Support NeoGAF

[kitch9]

Bravo phisheep...

Bravo

I think we should go back to the days when unions can call strikes without a ballot and simply attack those who don't agree with sticks and stones...

Sounds awesome to me.

Flying picket anyone?

 

[cyberheater]

Can't say I was a fan of Thatcher and her anti union policies.

Still. RIP.

 

[kitch9]

and if they were scheduled to close the sensible thing to do would be to replace them with new coal stations (of which we had a 400 year supply left of) but instead they were replaced with gas power stations (and we are now running out of gas)

Replace subsidized power stations that run on subsidized fuel provided by a workforce that absolutely will not accept any of the needed modernization needed to become more cost effective and are more than happy to use the nations reliance on their product for their own personal gain with the same stations?

Not a chance, one thing the miners strikes proved is that having reliance on one power source is crazy as there is always someone willing to take advantage of that.

 

[frankie_baby]

I think we should go back to the days when unions can call strikes without a ballot and simply attack those who don't agree with sticks and stones...

Sounds awesome to me.

Flying picket anyone?

but is the situation now where workers have little to no rights any better, when it comes to anything the middle ground is almost always better she didnt need to take us from one extreme to the other

 

[daviyoung]

but is the situation now where workers have little to no rights any better, when it comes to anything the middle ground is almost always better she didnt need to take us from one extreme to the other

workers have a lot more rights now than they did in the 80s

 

[frankie_baby]

Replace subsidized power stations that run on subsidized fuel provided by a workforce that absolutely will not accept any of the needed modernization needed to become more cost effective and are more than happy to use the nations reliance on their product for their own personal gain with the same stations?

Not a chance, one thing the miners strikes proved is that having reliance on one power source is crazy as there is always someone willing to take advantage of that.

and now we've run out of gas and are reliant on russia, great

 

[Ding-Ding]

I think we should go back to the days when unions can call strikes without a ballot and simply attack those who don't agree with sticks and stones...

Sounds awesome to me.

Flying picket anyone?

Yeah as I want to pay the 90% tax rate, then get home, fighting my way through rubbish to get to my front door. Then sit down infront of the TV thats not working because the unions have cut of the power.

I'll just ignore granny lying dead in the corner... They may pick her up someday.

 

[Jimothy]

The class consciousness in this thread is so damn refreshing. It's a shame the lower classes in the U.S. didn't react this way when Reagan died.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

I'd lie if I said I held her in high regard, but someones passing is sad as it is. May she rest in peace.

 

[frankie_baby]

workers have a lot more rights now than they did in the 80s

overall basic rights maybe but thats thanks to europe there's still too many exemptions, my girlfriend's last job was at a 4 star hotel waitressing if she wanted the job it was hinted quite clearly if she wanted the job she'd have to sign a form waiving her rights to the working time directive (48 hour week limit) she signed it but said she was happy to work longer hours occasionally if really necessary but not all the time as she had a child, a month later she was let go in favour of new staff who didnt give a shit

 

[CHEEZMO™]

The class consciousness in this thread is so damn refreshing. It's a shame the lower classes in the U.S. didn't react this way when Reagan died.

 

[LukeTim]

The class consciousness in this thread is so damn refreshing. It's a shame the lower classes in the U.S. didn't react this way when Reagan died.

Isn't talk of a class system sort of taboo in the US?

As I understand it, a lot of you guys refuse to admit that it exists... despite the fact that if it exists anywhere in the world, it exists there.

 

[Psychoward]

State funeral?

There's a joke in here somewhere about privatisation, but I can't think of a good one.

 

[kitch9]

and now we've run out of gas and are reliant on russia, great

Fracking and potential earthquakes or going back to the constant worries of subsidence that mining created?

There is no way of getting the coal out of the ground without someone losing billions.

Fugedabowdit.

The second the coal in the ground becomes one of the cheapest alternatives it will get dug up.

For now it isn't, by a long shot.

 

[frankie_baby]

Yeah as I want to pay the 90% tax rate, then get home, fighting my way through rubbish to get to my front door. Then sit down infront of the TV thats not working because the unions have cut of the power.

