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[pieatorium]

Quinton actually makes a lot of fair points.
No console used/shown and few games at the show.

Bottleneck isn't the case but 8GB is maybe inefficient.

Most of the press from the event was surprised that there were actually alot of games shown compared to most other reveal events.

 

[KidBeta]

1) I never debated this fact.

2) First, lets make a comparison. I'm going to use Dr. Tre's example since it's the easiest to follow. So, lets say DDR3 is a small pick up truck and you're driving it on the highway. If you miss an exit, there's no worries because another exit is 3 blocks away. Now, for GDDR5, you have a large Uhaul truck and you're driving it on the highway. If you miss an exit, the next exit isn't for another 5 miles.

The point being, GDDR5 can carry a huge load of data, but it takes time for it to access that data. An OOO CPU wouldn't benefit from GDDR5 because it'll constantly be waiting for the GDDR5 to access the data it needs. Thus, if the CPU has instructions it wishes to run out of order and lets say a few of those instructions query the RAM, its gonna have to wait. The waiting is the bottleneck.

3) Who cares? My point is that the console was rushed.

GDDR5 can be just as fast as DDR3 latency wise.

 

[ekim]

1) I never debated this fact.

2) First, lets make a comparison. I'm going to use Dr. Tre's example since it's the easiest to follow. So, lets say DDR3 is a small pick up truck and you're driving it on the highway. If you miss an exit, there's no worries because another exit is 3 blocks away. Now, for GDDR5, you have a large Uhaul truck and you're driving it on the highway. If you miss an exit, the next exit isn't for another 5 miles.

The point being, GDDR5 can carry a huge load of data, but it takes time for it to access that data. An OOO CPU wouldn't benefit from GDDR5 because it'll constantly be waiting for the GDDR5 to access the data it needs. Thus, if the CPU has instructions it wishes to run out of order and lets say a few of those instructions query the RAM, its gonna have to wait. The waiting is the bottleneck.

3) Who cares? My point is that the console was rushed.

2) I don't need an example that's missing the point of this discussion. You basically said, that GDDR5 bottlenecks an OOO CPU - this is simply not true. I see how you did come to that conclusion but fact is, that GDDR5's latency would have a worse performance impact on an In-Order CPU - so an OOO CPU is the better choice here because L1 cache misses can be compensated, easy speaking, by simply executing another instruction while the other one is waiting for the memory call. An In-Order CPU would be stall in that case.

3) So you mean Mark Cerny basically lied in every interview about the PS4's hardware? I'm having a hard time believing that.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

GDDR5 can be just as fast as DDR3 latency wise.

This is incorrect.

2) I don't need an example that's missing the point of this discussion. You basically said, that GDDR5 bottlenecks an OOO CPU - this is simply not true. I see how you did come to that conclusion but fact is, that GDDR5's latency would have a worse performance impact on an In-Order CPU - so an OOO CPU is the better choice here because L1 cache misses can be compensated, easy speaking, by simply executing another instruction while the other one is waiting for the memory call. An In-Order CPU would be stall in that case.

3) So you mean Mark Cerny basically lied in every interview about the PS4's hardware? I'm having a hard time believing that.

2) Due to the fact that you don't understand the topic you're discussing, I can understand why you'd feel that way. However, I've pointed to many things which would explain a lot.

a) The cores have 512kb L2 cache each. This means that the processor is going to need to cache information into main memory since there isn't enough inside of its L2 cache.

b) So, while an instruction is waiting to grab data from memory, another instruction is going to work with what exactly? You do realize that a CPU works like this: Input --> Process --> Output right? So, if there's no data for it to input (because it's waiting), what do you think those other instructions are going to do? The point being, multiple instructions will need to query memory and that won't be quick. The L2 cache is tiny and when you're dealing with games that eat L2 cache for dinner, you're going to have a lot of swapping.

c) If a company were taking their time building this system, it would be a lot more efficient than this.

Somebody in this thread mentioned "tradeoffs". A tradeoff is a bottleneck. You use one device and gimp the other. That's a trade off. For example, the N64's CPU was a bottleneck since it did everything through a central unit. You use too much of this and the sound would suffer. You use too much for sound and the graphics would suffer and etc.

3) Ok? I'm not debating this either.

 

[KidBeta]

This is incorrect.

Mr evidence i see. Show me, prove to me.

The latency is programmable.

 

[grimshawish]

Most of the press from the event was surprised that there were actually alot of games shown compared to most other reveal events.

Sorry meant running on the PS4.
Should say theres a lot to suggest the PS4 has been in the work for years but I don't think what hes saying is that crazy other than screaming about bottles.

 

[twobear]

3) So you mean Mark Cerny basically lied in every interview about the PS4's hardware? I'm having a hard time believing that.

Well, what do you think he would say instead?

