Support NeoGAF

[leadbelly]

You'd be amazed at how prevalent of an idea "socialism means you want everyone to be poor and have nothing!" is.

Well, it is confusing the reality of communism with socialist ideals.

 

[Ding-Ding]

You'd be amazed at how prevalent of an idea "socialism means you want everyone to be poor and have nothing!" is.

No but you have to get round to the fact that Labour plays on the jealousies of others.

I mean how many times do you hear Labour say along the lines of "The Tories are putting the rich before the country, giving their friends a tax cut"

Funny though that you never hear them talk about another tax change which kicked in on the same day. The large rise in personal allowance which is better than Labours own 10p tax rate they introduced, then abolished.

What gobsmacks me most though is when Labour then accuses others of trying to divide a nation.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

No but you have to get round to the fact that Labour plays on the jealousies of others.

I mean how many times do you hear Labour say along the lines of "The Tories are putting the rich before the country, giving their friends a tax cut"

Funny though that you never hear them talk about another tax change which kicked in on the same day. The large rise in personal allowance which is better than Labours own 10p tax rate they introduced, then abolished.

What gobsmacks me most though is when Labour then accuses others of trying to divide a nation.

It's almost as if... Labour are Thatcherite neoliberals?! :O

Well stone the fucking crows. How has no one mentioned this before??

 

[War Peaceman]

No but you have to get round to the fact that Labour plays on the jealousies of others.

I mean how many times do you hear Labour say along the lines of "The Tories are putting the rich before the country, giving their friends a tax cut"

Funny though that you never hear them talk about another tax change which kicked in on the same day. The large rise in personal allowance which is better than Labours own 10p tax rate they introduced, then abolished.

What gobsmacks me most though is when Labour then accuses others of trying to divide a nation.

You are so ridiculously partisan, I cannot believe it.

 

[Ding-Ding]

It's almost as if... Labour are Thatcherite neoliberals?! :O

Well stone the fucking crows. How has no one mentioned this before??

Did Thatcher drag the centre to the right, yes. She didn't do it alone though.

The truth is that the old socialist model was dead after the shambles they made in the 70's. They made themselves and their policies completely unelectable.

Its something you can still see to this day as when any union goes on strike, the majority of the nation are not supportive. Even the Labour party are frightened to give support.

Oh, the other thing Labour dont tell you is that when the 50p rate was introduced, the amount of tax collected reduced. It was a failed tax rate!

You are so ridiculously partisan, I cannot believe it.

And your not I suppose?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

And your not I suppose?

Don't project your party tribalism plskthx

heh

 

[iapetus]

You'd be amazed at how prevalent of an idea "socialism means you want everyone to be poor and have nothing!" is.

It's up there with "capitalism means you want the poor to be as poor as possible and the rich to be as rich as possible!", certainly.

 

[Ding-Ding]

heh

My voting record.

1997 - Labour
2001 - Deliberately spoiled my vote
2005 - Deliberately spoiled my vote
2010 - Conservative

 

[iapetus]

Did Thatcher drag the centre to the right, yes. She didn't do it alone though.

Hell no. It was a perfect storm, with the left pushing the centre as hard as they could and the right pulling it as hard as they could. We'll probably never see its like again. If either side had been more restrained, maybe things would be different, but Thatcher was set on her agenda and Labour seemed to be working as hard as they could to make themselves unelectable.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Hell no. It was a perfect storm, with the left pushing the centre as hard as they could and the right pulling it as hard as they could. We'll probably never see its like again. If either side had been more restrained, maybe things would be different, but Thatcher was set on her agenda and Labour seemed to be working as hard as they could to make themselves unelectable.

Thing is why did Labour start pushing the centre in the late 80's. The damage done by Labour's connection to the unions was still a chain round their neck that they couldn't shake off.

They tried everything possible to push the centre like adopting Thatchers "right to buy" policy. It didn't work though as alot of people still recognised the link between the Labour leadership and the trade unions.