I'll just ignore granny lying dead in the corner... They may pick her up someday.

what is never made clear is the problems of the 70s were against a back drop of global problems (the oil crisis for one) and massive inflation so can we really blame the unions for wanting job security and decent pay rises in such times

 

[frankie_baby]

Fracking and potential earthquakes or going back to the constant worries of subsidence that mining created?

There is no way of getting the coal out of the ground without someone losing billions.

Fugedabowdit.

The second the coal in the ground becomes one of the cheapest alternatives it will get dug up.

For now it isn't, by a long shot.

sometimes though the 'cheapest alternative' isnt the best, sustainabilty is key

 

[kitch9]

overall basic rights maybe but thats thanks to europe there's still too many exemptions, my girlfriend's last job was at a 4 star hotel waitressing if she wanted the job it was hinted quite clearly if she wanted the job she'd have to sign a form waiving her rights to the working time directive (48 hour week limit) she signed it but said she was happy to work longer hours occasionally if really necessary but not all the time as she had a child, a month later she was let go in favour of new staff who didnt give a shit

What's your point? Are you saying they should have given her a job on her terms?

 

[Ding-Ding]

and now we've run out of gas and are reliant on russia, great

We didn't run out of gas etc, its just that Labour did nothing during their stint in power but invest in bloody wind farms.

Which was surprising given they were warned that energy shortages would mean demand would outstrip supply by 2015

In just two years this government has had to invest heavily in nuclear (x2 stations), repair N.Sea platforms that went unserviced, further exploration into the atlantic as well as invest in shale gas exploration

 

[kitch9]

sometimes though the 'cheapest alternative' isnt the best, sustainabilty is key

UK coal isn't sustainable. It never really has been.

Mining also has a massive effect on the environment. Peoples houses literally fell to pieces around them, with insurers refusing cover on subsidence in mining areas.

 

[WARCOCK]

The class consciousness in this thread is so damn refreshing. It's a shame the lower classes in the U.S. didn't react this way when Reagan died.

yes.

 

[phisheep]

what is never made clear is the problems of the 70s were against a back drop of global problems (the oil crisis for one) and massive inflation so can we really blame the unions for wanting job security and decent pay rises in such times

No more than we can blame the politicians for trying to sort the problems out, no.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Surely the nail in the coffin of 80s retro too.

See ya queen bitch!

 

[Jensen]

and now we've run out of gas and are reliant on russia, great

Not disputing UK's gas reserves are depleting but most of our gas imports comes directly from Norway(around 50%) through a pipeline or LNG, I don't think Russia ships directly to the UK.

 

[phisheep]

UK coal isn't sustainable. It never really has been.

That's not really true. It was not only sustainable but massively profitable throughout the 19th century and (because of wars getting in the way) the first half of the 20th.

 

[frankie_baby]

We didn't run out of gas etc, its just that Labour did nothing during their stint in power but invest in bloody wind farms.

Which was surprising given they were warned that energy shortages would mean demand would outstrip supply by 2015

In justwo years this government has had to invest heavily in nuclear (x2 stations), repair N.Sea platforms that went unserviced, further exploration into the atlantic as well as invest in shale gas exploration

yes we did (pretty much) run out of gas, there is some left but its going fast, unless we want to start fracking but i dont fancy earthquakes and flamable tap water, yeah i'll agree labour did nowhere near enough to scure our energy supply but radical measures are needed far more radical than any government (labour or conservative) seem prepared to do

clean coal technologies
a tadal barrage on the river severn
thorium nuclear power

 

[Ding-Ding]

what is never made clear is the problems of the 70s were against a back drop of global problems (the oil crisis for one) and massive inflation so can we really blame the unions for wanting job security and decent pay rises in such times

Please tell me how the inflation was caused. Hint, it wasn't Thatcher

Also, the action of the unions in the 70's wasn't about job security & everything to do with wanting more money from a bankrupt government.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

The Winter of Discontent refers to the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led by James Callaghan against TUC opposition to control inflation, during the coldest winter for 16 years. The phrase "Winter of Discontent" is from the opening line of William Shakespeare's Richard III.

 

[kitch9]

That's not really true. It was not only sustainable but massively profitable throughout the 19th century and (because of wars getting in the way) the first half of the 20th.

