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Why were/are the Asian immigrants so successful?

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I think we have had very different educations growing up, because my parents have never ever mentioned Confucius to me except in passing.

I wouldn't know about how Chinese debate works, however, since I left before the start of 2nd grade.
 
Can we stop citing historical Chinese figures as thought they were solely responsible for the nearly whole of East Asian culture?

It's reductionist, and it's getting tiring. Confucius was a product of the culture at the time, and only formalized it in writing. He did not invent "work ethic", and after 2500 years I'm pretty confident that East Asians can take almost full credit for their accomplishments rather than having to share them with Confucius for the rest of human history.

Really, it's fetishization at this point.

To be fair, Confucianism is so ingrained in certain East Asian cultures, that families are raised with large influence from Confucian morals and values without explicitly mentioning the name of Confucius.

Somewhat like the Protestant Work Ethic in Western Europe and the US. It's still very ingrained in the culture, but no one still associates it solely with individuals like Martin Luther or the Puritans
 
To be fair, Confucianism is so ingrained in certain East Asian cultures, that families are raised with large influence from Confucian morals and values without explicitly mentioning the name of Confucius.

Yes, I totally agree with this. But I would like people to stop using the umbrella term of "Confucianism" to describe everything Chinese (and even worse, everything East Asian). It's so ingrained in our culture that it doesn't make sense to refer to it as though it was some individual philosophy people adopt or abandon.
 
Yes, I totally agree with this. But I would like people to stop using the umbrella term of "Confucianism" to describe everything Chinese (and even worse, everything East Asian). It's so ingrained in our culture that it doesn't make sense to refer to it as though it was some individual philosophy people adopt or abandon.

I see your point now, and I agree.

Especially annoying when people take the influence of Confucianism on Asian culture to mean that Asian people are all some sort of philosophers/mystics that can quote Confucian aphorisms at will.
 
Asians are viewed as overwhelmingly successful?

Sure with regards to Chinese and Japanese. But most other groups... Not so much.

You have crap like the media playing blacks against Koreans, which played a huge role in the LA riots breaking out.

Here in my town, we have a large Cambodian-American. They're looked on with so much disgust here it's not even funny. Someone said most people don't think of Asians as thugs... Cambodians certainly are thought of that way. Filipinos too.
 
Yes, I totally agree with this. But I would like people to stop using the umbrella term of "Confucianism" to describe everything Chinese (and even worse, everything East Asian). It's so ingrained in our culture that it doesn't make sense to refer to it as though it was some individual philosophy people adopt or abandon.

Well Confucius's Four Books and Five Classics had been used as the main topic of imperial examination since 700 AD all the way until communist takeover in the 1900. To become a government official through the exam, one has to memorize all Confucian literature, naturally Confucianism became the main topic in Chinese education for over a thousand year.

Knowing Confucian literature is what separate the scholar and the farmer for all those time. It is hard to argue that Confucianism doesn't have a direct shaped Chinese culture into the way we are today.

I do notice that Confucianism is getting weaker and weaker in China, especially in the second generation American Chinese
 
I think the much better question is how are the Jews so successful. For a people that has been without their homeland for thousands of yearsand, that were prosecuted, killed and had their property taken from virtually every country they went to, they have an extremely high percentage of very rich people (including a, relatively speaking, absurd number of billionaires). I've read some studies linking Ashkenazi Jews to above average verbal inteligence, but whatever it is, they seem to know how to carve the path to success.
 
Boat refugees from Vietnam have integrated reasonably well into Finnish society, same can be said of Chinese small business owners but I wouldn't view them as particularly successful.

They aren't known for innovation or for creating big companies with ideas. Their children haven't really prospered as of yet.

Regarding their own societies, it doesn't exactly look great. They have great culture and traditions but there's no way I'd eve move back to China. Give me South-America over that horrible place any day of the week for example.
 
The old-school way Asians focus on getting good grades will help you succeed up to a point. Pure memorizing to the exclusion of other social activities won't make you a free-thinker or help you become a future entrepreneur, but it will help you get a decent job as a technician, engineer or office worker and help get a foothold in the middle class.
 