The transformation into New Labour could only be achieved once a new breed of Labour politicians emerged to Leadership positions, without the baggage of the unions left from the 70's

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think it's an exaggeration to say that any politician can move the centre ground. It is electorates and the collective will of a population that do it, politicians just reflect that. If Thatcher's success was due solely to a divided left, Major wouldn't have won in 92 and it wouldn't have taken a fairly right-wing Blair to win in 1997. The fact that the centre ground shifted suggests, to me, that it was about much more than a fractured left wing.

 

[War Peaceman]

And your not I suppose?

Well, I do try not to be. I don't make every counterpoint as "but labour was worse" or such sort. I regard - and I think I have made the comment here before - John Major as someone I'd vote for over all the current candidates and the Prime Ministers going back to at least Thatcher. I loathe Blair more than I do Thatcher... The problem is that none of the parties are that different. I don't say that in a nihilistic or apathetic sense - just in a factual sense. Labour largely continued the Major government's work, which was a toned down form of Thatcher's. They did some good things - LGBT rights (the best in our history) and Minimum Wage but they - Blair particularly - were largely charlatans.

I think it's an exaggeration to say that any politician can move the centre ground. It is electorates and the collective will of a population that do it, politicians just reflect that. If Thatcher's success was due solely to a divided left, Major wouldn't have won in 92 and it wouldn't have taken a fairly right-wing Blair to win in 1997. The fact that the centre ground shifted suggests, to me, that it was about much more than a fractured left wing.

Agreed, not to mention Labour (prior to Thatcher) were already edging towards what she achieved. They tried to curb Union power (failed), were shifting towards monetarism and had begun to privatise. I don't think that they could or would have done the same as her, but this was the general direction of the political engine.

 

[PJV3]

I think it's an exaggeration to say that any politician can move the centre ground. It is electorates and the collective will of a population that do it, politicians just reflect that. If Thatcher's success was due solely to a divided left, Major wouldn't have won in 92 and it wouldn't have taken a fairly right-wing Blair to win in 1997. The fact that the centre ground shifted suggests, to me, that it was about much more than a fractured left wing.

I dont know how true it is, but it's said that Labour supporters dont vote as much as conservatives, labour areas also tend to have low voter registration compared against the average.

Then you add on the fact that Governments lose elections, better the devil you know, Kinnock had plenty of vitriolic headlines to overcome.

The country's voters definitely moved rightwards though.

 

[Ding-Ding]

I think it's an exaggeration to say that any politician can move the centre ground. It is electorates and the collective will of a population that do it, politicians just reflect that. If Thatcher's success was due solely to a divided left, Major wouldn't have won in 92 and it wouldn't have taken a fairly right-wing Blair to win in 1997. The fact that the centre ground shifted suggests, to me, that it was about much more than a fractured left wing.

Sometimes its politicians, sometimes its just events. Chances are Thatcher probably wouldn't have been able to shift the centre if it wasn't for the Falklands.

I suppose some would argue that she only put the centre back close to where it should have been. The Conservatives before Thatcher supposedly had more in common with Labour than they did with Thatcher's Conservatives. I wouldn't know myself as I wasn't born to witness the lurch to the left in the 60's

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I dont know how true it is, but it's said that Labour supporters dont vote as much as conservatives, labour areas also tend to have low voter registration compared against the average.

This is definitely A Thing. Look at Democrat voter turnout in the US.

 

[Ding-Ding]

This is definitely A Thing. Look at Democrat voter turnout in the US.

Its difficult to judge in this country as the individual constituencies are skewed. Its well know that Labour easily benefit the most, while the Lib Dems suffer due to more spread out voters.

As it stands today. Labour only need a 2 to 3 point lead in the polls to get a majority. Conservatives need close to 10

 

[PJV3]

Its difficult to judge in this country as the individual constituencies are skewed. Its well know that Labour easily benefit the most, while the Lib Dems suffer due to more spread out voters.

As it stands today. Labour only need a 2 to 3 point lead in the polls to get a majority. Conservatives need close to 10

Which is why labour weren't happy with equalising constituencies based on registered voters, ignoring population size.

The whole system is shite.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

By standard UK measures, child poverty (the first poverty figures I have access to) went from 1.9m (14%) to 3.9m (31%). But hey, Thatcher was great for the poor, and not agreeing with that is a sign of everything that's bad with the left.