I wasn't looking that far back, but point taken.

In the end union demands meant the miners were tunnelling miles to get to a coal seam a couple of foot thick whilst refusing the mechanisation that would have sped the job up exponentially as it would cost a relatively small percentage of the available jobs.

It was madness.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I’m neither happy nor sad that she died. People die. I am though somewhat appalled at the amount of vitriol that is flying around, especially that from people too young to remember the times and who have seemingly been indoctrinated into vituperative personal hatred. Even when Mrs Thatcher was in power the violent personal attacks on her were distasteful, unbalanced and – if anyone really wanted change – unhelpful.

She did a bunch of things right, and against massive opposition, and with conviction, dedication and courage. She did some things wrong, and some wrong things.

But it isn’t like there was much alternative most of the time. Not politically, as Labour offered no credible alternative to anything throughout her terms of office and the SDP/Liberals had nothing to offer but a vague vision (actually it was worse than that, they had about three vague visions, all different). And not, in the main, practical alternatives either. It’s all very well saying that some things should have been phased in or done more slowly or with more consultation but if that were the approach taken then they might not have happened at all.

Let’s remember where we were in 1979. The top marginal tax rate was 98%, inflation at 13%, unions stifling productivity all over the place and reaping benefits for their own members (the “Spanish practices” in Fleet Street were notorious, but there were plenty more around). Nationalised industries heavily subsidised and still grossly inefficient, it took 6 months to get a telephone line installed, pretty well zero meaningful investment in infrastructure, pay restraints that meant experienced workers earning less than new recruits … there’s pretty well an endless list of this sort of thing. And there was no space for additional taxation either, no room to manoeuvre. And in foreign affairs the world was a much more dangerous and unstable place than it is now.

Mrs T took a lot of that on and got results. Of course there were casualties. Some were temporary, some had long term effects. Doesn’t mean that there was an intentional driving force to create these casualties, not that she was herself evil or even uncompassionate. Pragmatic, sure, to perhaps an extreme degree. But one thing you knew when it came to the ballot box, you knew what you were voting for.

The personal hate is vicious and misplaced. The roots of the actions Mrs T took were decades earlier, in the decline of industries, in the malaise of kowtowing to unions (don’t get me wrong, the unions played a great role in British history but by 1979 their time was up, they had become parodies of themselves – much as Mrs T did later on with the Community Charge), in failing to address the continual strikes that not only made day-to-day life uncertain but starved industry of investment.

And yes, I lived through it all, and the two decades before and the two afterwards, and not in the southeast either. And the UK is a better place now than it was in 1979 and much of that is down to what Mrs T did.

I wish we had someone with her determination and vision and competence now - not necessarily with her policies, could be anywhere on the spectrum.

A love letter that ignores all the ills she created that still plague us today? That hardcore Conservative base with its altered perception of history is still strong I see.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Not that I disagreed with all she did, unions certainly needed to be kept in check, the longer term legacy of Thatcher and Reagan is finally showing its ugly head. It was their belief in neoliberal economic doctrine that has done the most damage.

Deregulated markets, record inequality and a definite move towards the Gilded Age. She and Reagan are more than just indirectly responsible for the last 3 Financial crises by any objective reasoning.

The parasite that she unleashed in the City of London is doing its best to screw people the world over.

'There is no society' and the glorification of greed. Her legacy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...on-financiers-for-reviving-city-fortunes.html

You're a city boy aren't you avaya, what's it been like down there today?

 

[kitch9]

yes we did (pretty much) run out of gas, there is some left but its going fast, unless we want to start fracking but i dont fancy earthquakes and flamable tap water, yeah i'll agree labour did nowhere near enough to scure our energy supply but radical measures are needed far more radical than any government (labour or conservative) seem prepared to do

clean coal technologies
a tadal barrage on the river severn
thorium nuclear power

You'd prefer subsidence, with hundreds of Sq miles of land that are a gamble to build houses on?

