frankie_baby
Member
By selling off everything we owned for nowhere near what it was worth and also the 80s was when the north sea oil money was flooding in
Margaret Thatcher has died
- Thread starter Trick_GSF
- Start date
- Status
By selling off everything we owned for nowhere near what it was worth and also the 80s was when the north sea oil money was flooding in
The_Hitcher89
Member
While you've accepted that Liverpool fans were not the reason for the disaster, you appear to be blaming them at least partially for the level of it. Any responsiblity Liverpool fans had for the disaster is a question of logistics and natural response, rather than actions that should have words like 'blame' ascribed to them.
Messypandas
Member
kurtrussell
Banned
Great. Thanks for clearing up your false accusation.
Kinky John
Member
................................................................................putty.
The_Hitcher89
Member
But you do think that they were responsible for the disaster being as poorly handled, and causing as many deaths, as it did? If so, you were talking disproven nonsense regardless of your thoughts on the events that sparked the disaster.
frankie_baby
Member
But you still believe the fans didn't help, when in fact they were the ones on the ground helping the injured, breaking up hoardings to use as stretchers, getting people to safety
fizzelopeguss
Banned
i'd shit my pants in lolz if kurt turned out to be a manc.
Vivalaraza
Member
Because that is Margaret Thatcher's true legacy. From then until now, British politics has been shifted away from truly caring for the working classes.
frankie_baby
Member
No most of them were closed not mothballed, makes little difference as the ridiculously short sighted switch to gas fired power stations in the 80s and 90s means there was little market left for coal anyway, oh and to top it all off we are now running out of gas
Simply, they were losing money hand over fist in the 70's, while at the same time holding the rest of the country to ransom by endless strikes.
Hell, on the BBC news channel, one of her opponents during the strikes, even admitted it was a dying industry (while still splitting blood at her).
What I find really funny about all this, is how the same people who complain about the pit closure are the same people worried about things like global warming...
Go figure
Lazlo Woodbine
Member
Her policy of deregulation in the city was arguably more damaging long term then anything Regan did economically.
No, it's because even Labour knew it had to be done in the end. We had militant unions calling strikes without balloting their members, with no problems with using violence to get their point across and massively subsidized industry that was grinding to a holt slowly.
Every pit was offered to private companies and the vast majority were not seen as being able to get anywhere near profitable. Labour when coming back into power pretended they didn't exist and pressed for the renovation of the land so there was less chance of them becoming a thing for them.
Nope, I grew up in a pit village. The pits were offered to private companies to investigate viability over many years and very few got snapped up.
The steel shaft wheel in my village was there for years and years.
Labour just pretended that they didn't exist when they got in.
it's hip to hate thatcher (and reagan) now. then after realizing you don't know why you hate them, go and google them to find out, then post on the internet like it's a life long conviction and you have some sort of real reference.
truth is that the times under thatcher (and reagan) rule were the best of times
RIP to a great leader.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
We're all Thatcherites now.
CyclopsRock
Member
do you really associate "caring for the working classes" with "get in the mines"? Not only was (is) mining more or less a horrible, physically punishing job, it's also not profitable in the majority of places left in the UK (and certainly wasn't in the 80's when the Oil prices were coming back down). Anyone that really does care about the working classes would not make re-opening unprofitable mines their priority. You aren't doing the next generation of working class kids a favour by doing that.
Sportbilly
Member
Fortunately, we swapped coal and industry for financial services...
That's probably their concern for the well-being of others, in both cases I'd guess. There are better and worse ways to change things.
Vivalaraza
Member
I meant it more in a symbolic way, I should have made my point clearer.
It's true that the mines weren't doing much good for anybody. What I meant was that successive governments from either party have had their politics landscaped by what Thatcher did when she was in power.
frankie_baby
Member
Coal was replaced by gas while being slightly better is still burning green house gasses and so still contributing to global warming, if we'd stuck with coal it may have got us to think and put effort in much sooner to "clean coal" technologies we are only now finally coming round to such as cogeneration and carbon capture, we have some of the finest scientific minds and our record with inventors is probably unparalleled in the world but is held back by poor support from government, something which Maggie should have been far better with considering her background ( she invented MR WHIPPY for fucks sake)
She even cancelled our revolutionary plans for a space program, we could have lead the world if hotol had been given even a tiny amount of time and budget as its inventor is finally being proved right with every engine test on his follow up skylon project
frankie_baby
Member
Firstly to be viable to a private company something would have to be a lot more 'viable' than it would be to a government and secondly by the time labour came in so many coal stations had already been closed destroying the market for coal
Thatcher was proposing improvements to working conditions initially along with the job losses of 15%.