Presumably it's a shock to you that Iwata was less than honest about developer support for WiiU?

 

[Busty]

if this rumor is true, you can expect three or four pretty big third party exclusives from MS in the fist 12/18 months of the Durango's life.

Fixed.

 

[pieatorium]

Sorry meant running on the PS4.
Should say theres a lot to suggest the PS4 has been in the work for years but I don't think what hes saying is that crazy other than screaming about bottles.

Only watchdogs was confirmed not running on PS4 tech i believe.

The only thing he is saying is that the machine is rushed and has bottlenecks, you disagree with both these statements but don't think he is crazy?

 

[ekim]

Well, what do you think he would say instead?

Presumably it's a shock to you that Iwata was less than honest about developer support for WiiU?

I don't get your point...

 

[grimshawish]

Only watchdogs was confirmed not running on PS4 tech i believe.

The only thing he is saying is that the machine is rushed and has bottlenecks, you disagree with both these statements but don't think he is crazy?

I disagree with someone = they must be deranged?
My point is it seems a valid view point.

 

[Jinko]

What console hasn't had bottlenecks ?

 

[AkimbO_Arcana]

wow, last few pages were awesome. Kinda off topic but great fun!

 

[pieatorium]

I disagree with someone = they must be deranged?
My point is it seems a valid view point.

Why do you think it is a valid viewpoint though?

 

[VE3TRO]

I'm sure we will have plenty of shitty 1st & 3rd party exclusive Kinect titles at launch.

Should of held Gears Judgment back for a launch title.

 

[warthog]

3) Who cares? My point is that the console was rushed.

It's always rushed, or should be, otherwise you're stuck with yesterdays tech.

But overrushing? I doubt it. Everything about the first reveal indicated some serious thinking, planning and interacting with devs and others involved was done in the preparation of their new console.

 

[AlphaDump]

Mr evidence i see. Show me, prove to me.

The latency is programmable.

Speed of light with less overhead since it is bound to the GPU.

 

[grimshawish]

Why do you think it is a valid viewpoint though?

If the processor thing is true thats a worry.
Sony bought Gaikai last year so if those services are fundamental as presented to us? They have cut time pretty close.

Am not sure why am arguing about someones ability to hold an opinion. The answer is ofc they can.

 

[pieatorium]

If the processor thing is true thats a worry.
Sony bought Gaikai last year so if those services are fundamental as presented to us? They have cut time pretty close.

Others are saying it would be worse with a different kind of processor, why not take their point of view? Is it some kind of fraternity between posters who were junoired for being Nintendo fanboys?

 

[mysteriousmage09]

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546140

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

For the lazy.

Sounds Good, But... Bottlenecks?

One thing Cerny was not at all shy about discussing are the system's bottlenecks -- because, in his view, he and his engineers have done a great job of devising ways to work around them.

"With graphics, the first bottleneck you’re likely to run into is memory bandwidth. Given that 10 or more textures per object will be standard in this generation, it’s very easy to run into that bottleneck," he said. "Quite a few phases of rendering become memory bound, and beyond shifting to lower bit-per-texel textures, there’s not a whole lot you can do. Our strategy has been simply to make sure that we were using GDDR5 for the system memory and therefore have a lot of bandwidth."

That's one down. "If you're not bottlenecked by memory, it's very possible -- if you have dense meshes in your objects -- to be bottlenecked on vertices. And you can try to ask your artists to use larger triangles, but as a practical matter, it's difficult to achieve that. It's quite common to be displaying graphics where much of what you see on the screen is triangles that are just a single pixel in size. In which case, yes, vertex bottlenecks can be large."

"There are a broad variety of techniques we've come up with to reduce the vertex bottlenecks, in some cases they are enhancements to the hardware," said Cerny. "The most interesting of those is that you can use compute as a frontend for your graphics."

This technique, he said, is "a mix of hardware, firmware inside of the GPU, and compiler technology. What happens is you take your vertex shader, and you compile it twice, once as a compute shader, once as a vertex shader. The compute shader does a triangle sieve -- it just does the position computations from the original vertex shader and sees if the triangle is backfaced, or the like. And it's generating, on the fly, a reduced set of triangles for the vertex shader to use. This compute shader and the vertex shader are very, very tightly linked inside of the hardware."

It's also not a hard solution to implement, Cerny suggested. "From a graphics programmer perspective, using this technique means setting some compiler flags and using a different mode of the graphics API. So this is the kind of thing where you can try it in an afternoon and see if it happens to bump up your performance."

These processes are "so tightly linked," said Cerny, that all that's required is "just a ring buffer for indices... it's the Goldilocks size. It's small enough to fit the cache, it's large enough that it won't stall out based on discrepancies between the speed of processing of the compute shaders and the vertex shaders."