 

[frankie_baby]

Please tell me how the inflation was caused. Hint, it wasn't Thatcher

Also, the action of the unions in the 70's wasn't about job security & everything to do with wanting more money from a bankrupt government.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

when prices are skyrocketting (first from decimalization then the oil crisis) of course they wanted money, but then yes its a vicious cycle between wages and inflation but it doesn't make it any easier when prices go up as people may have noticed in the last few years

 

[elseanio]

Edit* removed, going off topic

 

[xbhaskarx]

More people on GAF are happy that Margaret Thatcher is dead than that Hugo Chavez is dead.

 

[Desmond]

As an Irishman, you can guess how people feel but nonetheless RIP.

 

[kitch9]

A love letter that ignores all the ills she created that still plague us today? That hardcore Conservative base with its altered perception of history is still strong I see.

So none of that happened?

 

[frankie_baby]

You'd prefer subsidence, with hundreds of Sq miles of land that are a gamble to build houses on?

all land is a gamble to build on but i'll take subsidence over earthquakes any day of the week and with decent surveys and building techniques its less risky

 

[LukeTim]

More people on GAF are happy that Margaret Thatcher is dead than that Hugo Chavez is dead.

Why would anyone be happy that Hugo Chavez is dead?

He was an alright guy, AFAIK.

 

[captainnapalm]

I hear a lot of talk about how terrible the unions were back then and how England needed saving from the working class, but little of the corporate fatcats and bankers and greedy politicians who, in the 80s, were really just getting warmed up, and would take their levels of corruption and looting to newer and even more epic levels in the years to come.

As a narrative, it seems kind of fishy. Let's not blame the elite, their coat buttons already bursting at the seams and their coffers swelling with cash, but the evil unions. It kind of angers me that these guys use their biased rags and gutless politicians to sell people this line and get away with murder. It's not our fault - it's poor people, the working class, foreigners, immigrants. It's a story told all over the world.

 

[besada]

More people on GAF are happy that Margaret Thatcher is dead than that Hugo Chavez is dead.

Are they? Can you give us an exact count?

 

[frankie_baby]

More people on GAF are happy that Margaret Thatcher is dead than that Hugo Chavez is dead.

thats surprising why?

 

[Ding-Ding]

when prices are skyrocketting (first from decimalization then the oil crisis) of course they wanted money, but then yes its a vicious cycle between wages and inflation but it doesn't make it any easier when prices go up as people may have noticed in the last few years

So you think a rise in todays energy prices are comparable to a country that has a 90% + tax rate in the 70's... And it still manages to go bankrupt

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So none of that happened?

What? No-one said it didn't. It's no better than an adorning love letter that focuses on the relative good she did and completely ignores the terrible and destructive things she did that are still damaging our society. It's such a skewed and warped view of her tenure to hold that it's hard to take anyone who holds such a view seriously.

 

[kitch9]

all land is a gamble to build on but i'll take subsidence over earthquakes any day of the week and with decent surveys and building techniques its less risky

No it isn't.

Subsidence is real and affected thousands. It let people with homes that were unsaleable and in a really bad place. This issue could affect anyone at any time.

Frackings issues are unproven.

 

[LukeTim]

I hear a lot of talk about how terrible the unions were back then and how England needed saving from the working class, but little of the corporate fatcats and bankers and greedy politicians who, in the 80s, were really just getting warmed up, and would take their levels of corruption and looting to newer and even more epic levels in the years to come.

As a narrative, it seems kind of fishy. Let's not blame the elite, their coat buttons already bursting at the seams and their coffers swelling with cash, but the evil unions. It kind of angers me that these guys use their biased rags and gutless politicians to sell people this line and get away with murder. It's not our fault - it's poor people, the working class, foreigners, immigrants. It's a story told all over the world.

This. So much. This.

 

[kitch9]

What? No-one said it didn't. It's no better than an adorning love letter that focusing on all the good she did and completely ignores the bad things she that are still damaging our society. It's such a skewed and warped view of her tenure to hold that it's hard to take anyone who golds such a view seriously.

He was providing balance in a mostly negative thread. What do you want him to do, wipe your ass or something?

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

So none of that happened?

Left wing nuts here find it hard to believe a hardcore socialist society as Britain was could be failing, which it was. In the short term her policies looked incredible, spurring economic growth at virtually no cost. In the long term the picture looks significantly murkier, but her experiment in neoliberalism brought Britain back and created important economic lessons for the rest of the world.

