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Margaret Thatcher has died

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Exactly my point. You didn't say anything. You singled me out. Hence why I'm saying you're applying a double standard.

Tough. It's a forum and I don't have to respond to every single post in the thread, your post simply caught my eye and I responded to it.

By not saying that the quote doesn't represent the right does not mean I agree with that statement which you seem to want to apply to me. Do you associate me with the people who love or hate Thatcher earlier in the thread because I didn't critique their posts too?
 
Again, you, like others in this thread, are saying that this guy represents the right. If saying that the rioting in Brixton represents the left is absurd, then it follows that this comment representing the right is equally absurd.

Who were the rioters?
 
Tough. It's a forum and I don't have to respond to every single post in the thread, your post simply caught my eye and I responded to it.

By not saying that the quote doesn't represent the right does not mean I agree with that statement which you seem to want to apply to me. Do you associate me with the people who love or hate Thatcher earlier in the thread because I didn't critique their posts too?

Nope. I was merely asking why you singled me out, to which you've responded here. I was merely railing against the idea that Moore's comments being representative of the right. I don't actually believe that the Brixton rioters/protesters represent anything more than a troubled minority, but I still think their actions, and while they do reflect poorly, just like Moore's comments, are still in no way representative.
 
The woman who started it wanted to show everybody watching around the world that the country was NOT united in grief, as the Tories like to project. She said that the Thatcher's were perfectly entitled to stage an intimate funeral of an appropriate size for a former PM, but since they chose instead to stage such a grand and expensive funeral for such a divisive figure, a silent protest is fair game.

Again, you, like others in this thread, are saying that this guy represents the right. If saying that the rioting in Brixton represents the left is absurd, then it follows that this comment representing the right is equally absurd.

Yes, I will argue that a former DT editor does represent, at the very least, a significant chunk of the Conservative party. I wouldn't say that he represents the right.

The very small scale rioting in Brixton does not represent the left to me. They represent a significant chunk of young people in the poorest areas of the country who are still living with the effects of Thatcher's policies, have few prospects and nothing else better to do. See the England riots in 2011.

You would have a better time arguing that the parties being held in the North of the country, particularly in former mining areas; the less important areas, lest we forget, represent the unions and the Labour party.
 
Yes, I will argue that a former DT editor does represent, at the very least, a significant chunk of the Conservative party. I wouldn't say that he represents the right.

The very small scale rioting in Brixton does not represent the left to me. They represent a significant chunk of young people in the poorest areas of the country who are still living with the effects of Thatcher's policies, have few prospects and nothing else better to do. See the England riots in 2011.

You would have a better time arguing that the parties being held in the North of the country, particularly in former mining areas; the less important areas, lest we forget, represent the unions and the Labour party.

I'd argue that it was probably more due to the huge influx of unskilled labour from Eastern Europe being prepared to do jobs for a lesser wage that's negatively impacting on the ability of poor young people to gain meaningful employment.
 
There are a few great posts in this thread that I'd love to give a fuller answer to but I just don't have the time. I'll say this, though: Firstly, changes to the economy are no just about one set of stats versus another - there is also trajectory to consider. The 70s were not an end point that she altered. They were always going to come after the 60s and before the 80s. What would the 80s have been like without Thatcher, though, given what we know about the trajectory that the 70s took? And secondly, anyone that thinks that the Telcos industry we have now would benefit from nationalising has, I think, been at the Calpol before bed. And not in the good way.
 
I'd argue that it was probably more due to the huge influx of unskilled labour from Eastern Europe being prepared to do jobs for a lesser wage that's negatively impacting on the ability of poor young people to gain meaningful employment.

I don't disagree with that, and that is down to our relationship with the EU and New Labour's immigration policy. That is one of the fallacies of the left, that they continue to promote the mass immigration of low skilled and trade based workers, all while pretending that it has no effect on the indigenous working class.

I already said that Labour and the Lib Dems aren't much better than the Tories when it comes to actually caring about the working class and decreasing inequality. In a way, that is Thatcher's legacy. Governments are no longer interested in redistributing wealth since it is now all tied up with the ruling/elite class.

But the reason why the poor are poor goes much, much deeper than that, and Thatcher certainly has a major role to play, too.hatcher certainly has a major role to play, too.

And secondly, anyone that thinks that the Telcos industry we have now would benefit from nationalising has, I think, been at the Calpol before bed. And not in the good way.

Very few people would argue against that. Even Avaya singled out the telcos and airlines in his post as being the only industries that benefited from privatisation.
 