"Did you know there are more people with genius IQs living in China than there are people of any kind living in the United States? "
 
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Yes, I totally agree with this. But I would like people to stop using the umbrella term of "Confucianism" to describe everything Chinese (and even worse, everything East Asian). It's so ingrained in our culture that it doesn't make sense to refer to it as though it was some individual philosophy people adopt or abandon.

To be fair - in an academic sense and beyond the scope of this thread - Confucianism is an umbrella term though. It can be used do describe everything from historical Chinese government, law and education - to the structuring of society - to ancestor worship - to the formal religion of Confucianism - to Confucius and Mencius as philosophers. So I think it's fair to use the word "Confucianism" to describe aspect of East Asian culture in the same way you use the word "Classical" to describe aspects of Western culture.

But I agree with, what I think is your point, in that it might be an overstatement to say the supposed supposed success of Asians can be attributed directly as "Confucianism". For one thing, unless you came here as an adult you simply weren't socialized in the culture of your parents. Sure it has a massive effects on you, but if you are say, Taiwanese but grew up in the US, when you go visit your grandmother in Taiwan, it's totally different. You are totally different because you were socialized in the West as a Westerner.

So while I just said Asians growing up in the US aren't socialized under Confucian culture their parents likely were so at least some of the basic foundations of home life are. So what I do think is fair to say is that the educational and social achievements obtained by many Asians (but as other posters have pointed out let's not forget the numerous Asians living in poverty) can be attributed to Confucian culture in as much as Confucian culture reinforces family cohesion (for better or worse!) and a focus on education and discipline.

To frame this with my Confucianism:Asia::Classicism:Europe analogy - this is like saying successes achieved by Europeans can be attributed to Classical culture in as much as Classical culture reinforces individualism and free thought.

TL;DR

I agree that Confucianism per se might be an overstatement for perceived achievements of Asians, but I don't think it's unfair to say Confucianism (as ingrained in East Asian family culture to varying degrees) is a factor in that success. This is because Confucianism is to East Asian culture as Classicism is to Western Culture.

TL;DR2

I think we agree entirely even if we arrive at the answer in different ways!
 
I must say I am VERY impressed with the responses in this thread. I will admit that the comparison to Asians and Jews is a good point. As Lagspike said they were persecuted and oppressed in many nations yet it seems that everywhere they have notably higher median incomes than the general population. Opiate's example of comparing African Americans and American Indians is a fantastic comparison. While different they are probably the most similar groups in terms of having similar experiences in the United States yet they both have very similar rates of poverty with neither of them are having their rates decreasing.

I also agree with Opiate that, as much as it shudders me to say, we shouldn't X out things because they are taboo. Stating that things could be genetic shouldn't be thrown out the window because we fear that there will be a creation of an Asian Hitler (Opiate Godwined first) some years down the line.

I would really like to hear more about Asians in Finland or some of the Nordic countries (excluding Sweden). Basically Asians are known to get ahead due to academics but in Finland where they have higher test scores than even those in the Asian countries I wonder if their educational ladder diminishes.

I always wonder that if every community had the same drive as the Asian communities that if poverty would be significantly reduced. Yes they significantly reduced their poverty rates but they represent a little more than 5% of the total American population, and even in California only a bit more than 12%. I assume the poor Asians make up a fraction of those percents. How much poverty would their be if all demographics had their immense drive? In other words how many of the nations poor could this economy reasonably move? I mean Japan, a nation with a social welfare system similar to America only with free healthcare, even during their economic boom of the 1980s had at least a 7.5% poverty rate and that doesn't include the fact that the nation is supposedly horrendous at measuring poverty.

Also exactly how much "blame" can we put on people for not adopting some aspects of the culture and customs common in this group?
 
I like how within a century Confucianism has gone from an anchor holding China down from Western advancements (and Asia in general excluding Japan by about a quarter century) to once again being the reason for Asian success. Mystifying.
 
I would really like to hear more about Asians in Finland or some of the Nordic countries (excluding Sweden). Basically Asians are known to get ahead due to academics but in Finland where they have higher test scores than even those in the Asian countries I wonder if their educational ladder diminishes.