 

[Ding-Ding]

So none of that happened?

It happened, its just that their dad & grandad, the coal miners, neglected to tell them how much they loved the Soviet Union

 

[Pasco_]

I’m neither happy nor sad that she died. People die. I am though somewhat appalled at the amount of vitriol that is flying around, especially that from people too young to remember the times and who have seemingly been indoctrinated into vituperative personal hatred. Even when Mrs Thatcher was in power the violent personal attacks on her were distasteful, unbalanced and – if anyone really wanted change – unhelpful.

She did a bunch of things right, and against massive opposition, and with conviction, dedication and courage. She did some things wrong, and some wrong things.

But it isn’t like there was much alternative most of the time. Not politically, as Labour offered no credible alternative to anything throughout her terms of office and the SDP/Liberals had nothing to offer but a vague vision (actually it was worse than that, they had about three vague visions, all different). And not, in the main, practical alternatives either. It’s all very well saying that some things should have been phased in or done more slowly or with more consultation but if that were the approach taken then they might not have happened at all.

Let’s remember where we were in 1979. The top marginal tax rate was 98%, inflation at 13%, unions stifling productivity all over the place and reaping benefits for their own members (the “Spanish practices” in Fleet Street were notorious, but there were plenty more around). Nationalised industries heavily subsidised and still grossly inefficient, it took 6 months to get a telephone line installed, pretty well zero meaningful investment in infrastructure, pay restraints that meant experienced workers earning less than new recruits … there’s pretty well an endless list of this sort of thing. And there was no space for additional taxation either, no room to manoeuvre. And in foreign affairs the world was a much more dangerous and unstable place than it is now.

Mrs T took a lot of that on and got results. Of course there were casualties. Some were temporary, some had long term effects. Doesn’t mean that there was an intentional driving force to create these casualties, not that she was herself evil or even uncompassionate. Pragmatic, sure, to perhaps an extreme degree. But one thing you knew when it came to the ballot box, you knew what you were voting for.

The personal hate is vicious and misplaced. The roots of the actions Mrs T took were decades earlier, in the decline of industries, in the malaise of kowtowing to unions (don’t get me wrong, the unions played a great role in British history but by 1979 their time was up, they had become parodies of themselves – much as Mrs T did later on with the Community Charge), in failing to address the continual strikes that not only made day-to-day life uncertain but starved industry of investment.

And yes, I lived through it all, and the two decades before and the two afterwards, and not in the southeast either. And the UK is a better place now than it was in 1979 and much of that is down to what Mrs T did.

I wish we had someone with her determination and vision and competence now - not necessarily with her policies, could be anywhere on the spectrum.

Fuck you and your one-sided revisionist bullshit. Fuck her for the evil she did and has been done in her name.

Section 28.

Right to buy.

Supporting Apartheid.

Poll tax.

Support for Pinochet and Saddam.

Once again: Fuck you. Fuck her. Glad she's dead.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

I hear a lot of talk about how terrible the unions were back then and how England needed saving from the working class, but little of the corporate fatcats and bankers and greedy politicians who, in the 80s, were really just getting warmed up, and would take their levels of corruption and looting to newer and even more epic levels in the years to come.

As a narrative, it seems kind of fishy. Let's not blame the elite, their coat buttons already bursting at the seams and their coffers swelling with cash, but the evil unions. It kind of angers me that these guys use their biased rags and gutless politicians to sell people this line and get away with murder. It's not our fault - it's poor people, the working class, foreigners, immigrants. It's a story told all over the world.

The unions were ruinous because the crippled national productivity on a whim, which had terrible consequences within the UK.

The fact that Wall Street is screwing the world over doesn't excuse what the indulgences of unions have done throughout their history either. They have a reputation for a reason, it isn't all smoke and mirrors.

 

[frankie_baby]

So you think a rise in todays energy prices are comparable to a country that has a 90% + tax rate in the 70's... And it still manages to go bankrupt

while i cant get exact figures it looks like income tax was only at 83% and obviously that was just the higher rate, VAT was only at 10% (compared with 20 today) overall take take as a percentage of gdp was similar to how it is today