There are a few great posts in this thread that I'd love to give a fuller answer to but I just don't have the time. I'll say this, though: Firstly, changes to the economy are no just about one set of stats versus another - there is also trajectory to consider. The 70s were not an end point that she altered. They were always going to come after the 60s and before the 80s. What would the 80s have been like without Thatcher, though, given what we know about the trajectory that the 70s took? And secondly, anyone that thinks that the Telcos industry we have now would benefit from nationalising has, I think, been at the Calpol before bed. And not in the good way.

BT is interesting because it was her refusal to spend the money on BT investment which launched the privatisation programme.

The industry wouldn't be the same either way, her way has led to more choice etc, but the state investment would have changed BT a lot.
personally I don't really care that I have a choice of 1000s of phones made in the far east, but I recognise a lot/most people do.

I haven't got a clue how Mobile phones would have worked under a nationalised BT, perhaps it would have been left to private buisness to sort out anyway.
 
Very few people would argue against that. Even Avaya singled out the telcos and airlines in his post as being the only industries that benefited from privatisation.

Oops, I must have misread his post then! Thank for the heads up.

PVJ3 said:
BT is interesting because it was her refusal to spend the money on BT investment which launched the privatisation programme.

The industry wouldn't be the same either way, her way has led to more choice etc, but the state investment would have changed BT a lot.
personally I don't really care that I have a choice of 1000s of phones made in the far east, but I recognise a lot/most people do.

I haven't got a clue how Mobile phones would have worked under a nationalised BT, perhaps it would have been left to private buisness to sort out anyway.

But the problems with BT began way before Thatcher was in power. Phisheep, amongst others, have described the situation whereby it would take 6 months to get a new phone line installed. I think the idea of "choice" goes far beyond choosing from a billion Android phones and one or two iPhones - it's the very thing that generates competition, which in turn is the thing that makes the most difference in terms of companies trying to attract customers by doing better at the things they - the customers - want. The situation described by many of the state of BT in the 70's does not sound like the sort of system that I'd want controlling the UK's internet infrastructure. The internet is too important to have restricted like that, but in a way it's even less important now than phones were back then. Back then, Phones were the only immediate means of communication, and you couldn't even get a business bank account (let alone a loan) if you did not have a business phone number. All that could be delayed, just because BT would take 6 months to install your line.

I struggle to think of any scenario whereby we would now have not only the choice of phones, but the quality of service received (in all areas of telcos - mainlines, mobiles, internet, mobile internet etc) under a nationalised system.
 
There are a few great posts in this thread that I'd love to give a fuller answer to but I just don't have the time. I'll say this, though: Firstly, changes to the economy are no just about one set of stats versus another - there is also trajectory to consider. The 70s were not an end point that she altered. They were always going to come after the 60s and before the 80s. What would the 80s have been like without Thatcher, though, given what we know about the trajectory that the 70s took? And secondly, anyone that thinks that the Telcos industry we have now would benefit from nationalising has, I think, been at the Calpol before bed. And not in the good way.

The narrative that she 'saved' us from some fiscal Armageddon, like your trajectory theorem, assumes absolutely NOTHING changes and the alternate-powers-that-be would have simply let us career, moribund, off of a fiscal cliff.

Hypotheticals are largely useless, but by and large I believe that we are all forced to react to events. Just as a Labour government would have had to embark upon an austerity programme given a victory in 2010, a Labour or SDP-Liberal government would have no doubt had to 'deal' with the unions and the other problems subsequent to 1980.

Its likewise with things like BT... the oft brought up "6 months to install a telephone line" assumes that BT would NEVER have gotten quicker or better at installing telephone lines. Is that really realistic?

I personally have no problem with nationalisation of the telcos. I think any industry which is by nature, a potentially disrupted and technologically competitive industry, SHOULD be open to the market. Areas in which I don't think it has been successful are all industries in which it was obvious an oligopoly would take hold. Only so many companies can afford energy exploration and R&D, only so many companies can operate our rail networks (because we only have so much rail network to give!)... Customers RELY on the services those industries provide, they should never have been allowed to cabal control away from us. The selling of some sovereign assets has facilitated that. It is the concentration of market power into fewer and fewer hands that is toxic IMO; privatisation should be evaluated not only on what short term gains we can reap, but what the long term consequences will be for that market in Britain. Capitalism encourages consolidation, it is the most effective way to grow and shut out others, but its one of the things we need be most wary of in anything we deem essential.
 
The narrative that she 'saved' us from some fiscal Armageddon, like your trajectory theorem, assumes absolutely NOTHING changes and the alternate-powers-that-be would have simply let us career, moribund, off of a fiscal cliff.

Hypotheticals are largely useless, but by and large I believe that we are all forced to react to events. Just as a Labour government would have had to embark upon an austerity programme given a victory in 2010, a Labour or SDP-Liberal government would have no doubt had to 'deal' with the unions and the other problems subsequent to 1980.

