I know. All of it is quite clearly killing all the studios he cares about. Not to mention severely undermining their ability to overpay hollywood talent for voice-overs.
PA Report - The Xbox One will kill used games, that's good
- Thread starter hardcastlemccormick
- Start date
So you're telling me that these points:
1) New games are constantly streaming into the shelves to take the spotlight;
2) Marketing efforts disappearing short after the game is released, making the game invisible after pre-launch;
3) Most people who are interested enough in a game to pay full price for it making their purchase shortly after release;
...have no effect at all and that most games actually do have constant customer interest long after release and the sole reason sales drop off is the availability of slightly cheaper used copies?
Did you know that the a very similar effect happens in the AppStore, where there are no used games at all?
XxHANNERxX
Banned
I can still sell my games to gamestop or through some online function that they have not detailed just yet, based on information that we have so far anyway.
Lending the game is allowing someone to play it for free, and the developers get nothing from that. I believe that they should, so I see no problem with making them pay for their own copy. I don't see a problem with someone wanting to get paid for the work that they did. Don't you like to get paid for going to work everyday? Or would it be okay for your boss to lend you out to his buddies business, and he doesn't have to pay you for the work you do for his friend?
The same thing is happening to music and movies. Physical sale (and thus resale) of all those things are in decline. We can check back in 5-10 years, and see where things are.
Yep. Get back to me.
Preposterous analogy. A more accurate one would be: I purchase an art print from an artist. I've paid them for the work that they performed and the copy that is in my possession. If others want to enjoy it, they'll have to pay the artist to view it. Fuck that.
They should make better games that make people want to pay full price and keep them. Wow, a natural method of handling things.
and depends on the games industry marketing money for his livelihood.
I didn't say any closed because of only this. There are carcasses of publishers like THQ to look at. I would love to know how this had an effect on them. I did say that they could prosper more and transfer that to the consumer because of this.
Pretty sure Gamestop doesn't have the exclusive rights right now to sell used games.
I know I've bought old games from the mom and pop shop in my neighborhood, from friends, from individual sellers on ebay and from amazon marketplace sellers...
Ace Harding
Member
OK. I guess I don't fully understand the secondary market.
I dunno. I'm still OK with it, because I think it would be healthier for the industry. I just keep seeing the argument that "used game sales contribute to new game sales," but that's exactly what the article is proposing.
The real argument is that games are too expensive I guess. I just don't see how that changes in the current environment.
I also think people aren't giving Sony and Microsoft enough credit for digital (and retail) game sales. There were a bunch of great, full retail games on sale on the GoD store for like $3-$5 a few months ago. I bought Forza Horizon new direct from Microsoft for $15 like a month after release. Games go on sale all the time. GoD games are getting better priced as the market evens things out. It's not happening overnight, but saying we haven't seen game prices go down is just wrong.
the more money you have, the more you want. it's trite, but true
Captain Tuttle
Member
I agree, I really think this is going to bite them in the ass and I almost can't wait to see it happen.
What makes you think that the person borrowing the game would have bought it if they could not borrow it?
turnbuckle
Member
Also, people are more likely to take a chance on a new game if they know it won't have a value of $0 should they decide they don't like it / don't want it anymore.
I can count the number of times I've traded in games on 1 finger. I can count the number of times I've let friends borrow a game on dozens. If a game is designed so I can't do the latter there's a good chance I won't buy that game; if the console is designed that way there's a good chance I won't buy that console.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
I'm too tired and hungover to respond to this calmly and rationally right now but holy fucking false equivalency.
I find it weird that people say "a majority of Xbox One buyers aren't gonna know about this DRM or care" when it's going to hit them in the face some point. Whether that's walking into a Gamestop with the XBone section being 3x smaller than the PS4 new/used section, or trying to lend/borrow a game, or wondering if they can buy an older title used.
It will happen, and I think a few months after the XBone release it's gonna get extremely ugly.
brettchalupa
Member
The biggest problem that I have with this article is that Ben Kuchera is making sweeping statements with no evidence to back it up. It is just his hopes and dreams for a pipe dream future.
That's just it, they are in a poor position to talk about the woes of the industry, diminishing profits and all the rest, these are the guys that are making the most money and actually causing the pain and lack of sales and profits for the smaller fish. It's just greed empowered excuse making to further profits and put consumers in more precarious positions, with even less value proposition and control.
I know you're kidding but what car manufacturers have done is really smart. Rather than blocking used car sales (which would be idiotic and impossible) they've embraced them:
- "Our car has the best resale value in it's class" for example
- Or all the mfrs that offer certified pre-owned cars at a slight premium but with added warranties.
- Or just ads about how long people drive their cars
Obviously cars are more of an investment than games, but the gaming industry is leaving money on the table by staying out of/discouraging a healthy used market.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Looooool. Should I get paid twice (or 1.5) times for doing no additional work on a single copy of a product I've released?
False equivalency at its finest. Games are not 'work', they are a product with tangible deadlines.
famousmortimer
Banned
Not that Microsoft or Sony have to be responsible for dumb parents everywhere...
But how many dumb kids do you think are going to still let friends borrow the game and give their login info, possibly with their parents CC attached to it?
Customer service is about to get a lot more busy with compromised log in calls.
But how many dumb kids do you think are going to still let friends borrow the game and give their login info, possibly with their parents CC attached to it?
Customer service is about to get a lot more busy with compromised log in calls.