The problem in Finland for any second generation immigrants are basically the examination tests for any higher education since one has to compete with ethnic Finns (especially the girls, law school these days is like an all-girl boarding school). There are a lot of Chinese students in the university of applied sciences but competition for jobs is tough these days. Many of them move on to other countries (purchasing power and taxation is also playing its part) which is a shame, because taking advantage of free education and not giving back to the community is not exactly ideal. Finland is not going to change its education policy however, we will need to find ways to create more job opportunities in the future. Easier said than done, because moving to England for example can be a status symbol to many.

As for crime, the statistics are not bad. There is slightly above average violence and a few worrying aspects in certain communities. These issues are related to human trafficking and not paying proper wages to employees but they are mostly isolated incidents.
 
The problem in Finland for any second generation immigrants are basically the examination tests for any higher education since one has to compete with ethnic Finns (especially the girls, law school these days is like an all-girl boarding school). There are a lot of Chinese students in the university of applied sciences but competition for jobs is tough these days. Many of them move on to other countries (purchasing power and taxation is also playing its part) which is a shame, because taking advantage of free education and not giving back to the community is not exactly ideal. Finland is not going to change its education policy however, we will need to find ways to create more job opportunities in the future.

As for crime, the statistics are not bad. There is some violence within the Vietnamese community and slightly worrying aspects inside the Chinese community however. These issues are related to human trafficking and not paying proper wages to employees.

I find it very intriguing that the model minority status did not occur in Finland due to education. Very small sample size I know (probably around 8,000), but still.

I mean the PISA scores for Finland blows my mind. Also China shouldn't count for shit because they use the richest of the rich kids in comparison to everyone else. But even excluding that with a less than five percent of a difference in two out of the three categories and less than ten for Math, does it really matter at that point?
 
Makes me sad to see a white homeless guy begg for money on the street. Tear. So many opportunities.

I don't want to be the first Asian begging on the street for spare change. That's being lazy.
 
Makes me sad to see a white homeless guy begg for money on the street. Tear. So many opportunities.

I don't want to be the first Asian begging on the street for spare change. That's being lazy.

Please be joking.

I worked with some ex and at the time current homeless people. Nearly all of them either had mental illnesses with those that didn't got really hard down on their luck.
 
I find it very intriguing that the model minority status did not occur in Finland due to education. Very small sample size I know (probably around 8,000), but still.

I mean the PISA scores for Finland blows my mind. Also China shouldn't count for shit because they use the richest of the rich kids in comparison to everyone else. But even excluding that with a less than five percent of a difference in two out of the three categories and less than ten for Math, does it really matter at that point?

It's too early to tell at this point what kind of impact education will have, because most Asian students haven't gone through our primary school system - many come from higher income families and go straight to applied sciences from their country of origin.

Hard to draw comparisons statistically but I think our system isn't exclusive to people coming from different backgrounds. Family dynamics definitely play a role but the way our education system works shouldn't pose major difficulties to Asian students. Teachers are generally very adept pedagogically and are aware of the cultural differences. In other European countries (France, cough cough) Asian students have even resorted to suicide attempts as teachers have given them negative feedback during class, that's probably unthinkable in countries such as Japan.
 
Oh my god please read a history book.


I've seen you overreact to things in OT before, but this is ridiculous. Anyone else could (or at least should have been able to) see that he was being sarcastic.

I count 4 other posters other than myself who replied to you and didn't get your "sarcasm."

Four other people who apparently are way too tightly wound. You took what was obviously meant to be an absurd statement seriously, get over it.
 
I like how within a century Confucianism has gone from an anchor holding China down from Western advancements (and Asia in general excluding Japan by about a quarter century) to once again being the reason for Asian success. Mystifying.

In China, at least, it started in the late 70's under Deng Xiaoping. The rhetoric used once again became distinctly Confucian, and was a rejection of Maoism. Dare I say the CCP rules because they possess the Mandate of Heaven. This might be an overstatement, but I've seen videos of farmers and peasants bragging about how the current "emperor" (Xi Jinping) was from their province (Shaanxi).
 