He has also promised Gamasutra that the company is working on a version of its performance analysis tool, Razor, optimized for the PlayStation 4, as well as example code to be distributed to developers. Cerny would also like to distribute real-world code: "If somebody has written something interesting and is willing to post the source for it, to make it available to the other PlayStation developers, then that has the highest value."

Truly, the GDDR5 Ram was the choice of a 12 year old, Sony is rushing the console and Nintendo is the reason why.

 

[grimshawish]

Others are saying it would be worse with a different kind of processor, why not take their point of view? Is it some kind of fraternity between posters who were junoired for being Nintendo fanboys?

Wtf????????

 

[Satchel]

It works in what exactly? Yeah it's basically 2006 again, but this time MS play the past sony role.

Based on what?

Nothing official?

 

[AlphaDump]

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546140

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

For the lazy.



Truly, the GDDR5 Ram was the choice of a 12 year old, Sony is rushing the console and Nintendo is the reason why.

Speed of light. Latency doesn't matter if it is bound to a GPU. It has inherently less distance to travel.

I can carry 500 pounds but have to travel 5 seconds to get it. I can carry 400 pounds but travel 0 seconds to get it. etc etc.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Wow, we have a new Carmack here. I never heard a single developer to say something negative about ps4 hardware until now.

Noone had anything negative to say about ps3 either before release, they are making games for it, regardless if it is the best thing since sliced bread or a potential cause for world war 3 or anywhere in between, they will sing its praises as if it's the best thing since sliced bread out of self interest.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I disagree with someone = they must be deranged?
My point is it seems a valid view point.

Being clearly deranged is enough to make conclusions about derangement.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I remember many games being rushed and disappointing, but I don't remember anything wrong with the first NNN. I really liked that game.

Ugh i don't think NNN is good for most people
Still just an example

 

[Pie and Beans]

The WUST did not have a good effect on this forum. The echo chamber of Nintendo fan conspiracies lead a lot of people to believe they fully grasped all aspects of technology and forged in the fires of that insular community we find them outside of it trying to throw shit at the next gen consoles when their reasoning is powerfully flawed.

Heres a real discussion on PS4 bottlenecks from the man himself:
http://gamingbolt.com/mark-cerny-comments-on-ps4-bottlenecks-and-how-devs-can-overcome

and a more indepth article on everything else:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php
highlighting this console has been in the works from as early as 2008. So no. Not "rushed", and there are other games you arent seeing yet because who shows all their eggs at once almost a full year before release?

Christ, can't believe I even had to type that.

 

[Jinko]

Truly, the GDDR5 Ram was the choice of a 12 year old, Sony is rushing the console and Nintendo is the reason why.

Is this sarcasm, I can't tell.

Otherwise how did you come to that conclusion, cause I did not.

 

[Radec]

Y'all getting trolled yo!

 

[KidBeta]

This is incorrect.




2) Due to the fact that you don't understand the topic you're discussing, I can understand why you'd feel that way. However, I've pointed to many things which would explain a lot.

a) The cores have 512kb L2 cache each. This means that the processor is going to need to cache information into main memory since there isn't enough inside of its L2 cache.

b) So, while an instruction is waiting to grab data from memory, another instruction is going to work with what exactly? You do realize that a CPU works like this: Input --> Process --> Output right? So, if there's no data for it to input (because it's waiting), what do you think those other instructions are going to do? The point being, multiple instructions will need to query memory and that won't be quick. The L2 cache is tiny and when you're dealing with games that eat L2 cache for dinner, you're going to have a lot of swapping.

c) If a company were taking their time building this system, it would be a lot more efficient than this.

Somebody in this thread mentioned "tradeoffs". A tradeoff is a bottleneck. You use one device and gimp the other. That's a trade off. For example, the N64's CPU was a bottleneck since it did everything through a central unit. You use too much of this and the sound would suffer. You use too much for sound and the graphics would suffer and etc.

3) Ok? I'm not debating this either.

You do realise that the CPU will cache data before its needed right?. and that it can quite easily switch execution contexts when one needs to wait on a slow read right?.

also wrt to latency.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50546526
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50538672&postcount=1602
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50535324&postcount=1598
http://www.elpida.com/pdfs/E1864E10.pdf

 

[mysteriousmage09]

Is this sarcasm, I can't tell.

Otherwise how did you come to that conclusion, cause I did not.

Read Quinton's posts.

 

[Satchel]

I'm relatively certain quinton could be a character of some sort, but at the same time, because I'm not au fait with this stuff, everything he says about the RAM and such sounds so logical and plausible.

He's fucking with my simpleton mind.

 

[Ninja Moomin]

It works in what exactly? Yeah it's basically 2006 again, but this time MS play the past sony role.

it works well enough that it changed the market for the 360.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

there is some seriously strong sherm being smoked in this thread.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546140

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php

For the lazy.