What a massive jump in poverty. She was a horrible PM.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Which is why labour weren't happy with equalising constituencies based on registered voters, ignoring population size.

The whole system is shite.

It certainly is shite. When they went for an alternative vote though, it was a stupid proposal. To think my 2nd preference could be worth more than my 1st was fucking nuts.

Then again, my current vote is worth alot less due to living in a constituency of about 80k people, compared to Labours smaller constituencies of 45k.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

No but you have to get round to the fact that Labour plays on the jealousies of others.

I mean how many times do you hear Labour say along the lines of "The Tories are putting the rich before the country, giving their friends a tax cut"

Funny though that you never hear them talk about another tax change which kicked in on the same day. The large rise in personal allowance which is better than Labours own 10p tax rate they introduced, then abolished.

What gobsmacks me most though is when Labour then accuses others of trying to divide a nation.

WTF is this? Do you really believe that?

 

[PJV3]

WTF is this? Do you really believe that?

Counting what the rich have is Envy, counting what the poor have is fair.

It's a fucked up world.

 

[Ding-Ding]

WTF is this? Do you really believe that?

Have you heard Labour talk as often about the rise in personal allowance?

Conservatives and Lib Dems talk about both of the tax changes. Labour only mentions the one... Why?

Counting what the rich have is Envy, counting what the poor have is fair.

It's a fucked up world.

Are you saying envy doesn't exist?.

Someone always wants what someone else has. Its just a way of life

 

[PJV3]

Have you heard Labour talk as often about the rise in personal allowance?

Conservatives and Lib Dems talk about both of the tax changes. Labour only mentions the one... Why?



Are you saying envy doesn't exist?.

Someone always wants what someone else has. Its just a way of life

I'm using two conservative party phrases.
Make of it what you will.

 

[Delusibeta]

American, so I can't offer much insight. But I do feel compelled to share. This is one of the most brilliant insights I've ever heard. Perfectly illustrates one of the worst problems with the left.

*Daily Mail garbage*

Mate, I know you're a Republican, so here's a tip: don't enter political threads about stuff outside of the US otherwise you'll be mocked for being a right-wing extremist.

 

[Ding-Ding]

I'm using two conservative party phrases.
Make of it what you will.

You can say the same though about nearly every political party.

Labour do use the emotion of jealously while the Conservatives play on peoples fears.

Very rarely does any party focus on facts, as it tends to bore the voters.

 

[Duffyside]

Mate, I know you're a Republican, so here's a tip: don't enter political threads about stuff outside of the US otherwise you'll be mocked for being a right-wing extremist.

1) Not a Republican. Though I understand why you're confused, considering GAF's (mostly) left-wing extremism.

2) Oh no, not mocking!

 

[Bo-Locks]

The BBC has defended its decision not to play in full on Radio 1's Official Chart Show a song at the centre of an anti-Baroness Thatcher campaign.

A five second clip of Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead will be played in a news item on Sunday's show.

BBC Radio 1 controller Ben Cooper said the move over the Wizard of Oz film track had been a difficult compromise.

He said he had to balance respect for someone who had just died with issues around freedom of speech.

Sales of the song, from the 1939 musical starring Judy Garland, have soared since former Prime Minister Lady Thatcher's death on Monday, aged 87.

'Grieving family'
Speaking to BBC News, Mr Cooper said: "You have a track which I believe is disrespectful. It is not a political track, it is a personal attack on an individual who has just died.

"But on the other hand, if I ban the track then you have arguments about censorship and freedom of speech.

"I also took into account the very difficult scenario of the fact there's a grieving family involved here who have yet to bury a loved one.

"So those sort of elements were in my thinking to come up with this decision that I would play not the track in full, but a clip of the track within a journalistic environment."

The single is set to take the number three spot in Sunday's countdown, according to the Official Charts Company.

And the corporation released a statement, saying: "The BBC finds this campaign distasteful, but does not believe the record should be banned.

"On Sunday, the Radio 1 Chart Show will contain a news item explaining why the song is in the charts, during which a short clip will be played, as it has been in some of our news programmes."

BBC director general Tony Hall said: "I understand the concerns about this campaign. I personally believe it is distasteful and inappropriate.