I mean the PISA scores for Finland blows my mind.

Just to add something about those PISA-scores.

Finland hasn't done anything earth shattering. It's mostly about letting children play a lot, make it illegal for education to be profit-based, define standards for teachers and let them find solutions case-by-case basis and just work it from there. A normal day in school for my nephew last week was :

45min of watching Planet Earth in Geography class
Recess
45min of singing in English and doing conversation exercises
Recess
45min of handiwork with wood. Students are allowed to choose what they want to create.
Lunch and long recess
45min of math
Recess
Sports : Students can choose to go swimming or play team sports of their choosing.

The schedules and subjects change periodically and daily but there no tests, just constructive feedback. I believe it's the right way to go.
 
Homeless Asians exist and have a similar rate as white people.

Just to add something about those PISA-scores.

Finland hasn't done anything earth shattering. It's mostly about letting children play a lot, make it illegal for education to be profit-based, define standards for teachers and let them find solutions case-by-case basis and just work it from there. A normal day in school for my nephew last week was :

45min of watching Planet Earth in Geography class
Recess
45min of singing in English and doing conversation exercises
Recess
45min of handiwork with wood. Students are allowed to choose what they want to create.
Lunch and long recess
45min of math
Recess
Sports : Students can choose to go swimming or play team sports of their choosing.

The schedules and subjects change periodically and daily but there no tests, just constructive feedback. I believe it's the right way to go.

Indeed. I always find the fact that children have to be in school for hours on end only to get back home and then study for hours ridiculous.
 
It's pretty much the worst joke post of 2013.

If you have to spell out the sarcasm in a joke post sssllllooooowwwwwly so that everyone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt its a joke post, you fail at making joke posts.

So I suppose the lesson, OJdaKiller, is that joke posts, nay, sarcasm in general, is not allowed on OT. Never mind that what you said was too absurd to have even a remote likelihood of being a real, serious post.
 
I always wonder that if every community had the same drive as the Asian communities that if poverty would be significantly reduced. Yes they significantly reduced their poverty rates but they represent a little more than 5% of the total American population, and even in California only a bit more than 12%. I assume the poor Asians make up a fraction of those percents. How much poverty would their be if all demographics had their immense drive? In other words how many of the nations poor could this economy reasonably move? I mean Japan, a nation with a social welfare system similar to America only with free healthcare, even during their economic boom of the 1980s had at least a 7.5% poverty rate and that doesn't include the fact that the nation is supposedly horrendous at measuring poverty.

Also exactly how much "blame" can we put on people for not adopting some aspects of the culture and customs common in this group?

You are idealizing the culture of Asian immigrants to an extreme degree. Asian countries have poverty rates similar or higher to the US. There is no magic formula in these these Asian cultures that makes them work harder.

This "immense drive" you refer to is the general immigrant mentality; it is not unique to only Asian immigrants. Arriving immigrants understand that a stronger work ethic is required to compensate for the initial economic/social disparity after arriving in a new country. After the sacrifice involved in leaving the homeland, they are given one chance to start over, and they're not fucking up this chance by being unmotivated.

This motivation from the immigrant mentality will naturally be diluted among the children in the 2nd and 3rd generation groups, but at least the first generation will have provided them with a stable financial base.

Let's be honest here: the model minority myth is mainly used for political purposes. It is one of the misconceptions that prevents meaningful educational and social reform in this country. It is poor reasoning to compare a recent immigrant group with native groups like African Americans, given the inertia from generations of social disparities and discrimination to has been applied to the latter group. To keep looking for the "magic formula" about Asian culture just furthers the ignorance that stands in the way of real reform.
 
To be fair, many asian immigrants haven't made their career to the top end despite good education. The success is therefore relative.
 
Having Chinese parents who I find were moderately successful after coming here in the 1980's (owned a very profitable restaurant), there's that rise from poverty via hardwork (and nonstop hardwork - like no holidays really except Christmas) that really got them to succeed.

Also, once you experience poverty, it is really the push to make you want to do anything you can to have a better way of life. And you see a new country as a new opportunity to make it happen. That being said, this was back in the 1990's and I think it was easier to own/manage a successful restaurant then than it is now (and we got very lucky on location).
 