They should have took it... The unions weren't interested in the cheap coal coming from abroad they just wanted the fight. They didn't bother even taking it to a vote because they knew they'd lose so they just threatened violence instead.
Private companies tend to be more efficient than natio
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Probably already mentioned, but she implemented all of these policies, as divisive and damaging as they were, without ever winning a majority of the popular vote (the most she ever received was 43.9% in the 1979 general election). Every time I get frustrated about the deadlock in Congress and the ridiculous need for super-majorities to get anything passed now (thank you GOP!) and how nice it would be to have a parliamentary system, I think about Margaret Thatcher and I praise the wisdom of the Founding Fathers.
(Of course, canny politicians can govern as though they have a mandate (Bush/Cheney), particularly if they know that Congress is weak, so the protections built into the system only go so far.)
(Of course, canny politicians can govern as though they have a mandate (Bush/Cheney), particularly if they know that Congress is weak, so the protections built into the system only go so far.)
So in 5 years they destroyed all the coal stations?
That's not how it works, power stations are very expensive to build and they are designed to last a certain amount of time to be profitable, you don't just close them and build something else on a whim.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Just toss her down a disused mine shaft and fill it in with salt. Then flatten it down and build a rail line over it.
EvilDick34
Banned
Damn, some bitter folks up in this thread.
RIP THATCHER
RIP THATCHER
frankie_baby
Member
where are you getting 5 years from? when i was growing up there were 2 coal fired power stations near to where i lived, both of which closed in the early or mid nineties
Thats absolutely great but you are missing something. When Thatcher came to power, this country was officially bankrupt.
How would you feel today, in an age of austerity, that while your living standards were being squeezed, the government announced it was investing to find new "possible' technology into the burning of fossil fuels & also some space programme.
Please remember the shit state this country was in before Thatcher. During the winter of discontent, people couldn't even bury their dead..
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I’m neither happy nor sad that she died. People die. I am though somewhat appalled at the amount of vitriol that is flying around, especially that from people too young to remember the times and who have seemingly been indoctrinated into vituperative personal hatred. Even when Mrs Thatcher was in power the violent personal attacks on her were distasteful, unbalanced and – if anyone really wanted change – unhelpful.
She did a bunch of things right, and against massive opposition, and with conviction, dedication and courage. She did some things wrong, and some wrong things.
But it isn’t like there was much alternative most of the time. Not politically, as Labour offered no credible alternative to anything throughout her terms of office and the SDP/Liberals had nothing to offer but a vague vision (actually it was worse than that, they had about three vague visions, all different). And not, in the main, practical alternatives either. It’s all very well saying that some things should have been phased in or done more slowly or with more consultation but if that were the approach taken then they might not have happened at all.
Let’s remember where we were in 1979. The top marginal tax rate was 98%, inflation at 13%, unions stifling productivity all over the place and reaping benefits for their own members (the “Spanish practices” in Fleet Street were notorious, but there were plenty more around). Nationalised industries heavily subsidised and still grossly inefficient, it took 6 months to get a telephone line installed, pretty well zero meaningful investment in infrastructure, pay restraints that meant experienced workers earning less than new recruits … there’s pretty well an endless list of this sort of thing. And there was no space for additional taxation either, no room to manoeuvre. And in foreign affairs the world was a much more dangerous and unstable place than it is now.
Mrs T took a lot of that on and got results. Of course there were casualties. Some were temporary, some had long term effects. Doesn’t mean that there was an intentional driving force to create these casualties, not that she was herself evil or even uncompassionate. Pragmatic, sure, to perhaps an extreme degree. But one thing you knew when it came to the ballot box, you knew what you were voting for.
The personal hate is vicious and misplaced. The roots of the actions Mrs T took were decades earlier, in the decline of industries, in the malaise of kowtowing to unions (don’t get me wrong, the unions played a great role in British history but by 1979 their time was up, they had become parodies of themselves – much as Mrs T did later on with the Community Charge), in failing to address the continual strikes that not only made day-to-day life uncertain but starved industry of investment.
And yes, I lived through it all, and the two decades before and the two afterwards, and not in the southeast either. And the UK is a better place now than it was in 1979 and much of that is down to what Mrs T did.
I wish we had someone with her determination and vision and competence now - not necessarily with her policies, could be anywhere on the spectrum.
She did a bunch of things right, and against massive opposition, and with conviction, dedication and courage. She did some things wrong, and some wrong things.
But it isn’t like there was much alternative most of the time. Not politically, as Labour offered no credible alternative to anything throughout her terms of office and the SDP/Liberals had nothing to offer but a vague vision (actually it was worse than that, they had about three vague visions, all different). And not, in the main, practical alternatives either. It’s all very well saying that some things should have been phased in or done more slowly or with more consultation but if that were the approach taken then they might not have happened at all.