"However, I do believe it would be wrong to ban the song outright as free speech is an important principle and a ban would only give it more publicity."

The original song was performed in the Wizard of Oz by characters celebrating the demise of the much-hated Wicked Witch of the East.

Rival campaigns are under way to get a song considered to be more favourable to Lady Thatcher into this week's countdown as well.

Capital FM, which has its own chart show, said the station was currently "reviewing the situation".

'Political hijack'
The Conservative chairman of the Commons culture, media and sport select committee, John Whittingdale, said the BBC's decision was a sensible compromise.

"I don't think it would have been right to have allowed the Chart Show to have been hijacked for political purposes and had they played the whole song, that would have been the consequence," he said.

"But on the other hand, they couldn't have just ignored the fact that it does feature amongst the most downloaded singles of the week."

However, the Conservative MP for Reading East, Rob Wilson, said the track should be played in its entirety.

He said: "I think that Margaret Thatcher would be horrified having helped free millions of people in eastern Europe and been the symbol of freedom around the world that she could in any way have censorship in her own country.

"The BBC has had a very difficult decision and it's come up with a very British old-fashioned fudge."

The BBC are such cowards. Instead of playing a legitimate 50-second song in the top 40 to a youthful audience on Radio 1; that wouldn't give a shit in any case, they have decided to play a 5 second clip, explain the political nature of the song, convince themselves that they aren't banning it; or at the very least, needlessly compromising and bending freedom of speech and impartiality; all to appease the tastes of an extreme minority that won't even be listening to the fucking show anyway. Ironically, and predictably, by needlessly compromising themselves and making such a big issue out of something so petty, insignificant and clear cut (if it's in the charts then play it) they instead draw even more attention to it and open the door to legitimate concerns surrounding censorship and curtailing freedom of speech. Well done, BBC.

For full disclosure I sit on the fence when it comes to viewing Thatcher's policies and legacy and I have no interest in the charts, the celebratory parties etc. I just find the BBC's response to be so cowardly and pointless that I rant about it here.

I have found the entire country's reaction to her death to be very strange. I don't dispute that, for better or worse, she was the most significant peacetime PM, but I think that such a grandiose and expensive state funeral in all but name is way too OTT. The 20-somethings celebrating her death, this latest BBC stunt after trying the hardest for 24 hours to appear impartial out of respect, before laying into her... Very strange.

 

[Ding-Ding]

While I find it distasteful, the BBC should have broadcast it. I know where the off switch is if I dont want to listen to it.

If Auntie finds it in bad taste, the DJ can always use freespeech as well... "In at number 4, a song to reming us how many mindless moron's live in the UK"

Also, just a follow up on Glenda Jackson rant at the tribute session. A blog was found at the Telegraph printed the morning of the tribute.

It has a very funny twist...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/
A taster...

Actually, it’s not bitterness, it’s childishness. The current grandstanding from the Labour movement isn’t actually motivated by political anger, but a fit of political jealousy..

So what makes this a funny article you may ask. It was written by Dan Hodges, Glenda Jackson's son.

opps.

 

[PJV3]

Glenda Jackson stuck to political issues, the closest she got to something insulting was that Thatcher didn't represent women. And the speaker of the house agreed.

And why would the left give a toss what the "Blairite cuckoo in the nest" says anyhow. These aren't personal attacks, the people knew her as the PM not as an acquaintance, and that is the memory they are attacking.

 

[War Peaceman]

While I find it distasteful, the BBC should have broadcast it. I know where the off switch is if I dont want to listen to it.

If Auntie finds it in bad taste, the DJ can always use freespeech as well... "In at number 4, a song to reming us how many mindless moron's live in the UK"

Also, just a follow up on Glenda Jackson rant at the tribute session. A blog was found at the Telegraph printed the morning of the tribute.

It has a very funny twist...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/
A taster...


So what makes this a funny article you may ask. It was written by Dan Hodges, Glenda Jackson's son.

opps.

I don't see that as funny? They can have different opinions? Also, Dan Hodges is an awful columnist, which I guess is fitting for a Blairite. I say that as a fan of Peter Oborne, in spite of frequently disagreeing with him.