Truly, the GDDR5 Ram was the choice of a 12 year old, Sony is rushing the console and Nintendo is the reason why.

Did you even understand what he was saying? He didn't address the bottlenecks I'm talking about.

Want to try again?

 

[KidBeta]

Did you even understand what he was saying? He didn't address the bottlenecks I'm talking about.

Want to try again?

You don't seem to understand what your saying so id leave the insulting to others.

 

[Ol No Bones]

I'm confused at why a source would know so much about microsofts and playstations first party studios. I wouldn't think either company would be bringing in outsiders at such a crucial time. Microsoft has quite a few first party studios now and is close to Sony in number of dev teams. I'm all for 3rd party exclusives because they tend to be great games. I kinda want the Xbox to be in second or last place because when Microsoft are behind Sony a lot of good exclusives come out on both platforms.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Did you even understand what he was saying? He didn't address the bottlenecks I'm talking about.

Want to try again?

Because they don't exist.

Pro-tip: if you are agreeing with Quinton and disagreeing with Cerny you are doing it wrong. Don't just assume because someone can throw all the terms into a paragraph that they have even the fucking foggiest what they're talking about, even if part of his "Defend Nintendo" parameters align with your own.

 

[Ran rp]

Quinton McLeod
Do you even understand?

 

[Auto_aim1]

Did you even understand what he was saying? He didn't address the bottlenecks I'm talking about.

Want to try again?

Do you seriously think the Sony studios who collaborated to come up with this design don't know what they're doing?

And here you go:

We've got the right amount of memory, video card; everything's balanced out. It was a very conscious effort to make sure that – with the speed of the memory, the amount of compute units, the speed of the hard drive – there would not be any bottlenecks.

I think it was for more than a year that we knew the main ingredients and there was just discussion after discussion trying to find a bottleneck. Take a look at this design; try to find the bottleneck.

http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/killz...ce_bottlenecks_claims_killzone_developer.html

 

[MarkMclovin]

Haha well this thread turned out a great read!

He's trolling, surely?

 

[Satchel]

I'm confused at why a source would know so much about microsofts and playstations first party studios. I wouldn't think either company would be bringing in outsiders at such a crucial time. Microsoft has quite a few first party studios now and is close to Sony in number of dev teams. I'm all for 3rd party exclusives because they tend to be great games. I kinda want the Xbox to be in second or last place because when Microsoft are behind Sony a lot of good exclusives come out on both platforms.

Yeah, not sure why you can't have both.

I think people forget how many studios Microsoft actually has. I mean, Lionhead, Rare, 343, Black Tusk, Twisted Pixel, Big Park (they still exist yeah?), Turn 10 are just very quickly off the top of my head. I know there's more.

I don't mind that Microsoft's studios are diversified between AAA, Kinect and Arcade stuff. It's a healthy way to be. Then you can fluff up with 3rd party exclusives, why not? If they have the cash, and this is business afterall. Microsoft aren't out to play nice with anyone. They're out there to give you games that make you want to buy their console. If they can do that with both 1st and 3rd party exclusives, why wouldn't they?

 

[Radec]

Quinton McLeod
Please understand.

More fitting.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well this page has been a joy to read lol .
Quinton has to be trolling with some of the points he making .

 

[SlowRevolution]

:lol this thread has taken a hilarious turn

thank you quinton

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

This is all symptomatic of a company who desperately wanted to push next gen well into 2014, in order to get one last pay day from the 360 via 2013 Christmas sales, but have had their hands forced by Sony.

 

[Quinton McLeod]

You do realise that the CPU will cache data before its needed right?. and that it can quite easily switch execution contexts when one needs to wait on a slow read right?.

also wrt to latency.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50546526
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50538672&postcount=1602
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50535324&postcount=1598
http://www.elpida.com/pdfs/E1864E10.pdf

This is what I got from your own sources:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50501082&postcount=1517

And Durante has more weight than the Junior Members you're quoting.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Not surprising that Microsoft's games aren't up to snuff. Some felt it was a smart move this gen that they bought exclusives as opposed to investing in internal studios like Sony. Now they're trying to launch a new system and the quality apparently isn't there, much like it wasn't there with the Kinect launch.

I really want to see this Microsoft fall flat on their face next gen. They're certainly not the same Microsoft that launched the 360. The Microsoft that seemed passionate about gaming.

 

[KidBeta]

This is what I got from your own sources:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=50501082&postcount=1517

And Durante has more weight than the Junior Members you're quoting.

Im still not seeing numbers from your sources.

Show me the numbers mate, or stop spouting crap.

the GDDR5 PDF shows that you can have GDDR5 with the exact same latency as DDR3

Did you read it? can you even read?, I'm doubting it atm.

 

[A good poster]

And Durante has more weight than the Junior Members you're quoting.

wow