaks welcome from pseudo event...worst case, April 26 seems less far away now, it's already Mar 7. By the time Gears Judgement comes out, it'll be almost only a month away!
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I don't think we have the same definition of "marginally". +50% isn't "marginally", and that's only GPU processing power. Bandwidth difference for the 8 GB main RAM is even bigger (+150%).
 
onQ123 said:
it's kinda crazy how in just a few months we went from wondering how PS4's 2GB of GDDR5 was going to compare with Xbox3's 8GB of DDR3 to now wondering how Xbox3's 5GB of DDR3 for games is going to compare with the PS4's 7GB of GDDR5 for games.


& from Xbox3 being called a Super Computer / High End Computer/ The Xbox( vs PS2 & GC ) & PS4 being a off the shelf Mid range PC / Walmart $200 Emachine / PS2 or GameCube (vs Xbox) to this.
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With regards to the "5GB of DDR3", remember that the 3GB "OS footprint" is likely a safe barrier at launch, allowing them some bandwidth to add some additional services etc in the future. They can always reduce this over time as and when they feel it viable to do so. However, they wouldn't be able to do the opposite. So it's really just a safety net. I doubt the footprint will remain at 3GB over the entire course of the console's lifespan. After all, PS3's OS footprint also dramatically reduced over time.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Sony may also increase their OS footprint as a safety net too, now that they've gone from 4GB to 8GB of memory. It doesn't necessarily mean that developers are going to get another 4GB to play with - the memory increase decision may have a basis beyond gaming.
 
Gemüsepizza;49290462 said:
I don't think we have the same definition of "marginally". +50% isn't "marginally", and that's only GPU processing power.
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Well since they have the same amount of RAM and apparently the same CPU...

I guess here we can get into the "GDDR5 contains magic fairy dust" thing. But personally, I think the ESRAM and DME's will render DDR3 just fine (after all, that's why they're there, and they're not free). Thus imo, 8GB DDR3 in Durango~8 GB GDDR5 in PS4. Especially if the Durango has that much less GPU to feed anyway (12 CU's and 16 ROPS would simply need less BW than 18/32 in the first place).

I also, biased guy that i am, hold out hope the low latency ESRAM can help the 12 CU's in Durango punch above their weight (ERP wrote posts on this). Or for a late clock bump by MS to counteract the 8GB thing, or a RAM bump, or SOMETHING. Guess we hopefully find out no later than april 26. Mark Rein did say "cant wait to see how MS responds to this" about the 8GB in PS4.
 
specialguy said:
Well since they have the same amount of RAM and apparently the same CPU...

I guess here we can get into the "GDDR5 contains magic fairy dust" thing. But personally, I think the ESRAM and DME's will render DDR3 just fine (after all, that's why they're there). Thus imo, 8GB DDR3 in Durango~8 GB GDDR5 in PS4. Especially if the Durango has that much less GPU to feed anyway.
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sustained throughput from that ram will still be limited by the 68GB/s. Although the lower GPU capacity might balance that out. I fully expect the system to be balanced between the GPU capability, the esram and the DDR3. so it'll be a very efficient system.

That still leaves the question of how well the PS4 can tap its potential GPU power. The customisations to the ring and ACEs suggests they are doing a lot to increase efficiency too and keep the GPU filled with things to do.

There is clear potential for both to be similarly efficient, which puts us back to comparing 50% more CUs and twice as many ROPs.
 
specialguy said:
"This" being PS4 assumed slightly to marginally more powerful?

And no matter what OS resources are reserved initially, Durango still has the same amount of RAM and the same CPU (apparently) as the PS4. Not less. They can always tweak OS/CPU usage later, plus we dont know what Orbis OS/CPU usage will be, or final clocks for either machine.
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Sorry but this is not slightly more powerful if the specs stay the same & their is no other chips that's going to help out this is far from slightly.


would you put a 150 lbs boxer in the ring with a boxer who is 225 lbs & faster & call it a slight difference.
 
specialguy said:
Well since they have the same amount of RAM and apparently the same CPU...
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CPU is 0.1 TFLOPS. That's a very small amount of the whole processing power.

I guess here we can get into the "GDDR5 contains magic fairy dust" thing.
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What part of "176GB/s" would you label as "magic fairy dust"?

But personally, I think the ESRAM and DME's will render DDR3 just fine (after all, that's why they're there).
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What do you mean with "render DDR3"? And from what I have heard from several people (that Ubisoft guy from the Watch Dogs development team or sebbbi from beyond3D), a solution with DDR3 is definitely inferior to a solution with GDDR5. Do you have any hard numbers for your assumptions?