Let’s remember where we were in 1979. The top marginal tax rate was 98%, inflation at 13%, unions stifling productivity all over the place and reaping benefits for their own members (the “Spanish practices” in Fleet Street were notorious, but there were plenty more around). Nationalised industries heavily subsidised and still grossly inefficient, it took 6 months to get a telephone line installed, pretty well zero meaningful investment in infrastructure, pay restraints that meant experienced workers earning less than new recruits … there’s pretty well an endless list of this sort of thing. And there was no space for additional taxation either, no room to manoeuvre. And in foreign affairs the world was a much more dangerous and unstable place than it is now.
Mrs T took a lot of that on and got results. Of course there were casualties. Some were temporary, some had long term effects. Doesn’t mean that there was an intentional driving force to create these casualties, not that she was herself evil or even uncompassionate. Pragmatic, sure, to perhaps an extreme degree. But one thing you knew when it came to the ballot box, you knew what you were voting for.
The personal hate is vicious and misplaced. The roots of the actions Mrs T took were decades earlier, in the decline of industries, in the malaise of kowtowing to unions (don’t get me wrong, the unions played a great role in British history but by 1979 their time was up, they had become parodies of themselves – much as Mrs T did later on with the Community Charge), in failing to address the continual strikes that not only made day-to-day life uncertain but starved industry of investment.
And yes, I lived through it all, and the two decades before and the two afterwards, and not in the southeast either. And the UK is a better place now than it was in 1979 and much of that is down to what Mrs T did.
I wish we had someone with her determination and vision and competence now - not necessarily with her policies, could be anywhere on the spectrum.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
RIP, but i have no respect or sympathy for her. She was an awful women and even worse human being.
Devolution
Member
Shit I gotta watch that movie with Streep.
Little Old Man
Member
What any governments since then, and more importantly Thatchers failed to do was to a) run down the heavy industries/take on the unions holding the country to ransom in stages b) encourage growth of new industries in those areas. It was instead left to the markets to correct, except firms would have been crazy to operate there with the workforces of whole towns and cities focused on one or two particular skill sets, lack of infrastructure, etc. They instead focused on the south east and home counties, leaving so many places across the UK in a sorry state economically for decades to come (with many places still devoid of a strong local economy).
pitcairn55
Member
It's never been unhip to hate Thatcher, seriously. The notion that this is all bandwagon jumping is a nonsense.
I lived through the long, increasingly distressing years of her repugnant leadership, and the idea that they were the best of times is fucking ludicrous.
frankie_baby
Member
i'm not talking about things in 1979 i'm talking about the mid eighties when money was flowing in like crazy from north sea oil (which along with sell off receipts fron everything we previously owned was all that made her figures look good), the clean coal stuff would just have been a hypothetical at that time i'm just theorizing what could have happened but the space stuff is fact, it had an absolutely minimal budget but her government cancelled it and then preceeded to 'official secrets act' the patents meaning the inventor had to spend years reverse engineering his own patents
The amount of time between the end of the strikes the end of the bulk of the pit closures.
If power stations closed near you, then that was pretty much when they were scheduled to close 25-30 years prior to their closing.
Most of the coal fired stations had a working life design of around 25 years due to the construction of the cooling towers and degradation. They managed to stretch the life of one near me for 5 years or so with concrete repairs but that was it.
It all depends on what class you belonged to.
If you were a yuppy banker prick, it was awesome times... getting super rich, drinking champagne and snorting coke every night. All because of Thatchers deregulation of the financial service sector which ultimately led to all of this bullshit we've got now.
If you were middle class, you probably got a little better off... benefiting from the booming financial sector and all the debt they were handing out.
If you were poor... you might as well have dropped dead for all she and her government cared. "If you can't manage to make enough money on your own, you're a pathetic waste of space"... That's the Tories for you.
Bravo phisheep...
Bravo
This where people amaze me. That after a decade or two, with total mismanagment of the economy, that somehow they expect a new government to make everything hunky-dory in just a year or two.
It doesn't work like that... In the mid eighties they would have still been dealing with the previous debts. Not far removed from whats happening today
Bravo
This where people amaze me. That after a decade or two, with total mismanagment of the economy, that somehow they expect a new government to make everything hunky-dory in just a year or two.
It doesn't work like that... In the mid eighties they would have still been dealing with the previous debts. Not far removed from whats happening today
frankie_baby
Member
and if they were scheduled to close the sensible thing to do would be to replace them with new coal stations (of which we had a 400 year supply left of) but instead they were replaced with gas power stations (and we are now running out of gas)
- Status