Also, Margaret Thatcher was no friend of free speech. She regularly limited it and abused it, which while it did give us some great comedy was abhorrent. I don't mean to necessarily discredit her other actions but there is no plausible way that she was about freedom in that manner.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Glenda Jackson stuck to political issues, the closest she got to something insulting was that Thatcher didn't represent women. And the speaker of the house agreed.

She did indeed and the Tory MP who complained was wrong. Berclow had no option other than to put him down

However, apparently there is an unwritten rule in regards to "tribute" sessions, which she did break. Which from what I heard will not make her popular with any party

It was a smear job Glenda did and considering her track record, it was done for effect because of the stage that was set. Always the actress huh.

Still, funny that she was embarrassed by her own son.

 

[PJV3]

She did indeed and the Tory MP who complained was wrong. Berclow had no option other than to put him down

However, apparently there is an unwritten rule in regards to "tribute" sessions, which she did break. Which from what I heard will not make her popular with any party

It was a smear job Glenda did and considering her track record, it was done for effect because of the stage that was set. Always the actress huh.

Still, funny that she was embarrassed by her own son.

Why does it bother you, She's getting a virtual state funeral at the taxpayers expense, the queen is attending and she's getting loads of positive media coverage.

It's a bloody democracy, a few unhappy MPs and a dodgy song in the charts is small beer.

 

[War Peaceman]

She did indeed and the Tory MP who complained was wrong. Berclow had no option other than to put him down

However, apparently there is an unwritten rule in regards to "tribute" sessions, which she did break. Which from what I heard will not make her popular with any party

It was a smear job Glenda did and considering her track record, it was done for effect because of the stage that was set. Always the actress huh.

Still, funny that she was embarrassed by her own son.

Do you really think anybody gives a shit? At least she said what she believed in a respectful way; people are more used to sycophancy and lies from politicians (I'm talking in general here, not vis a vis Thatcher). A good portion of the country loathes her - why should their views not be represented by elected representatives?

Smear job? Really?!

 

[Ding-Ding]

I don't see that as funny? They can have different opinions? Also, Dan Hodges is an awful columnist, which I guess is fitting for a Blairite. I say that as a fan of Peter Oborne, in spite of frequently disagreeing with him.

Also, Margaret Thatcher was no friend of free speech. She regularly limited it and abused it, which while it did give us some great comedy was abhorrent. I don't mean to necessarily discredit her other actions but there is no plausible way that she was about freedom in that manner.

Should she have censured Adams, no but they have history. The IRA killed two really good friends of hers and came within a room of killing her (and put Tebbits wife in a wheelchair).

Thatcher finding out about the killing of her friend Airey Neave.
http://youtu.be/IAgMR_gC9IY

As someone who comes from Brighton, I was living less than a mile away from the Grand Hotel. I remember the carnage the next day

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I think we already have a separate thread for the Radio 1 thing, but since its being discussed in here, I can't believe the BBC are even considering not playing the song.

Trying to brand it as a "campaign", or "hijacking", is pretty cute. Maybe it's just reflective of the strength of feeling around the country? I didn't buy the record (or, as some people on facebook are trying to get me, "I love Margaret Thatcher"), but just do things as normal for God's sake. That article quoted by Bo-locks says that the BBC is in a tough position, but that's not true! Do things as normal, that's not making any kind of commentary. As soon as you change your policy, it's clear that you've made a political decision.

Oh, and from the same quote "I think that Margaret Thatcher would be horrified having helped free millions of people in eastern Europe and been the symbol of freedom around the world that she could in any way have censorship in her own country". Yeah, I'm sure Thatcher would be horrified at censorship in her own country...

 

[PJV3]

Unwritten rule, lol.

There's an assumption that this kind of funeral goes to a parliamentary vote, avoiding it by using the army to pull the carriage instead of the navy is creative to say the least.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I don't get why people are upset at the market deciding what charts and what doesnt.



Also the Beeb don't seem to get that the only way to stop a political point being made is to just, y'know, simply play the fucking thing like normal.

 

[War Peaceman]

Should she have censured Adams, no but you have to remed the history. The IRA killed two really good friends of hers and came within a room of killing her (and put Tebbits wife in a wheelchair).