This is all completely true, but the point I was making was that it's easy to compare the data for the 70's vs the 80's and suggest that "x" happened, when the real question should be asking what would have happened without her. I daresay you're right, Labour would have been forced into action, but they lacked one thing the Tories had in abundance - money from non-Union sources. The political reality of it is that it would have taken something akin to electoral suicide for Labour to deal with the unions with anything like the strength required (even if you think Thatcher went too far with it).

Its likewise with things like BT... the oft brought up "6 months to install a telephone line" assumes that BT would NEVER have gotten quicker or better at installing telephone lines. Is that really realistic?

Nope, it's not, but nor is it forgiveable, imo. It's entirely possible they would improve, but it's entirely possible they would not, or that they would improve and then drop back and then improve and then drop back etc.

I personally have no problem with nationalisation of the telcos. I think any industry which is by nature, a potentially disrupted and technologically competitive industry, SHOULD be open to the market. Areas in which I don't think it has been successful are all industries in which it was obvious an oligopoly would take hold. Only so many companies can afford energy exploration and R&D, only so many companies can operate our rail networks (because we only have so much rail network to give!)... Customers RELY on the services those industries provide, they should never have been allowed to cabal control away from us. The selling of some sovereign assets has facilitated that. It is the concentration of market power into fewer and fewer hands that is toxic IMO; privatisation should be evaluated not only on what short term gains we can reap, but what the long term consequences will be for that market in Britain. Capitalism encourages consolidation, it is the most effective way to grow and shut out others, but its one of the things we need be most wary of in anything we deem essential.

I think it's worth noting that HMG can't really afford energy exploration either. It's a hugely costly thing, and it's only the hope of enormous profits that means investors dump truck loads of money into companies that explore for this stuff (most of whom fail). I'd much rather we privatise the finding and acquisition and just tax the shit out of it.

Even services that people rely on that can forced to compete, we're just really bad at drawing up contracts. The private sector does it all the time - at the studio I used to work at, we had no capability for filming, we only did CG. We used to outsource the filming to other companies, and we'd get them to bid for the job. The one that gave us the best bid would get the job, but we'd have contracts in place to ensure that if they failed in any way, we'd get our money back plus damages. Now, for the government, they have slightly different interests - they don't want it to go wrong in the first place, because them getting back "the money" is no use if people can't get the train to work, for example. But there are still ways of organising contracts that make it really, really, really unaffordable to fuck it up. It's also worth remembering, when talking about privatising in this way, that we're not comparing it to a perfect nirvana of service - the public sector has its share of problems, too. The question is really which one is going to have fewer problems, and I think that's really only a judgement one can make on a case-by-case basis.
 
"In a sense we are all Thatcherites now" - PM David Cameron

Guess he really doesn't want that North vote.

Ironic that for someone so pro-union, Cameron continuously says things to alienate the Scots.

Is being the Prime Minister who couldn't control his own PR well enough to keep the Union together going to be big enough for him to be tossed to the streets by other Tories?
 
Just looked up the reason for phone installation delays. It was caused by a dispute between the GPO and phone tech companies. The GPO didn't want a proprietary system (they usually co-developed).

The GPO caved, because of the the example Phisheep gave. So it wasn't an issue of inefficiency caused by state ownership.

Interestingly there seems to have been no improvement in productivity after 84, until new regulatory powers were introduced in 91 by OfTel.
 
Apparently a picture of 'her funeral' where i live (Barnsley)...

547542_446160902136927_1138283323_n.jpg



Sigh.
 
Sharp knees.

I don't mind this stuff, it's about Thatcher the politician its not really about her as a person.

Miners equipment is a nice touch.

Eh i wouldn't say that since when people criticize a politician the two go hand in hand. You don't see Obama's detractors saying 'He's an awful president! But hes such a lovely person'
 
Eh i wouldn't say that since when people criticize a politician the two go hand in hand. You don't see Obama's detractors saying 'He's an awful president! But hes such a lovely person'

People don't know her as a person, they knew her as the the PM who shut the mines etc.

Her personal life is of Zero interest to me. I get what you mean, but that's a byproduct of her policies and her attitude in implementation.
 
People don't know her as a person, they knew her as the the PM who shut the mines etc.

Her personal life is of Zero interest to me. I get what you mean, but that's a byproduct of her policies and her attitude in implementation.

She didn't shut the mines though, she just stopped subsidising them.

Oh man, Cheney and Kissinger and Blair in one place? You could stage a mini Nuremberg trial.

Don't worry, Cheney will just shoot them both, and then himself, by accident, again.
 
She didn't shut the mines though, she just stopped subsidising them.

To the people in those areas, she shut them.

To the textile workers in factories in the north west, when she removed barriers to cheap asian imports, she shut them.

Did she go round with a padlock and personally shut them, no.
 