Thus imo, 8GB DDR3 in Durango~8 GB GDDR5 in PS4.
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Right...

Especially if the Durango has that much less GPU to feed anyway.
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That's a way to spin it. Because X3 has a less powerful GPU it doesn't even need as much bandwidth as the PS4, therefore 8GB DDR3 = 8 GB GDDR5 and Xbox 3 = ~PS4.
 
Pistolero said:
The guys at Edge proved to be pretty reliable so far, and they reported a slight advantage for Orbis. Their words, chief!
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I wouldn't be surprised if that was to keep the peace.

I can imagine a large number of rabid fans wouldn't visit a site if they dared said something bad against their console
 
Pistolero said:
To me, a 20, 30 or even a 40% difference in usable power is still a small advantage. Semantics, really...
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if things are the way they are looking right now it's going to be

30% more CPU power for games

50% more Memory for games

50% more GPU power

150% faster main memory

100% more ROPs


where does the 20, 30 , 40% come from?
 
mrklaw said:
That still leaves the question of how well the PS4 can tap its potential GPU power. The customisations to the ring and ACEs suggests they are doing a lot to increase efficiency too and keep the GPU filled with things to do.

There is clear potential for both to be similarly efficient, which puts us back to comparing 50% more CUs and twice as many ROPs.
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I think that when devs make full use of that 8GB GDDR5 ram (or as much as is reasonable), the GPU will already have plenty to feed off trying to render all what's being thrown its way from that massive bandwidth memory.

No doubt maxing the GPU out wouldn't be very difficult looking at the components of the rest of the machine.
 
onQ123 said:
if things are the way they are looking right now it's going to be

30% more CPU power for games

50% more Memory for games

50% more GPU power

150% faster main memory

100% more ROPs


where does the 20, 30 , 40% come from?
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Putting it like that it's not a 'small advantage'.

But like I said earlier in this thread - prepare fora game at the Xbox 3 unveil that, visually speaking, looks in the same ballpark as KZ:SF and Deep Down.
 
30% more CPU power for games
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? Same CPU! IMO there's no word on how many cores or memory Sony will reserve, but I assume at least 1. So at best you'd have a difference of 1 core, which is way <30%. Even if you dont even reserve a full core for the OS, a core must always be available on demand, meaning it's functionality for games is limited. So unless Sony literally has a separate CPU to to run the OS, there's no way to escape using at least one core for all practical purposes.

50% more Memory for games
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Once again, ? I'd assume at least 1GB PS4 reserved for games, probably more, so at current rumors a 7-5 GB edge at best.


50% more GPU power
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This one's true, provided the rumors are correct and ERP's ESRAM theories dont hold any water.

150% faster main memory
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I suppose, but there's the esram and dme's. for the millionth time straight comparing main memory bandwidth is not the full picture.

100% more ROPs
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sure. not sure they're not overkill for 1080p but yes.

The bottom line is the CPU and RAM amounts are the same, and any OS resources for either machine are speculation and subject to later change besides that.
 
Coulomb_Barrier said:
Putting it like that it's not a 'small advantage'.

But like I said earlier in this thread - prepare fora game at the Xbox 3 unveil that, visually speaking, looks in the same ballpark as KZ:SF and Deep Down.
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Well, they will probably demo Deep Down at the Xbox 3 unveiling so that wouldnt be surprising. Also, I agree that whatever 343 are producing will look great, although it is probably too early for an unveiling this year, at least before e3
 
pswii60 said:
With regards to the "5GB of DDR3", remember that the 3GB "OS footprint" is likely a safe barrier at launch, allowing them some bandwidth to add some additional services etc in the future. They can always reduce this over time as and when they feel it viable to do so. However, they wouldn't be able to do the opposite. So it's really just a safety net. I doubt the footprint will remain at 3GB over the entire course of the console's lifespan. After all, PS3's OS footprint also dramatically reduced over time.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Sony may also increase their OS footprint as a safety net too, now that they've gone from 4GB to 8GB of memory. It doesn't necessarily mean that developers are going to get another 4GB to play with - the memory increase decision may have a basis beyond gaming.
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But I think they already did that by reserving 512MB. Let's be realistic here, I don't think PS4 OS will need more than 128-256MB for all its functionalities, considering that Vita, which has a lot of OS functionalities, reserves something around 90MB of the OS.
 
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