Thatcher finding out about the killing of her friend Airey Neave.
http://youtu.be/IAgMR_gC9IY

As someone who comes from Brighton, I was living less than a mile away from the Grand Hotel. I remember the carnage the next day.

I know the context, I can understand the motivations behind it. I oppose the idea of her being a proponent of freedom of speech (as some politicians have claimed). She limited speech on her opponents and supported numerous, vile dictatorships. She was an authoritarian in practice - it helped things done - but let's not misremember her.

 

[PJV3]

I don't get why people are upset at the market deciding what charts and what doesnt.



Also the Beeb don't seem to get that the only way to stop a political point being made is to just, y'know, simply play the fucking thing like normal.

This country is fucking nuts, having to put a news report around 5 seconds of a song from the Wizard of Oz, Jesus.

The Greek government must be jealous as fuck. Oh no! the people are buying Money by Pink Floyd on amazon.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Unwritten rule, lol.

There's an assumption that this kind of funeral goes to a parliamentary vote, avoiding it by using the army to pull the carriage instead of the navy is creative to say the least.

Political parties always use other means to get round votes or manifesto pledges.

Or have you forgotten Labours "We will give a referendum on the European Constitution" bullshit

 

[War Peaceman]

Political parties always use other means to get round votes or manifesto pledges.

Or have you forgotten Labours "We will give a referendum on the European Constitution" bullshit

"B-b-b-but Labour"

Ding-Ding, 2013.

 

[PJV3]

"B-b-b-but Labour"

Ding-Ding, 2013.

I think he's mucking about or something, Or its reverse psychology, and he's actually a marxist.

 

[Sage00]

Political parties always use other means to get round votes or manifesto pledges.

Or have you forgotten Labours "We will give a referendum on the European Constitution" bullshit

'They're all just as bad as each other!'

You might as well give in when you dust off this argument.

 

[rodvik]

The petty minded reaction by some of my fellow lefties to her death serves as a timely reminder that not all the batshit crazies are right wingers.

How did she manage to win so many elections? Blessed by having even worse scumbags than her party as opponents at home and abroad.

 

[PJV3]

'They're all just as bad as each other!'

You might as well give in when you dust off this argument.

There's not many people defending Labour anyway, most labour voters here are very reluctant about it.

 

[Ding-Ding]

The petty minded reaction by some of my fellow lefties to her death serves as a timely reminder that not all the batshit crazies are right wingers.

How did she manage to win so many elections? Blessed by having even worse scumbags than her party as opponents at home and abroad.

She won 83 because of the Falklands and the others were the breaking of the Unions, the big bang and right to buy.

You also had the left tearing itself apart

 

[rodvik]

She won 83 because of the Falklands and the others were the breaking of the Unions, the big bang and right to buy.

You also had the left tearing itself apart

Indeed. Winter of discontent.

She did a lot of what needed doing. She also did some things which were unnecessarily hurtful.

This dancing on her grave is below feeble though and comes from the usual suspects who frankly just appear bitter because she beat them when alive. She only got kicked out from power because conservatives decided they wanted a change. The grave dancers had nothing to do with it.

 

[Jackpot]

It was a smear job Glenda did and considering her track record, it was done for effect because of the stage that was set. Always the actress huh.

Still, funny that she was embarrassed by her own son.

In what way was it a "smear job"? Does it really irk you that much that people have legitimate criticisms of her?

 

[Ding-Ding]

Indeed. Winter of discontent.

She did a lot of what needed doing. She also did some things which were unnecessarily hurtful.

This dancing on her grave is below feeble though and comes from the usual suspects who frankly just appear bitter because she beat them when alive. She only got kicked out from power because conservatives decided they wanted a change. The grave dancers had nothing to do with it.

I would agree with nearly everything you said except it was more than just a change. In her last term of power she started to ignore the advice of her own cabinet. When she lost the likes of Lawson & Howe's support, it was pretty much over. Especially as public support was already disappearing because the the poll tax

 

[Ding-Ding]

In what way was it a "smear job"? Does it really irk you that much that people have legitimate criticisms of her?

Oh come on. Attack Thatcher's 'womanliness' Please, it was Jackson's last ditch at TV before she goes out to pasture