Christ what a total dipshit on the Beeb. Going on about how the BBC hates Thatcher and complaining about their coverage.

What a massive twat.
 
CHEEZMO™;54276867 said:
Christ what a total dipshit on the Beeb. Going on about how the BBC hates Thatcher and complaining about their coverage.

What a massive twat.

I've stuck to foreign news broadcasting, it's not the top story and it's a bit more balanced.
 
I've stuck to foreign news broadcasting, it's not the top story and it's a bit more balanced.

Yeah it's been this wank all day and I wanted to put Al Jazeera on or something to see what was going on in the world but my telly is being a cunt and wont turn over.
 
CHEEZMO™;54278502 said:
Yeah it's been this wank all day and I wanted to put Al Jazeera on or something to see what was going on in the world but my telly is being a cunt and wont turn over.


Ha, your tv is a fucking Thatcher supporter.
Suck on it you goddamn commie, pinko, guardian reading, loony leftie.
 
Didn't you guys know? Offering anything else than hagiographies towards the dead, no matter if you think they were colossal pieces of shit when they were alive, makes you pretty much a monster.
 
Apparently a picture of 'her funeral' where i live (Barnsley)...

547542_446160902136927_1138283323_n.jpg



Sigh.

I hope that's a sigh of relief. This is the way people aren't letting the media blatantly bullshit what their lives were like under Thatcher's policies and we should respect *that* more than respecting someone as rotten as her.
 
Didn't you guys know? Offering anything else than hagiographies towards the dead, no matter if you think they were colossal pieces of shit when they were alive, makes you pretty much a monster.

But it's not working. On the outside they are giving her great respect but the masses are speaking the truth.

It's an old valuable lesson. Once you're dead you have no power to control the narrative of your life. That's the domain of the living. It was taught well in A Christmas Carol. Scroog is given a chance to see what becomes of him after his death. The servants go through his pockets and even steal the sheets beneath him, giving no thought to the body.

Thatcher claimed there was no society. So for her there isn't one. A fancy funeral can't withstand a the ground-swell that drove "Ding Dong" back to No. 1.
 
I'm suprised they could fit that many cunts in St Paul's, it's obviously bigger than it looks.

It's like a TARDIS of evil.

But it's not working. On the outside they are giving her great respect but the masses are speaking the truth.

It's an old valuable lesson. Once you're dead you have no power to control the narrative of your life. That's the domain of the living. It was taught well in A Christmas Carol. Scroog is given a chance to see what becomes of him after his death. The servants go through his pockets and even steal the sheets beneath him, giving no thought to the body.

Thatcher claimed there was no society. So for her there isn't one. A fancy funeral can't withstand a the ground-swell that drove "Ding Dong" back to No. 1.

The political class and most of the media is doing the work for her.
 
Thatcher claimed there was no society. So for her there isn't one. A fancy funeral can't withstand a the ground-swell that drove "Ding Dong" back to No. 1.
No, she didn't. She said that society is made of individuals and when you rely on society you are relying on other people. That is one of the most taken out of context sound bites ever and it drives me nuts.
 
No, she didn't. She said that society is made of individuals and when you rely on society you are relying on other people. That is one of the most taken out of context sound bites ever and it drives me nuts.

The in-context quote is even worse. She claimed people who needed help 'cast their problems' on society, aka 'we aren't collectively responsible for the well being of other people' aka 'fuck you i got mine'. Hardcore libertarian objectivist nuttery.
 
Not surprising from a toff tory ex-editor of the Telegraph. They probably have a shit circulation in the areas he's talking about anyway.

The Telegraph almost hired Kelvin Mackenzie recently, until the backlash after his first column made them think better of it.

Charles Moore is a top prize cunt. He can't go a day without mentioning Thatcher or criticising the BBC. A boring sod.

EDIT:

It is unfair to say every privatisation was unsuccessful. Phone companies are clearly better for it (they could have improved if owned by the state but there is no indication that they would have) for example. Many were poorly executed - trains, for example have massive subsidies without the benefits - because the infrastructure is not there for genuine competition in rural areas. Not to say that quality hasn't improved on the services I use over the last decade...

DUH 'telcos' confused me. Ignore!
 
The reactions to this just demonstrate to me that for most people politics are like religion and football teams, something that's blindly inherited from their parents.

This is how the social and economic horrors of the 1970's are conveniently forgotten, as are the multitude of sins committed over 13 years of New Labour rule.
 
The reactions to this just demonstrate to me that for most people politics are like religion and football teams, something that's blindly inherited from their parents.

This is how the social and economic horrors of the 1970's are conveniently forgotten, as are the multitude of sins committed over 13 years of New Labour rule.

List the economic horrors of the 70's, subtract the oil shock and the resulting inflation.

Fuck New Labour.
 
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