- Huge family support in Asian culture. I'm talking cousins, aunts, uncles -- everyone supports their family unconditionally

- Obvious commitment to education

- Priorities and money-saving: I know Asian parents that have never applied for a credit card, rarely take vacations, and don't buy anything unnecessary or extravagant for nearly 20 years until their house is completely paid off. Debt is avoided at all costs.

- Work ethics from home country to the west: most are paid very little for their work. When they come to the US/Canada, being paid minimum wage with lighter work (as a janitor/server/cook/etc) is considered "easy".

Don't know if these are exclusive to Asians but I think these are the big ones. That said, I think things will start changing for 2nd or 3rd generation Asians as they assimilate to North American culture. Also, the person that talked about lower Asian aspirations seems right. You'll see a lot of Asian people happy to be in mid-management or senior roles (i.e. 70k-100k range) but few will have aspirations of making it to CEO or presidency.
 
I know next to nothing about this but if I had to guess I would say it mainly comes down to a culturally inculcated predisposition toward hard work and academic achievement.
 
People dont leave everything that theyve known behind and spend their entire savings to fly half across the world to be lazy.
People say filipinos are extremely hard working. But when I went to Philippines I can tell you theres a crap load of lazy fuckers there, those are the ones that wont be coming to canada.

And already mentioned, family support. I know some people that pay their parents rent to stay at home, and they also have to pay for their own college education. And as soon as they can they'll find a tiny apartment to rent and live on their own. For asians though its not uncommon to only move out when they can already afford their own house.
 
Higher IQ, it's a fact.

Youre probably joking, but...

At the preschool level, inattention from care providers has a huge impact on the child's developing language skills and future IQ scores. A six-year study by Hart and Risley (1995) that followed the outcomes of children selected from different socioeconomic backgrounds found that by age 3, the children of professional parents were adding words to their vocabularies at about twice the rate of children in welfare families. Both the quantity and the quality of phrases directed at the children by caregivers correlated directly with income levels. They found that a pattern of slow vocabulary growth helped put in place a slower cognitive pattern by the time children turned 3. In fact, IQ tests performed later in childhood showed the welfare students' scores trailing behind those of the more affluent children by up to 29 percent. Parents of low socioeconomic status are also less likely to tailor their conversations to evoke thoughtful and reasoned responses from their children.

Going hand in hand with language acquisition, reading is one of the most important factors affecting the development of a child's brain. Reading skills are not hardwired into the human brain; every subskill of reading, including (but not limited to) phonological awareness, fluency, vocabulary, phonics, and comprehension, must be explicitly taught. This teaching requires attention, focus, and motivation from the primary caregiver. Again, the time and expertise to make this happen are unfortunately in short supply among poor families. Evidence suggests that poverty adversely alters the trajectory of the developing reading brain (Noble, Wolmetz, Ochs, Farah, & McCandliss, 2006).

Even when low-income parents do everything they can for their children, their limited resources put kids at a huge disadvantage. The growing human brain desperately needs coherent, novel, challenging input, or it will scale back its growth trajectory. When a child is neglected, the brain does not grow as much (De Bellis, 2005; Grassi-Oliveira, Ashy, & Stein, 2008). Unfortunately, low-SES children overall receive less cognitive stimulation than middle-income children do. For example, they are less likely to be read to by parents: Coley (2002) found that only 36 percent of low-income parents read to their kindergarten-age children each day, compared with 62 percent of upper-income parents. In addition, low-SES children are less likely to be coached in learning skills or helped with homework, and they are half as likely as their well-off peers to be taken to museums (Bradley, Corwyn, Burchinal et al., 2001; Bradley, Corwyn, McAdoo et al., 2001) and on other culturally enriching outings. They also have fewer play areas in their homes; have less access to computers and the Internet (and use them in less sophisticated ways); own fewer books, toys, and other recreational or learning materials; spend more time watching television; and are less likely to have friends over to play (Evans, 2004). Low-income parents' financial limitations often exclude their kids from healthy after-school activities, such as music, athletics, dance, or drama (Bracey, 2006).

http://www.ascd.org/publications/bo...ffects-behavior-and-academic-performance.aspx

Universal Pre-K education and mandatory 1 month (or more) maternity leave would be HUGE
 
I wouldn't emphasize IQ tests too much, because of the mathematical nature of it - it should belong to the history books with all the other psychometric nonsense from the early 1900's.

I also don't necessarily think there should be any education before the age of 7 (depending what you mean with the term in this instance), children should mostly socialize among themselves and experience their environment together. In my kindergarten we did read a bit but mostly it was about drawing pictures, creating decorations and singing.
 
Really random post, but this is the answer.

The Asian communites that we generally percive to be successful are all very close knit, supportive, and also quite exclusionary. The Korean(?) immigrants would pool and loan their money within the community to start businesses and such, instead of going to banks. It's a pretty important foundation that much of their success is built upon, and I think this practice is still true for many of the Asian communities in order to support new immigrants.
 
I wouldn't emphasize IQ tests too much, because of the mathematical nature of it - it should belong to the history books with all the other psychometric nonsense from the early 1900's.

I also don't necessarily think there should be any education before the age of 7 (depending what you mean with the term in this instance), children should mostly socialize among themselves and experience their environment together. In my kindergarten we did read a bit but mostly it was about drawing pictures, creating decorations and singing.

The problem with kids in poverty is that they arent getting nearly enough socialization when they are very young, and that puts their emotional and cognitive development WAY behind. I mean, a single mom working 2 minimum wage jobs who can't afford a decent daycare is not going to see her kid all that much
 
I look at how hard they work and how they use their intelligence and I feel belittled. I know that I can't reach that level of dedication and focus because I am a spoiled brat. I am jealous!
 
Really random post, but this is the answer.

The Asian communites that we generally percive to be successful are all very close knit, supportive, and also quite exclusionary. The Korean(?) immigrants would pool and loan their money within the community to start businesses and such, instead of going to banks. It's a pretty important foundation that much of their success is built upon, and I think this practice is still true for many of the Asian communities in order to support new immigrants.

It has been a coping mechanism for many ethnic groups when they are in a foreign environment since racism and other such issues always exist.

But I actually see it as a detriment in modern western societies. In Scandinavia nothing good can come out of isolation, because to achieve in life one must be able to constantly create new connections.

And then there are the byproducts of closed communities, social problems and crime that goes unreported.

The problem with kids in poverty is that they arent getting nearly enough socialization when they are very young, and that puts their emotional and cognitive development WAY behind. I mean, a single mom working 2 minimum wage jobs who can't afford a decent daycare is not going to see her kid all that much

Definitely an issue and that's why daycare services should be available and free to low income families.
 
All Asian immigrants have always lived in good, no crime neighborhoods. All of their parents are well-to-do and educated. And finally, all Asian immigrants have never been discriminated against in any form. They've had it really easy.

Please say this is a joke post. These threads are a simulation of a first-year college course where the prof poses the same question, and then people proceed to babble unsubstantiated nonsense for ages. Problem is, unlike said course in which the students then go on to study a number of informed perspectives and then return to that initial question, this course concludes on that first day.
 
Asians just happened to not be anywhere near America while America was developing its deep-rooted cultural structures designed to empower whites at the cost of people of color, so the discrimination targeted at them is a little more ad hoc. (Not that there wasn't a lot of Asian prejudice in the early 1900s, of course.)

To complicate your perspective some, consider that whites ended up in the Americas in an attempt to expand commerce/conquest with/over Asia. To propose that "Asians just happened to not be anywhere near America while America was developing its deep-rooted cultural structures designed to empower whites at the cost of people of color" is preposterous. And once continental powers established colonies in the Americas they remained Asia-facing. To really complicate your assumption, however, consider that Chinese and Jewish immigrant populations have a tremendous track record of relative success across space and time (i.e. populations in a broad range of locations and at differing points in history). In other words the discussion is not isolated to the present day United States.
 
ancient chinese secret



edit: organization and sometimes prior wealth. And lots of times neither, and not everyone was/is generally successful.
 
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