Yeah, obviously no more 2nd hand market means less piracy (wat). Because draconian DRM (which I naively believed was one of the main motivations behind piracy).
They did invest $750K in Polygon's documentary that was made to promote Polygon's personality.I guess these guys feel a bit of loyalty to the company that got their name and platform out there.
Neuromancer
Member
THQ didn't die because of used games.
Seriously dude you must work for Microsoft (or their PR firm). Otherwise none of this makes sense.
D
Deleted member 20415
Unconfirmed Member
Games are cheaper now then they have ever been in the history of games. If you're 30+, you'd remember a time when $80+ games weren't uncommon. Now you have $5, $1, free games all over the place, and games are going on sale constantly. Add in that a $60 game today is cheaper because of inflation than a $60 game of even 3 years ago.
NOW... take away market pressure factors and close the system and you'll see that vertical pricing is terrible for consumers.
Now a $60 game has little outside pressure to drop - it will drop, if people don't buy, but that won't be quickly. They'll drop it to $55 and you'll think you're getting a steal, so there will be a spike in sales, then maybe a couple more months down the road it will go to $50 and people will jump on again - you sustain higher levels of revenue - and the consumer ends up spending more in the end.
Anyone that thinks they are getting cheaper games out of this obviously doesn't remember the In-game advertising bullshit promises of the 1990s. Magazines and game makers kept saying "In game advertising will make games cheaper!" That shit was a straight up LIE.
And with this, I must laugh at this whole article.
Do they even realize how popular the used gaming market is (especially in Japan), especially when more & more people trade in their games for newer ones?
All this is going to do is have people not shell out a bunch of money for newer titles in which they won't determine whatever they're good or bad, & that'll definitely hurt publishers/developers in the long run, including Microsoft themselves for trying to use this anti-consumer feature. Not everyone can afford to shell out $60 on a brand new title, especially in a bad economy like this almost everywhere around the world.
And do they seriously believe that prices will get lower due to no used games? LOL, fat chance. Publishers/Developers will easily be able to charge more than $60 for games due to no competition from the used gaming market. The used market itself is what keeps them in check from going overboard.
Do they even realize how popular the used gaming market is (especially in Japan), especially when more & more people trade in their games for newer ones?
All this is going to do is have people not shell out a bunch of money for newer titles in which they won't determine whatever they're good or bad, & that'll definitely hurt publishers/developers in the long run, including Microsoft themselves for trying to use this anti-consumer feature. Not everyone can afford to shell out $60 on a brand new title, especially in a bad economy like this almost everywhere around the world.
And do they seriously believe that prices will get lower due to no used games? LOL, fat chance. Publishers/Developers will easily be able to charge more than $60 for games due to no competition from the used gaming market. The used market itself is what keeps them in check from going overboard.
It happened around the time they did this comic
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/10/16
Their tone toward MS and the Xbox changed almost completely.
I still enjoyed PA many years after that, but they kept on defending other anti-consumer positions over the years that i stopped reading their site.
UberTag
Member
Jason's a fine journalist and a capable writer... and Kotaku as a whole have been delivering far better coverage than we've been accustomed to as gamers.
His only real problem is that he has a persecution complex when it comes to the site and has a tendency to get overly defensive about it. I get myself stupidly worked up about things at times, too... so I can sympathize. It's a perfectly human reaction when you're passionate about your work.
I've gone on record that Call of Duty should be priced at $100. Minimum. Other AAA-titles should be priced accordingly. And games shouldn't be marked down to 75% of their retail cost in under 3 months.
Make THIS the new reality without all of this anti-consumer bullshit. That I would welcome.
I also don't want any overpriced celebrities in my games. Let the dedicated voice talent work for cheap. They are great at what they do and awesome, AWESOME people.
I don't think used games had much of an effect on why giving massively larger budgets to sequels for games that saw solid success like de Blob, uDraw, and Darksiders led to their downfall; giving massively larger budgets to sequels for games that saw solid successes that are now being expected to sell much more than they possibly are able to is what killed them.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
If I make a chair, I don't get paid every time someone different sits on it. That's not how it works.
It doesn't matter who owns the game; the initial cost of the title covers the entire lifetime of all players that game will eventually belong to.
EDIT: Try googling the word "library" sometime, it might make your head explode.
RedNumberFive
Banned
He has been making little to no sense since the Xbone was revealed.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
This ridiculous rationale could be applied to every possible media: books, music, movies, etc. Yet I only ever hear about game publishers/developers complaining about it. What makes them so damn special? Wouldn't Stephen King, The Beatles, and Stephen Spielberg like a cut of all the secondhand sales of their products?
Regarding games being too expensive, haven't the price of games barely changed? I remember paying $60-$70+ for cartridges decades ago. I'm not really sure I'm sympathetic to the idea that games are overpriced. I'm surprised they aren't more when the costs of games has barely changed and budgets have gone up.
They sure as heck would, but the medium is different today, so there was no realistic way to enforce that on a physical product that stood on its own.
They sure as heck would, but the medium is different today, so there was no realistic way to enforce that on a physical product that stood on its own.
StopMakingSense
Member
SolidSnakex
Member
I remember during the PSone days I loaned a friend WWF The Arcade Game for Tekken 1. At that point i'd never even heard of Tekken. But I instantly fell in love with the game and ended up buying every entry in the series after that.
I don't think they're too big on learning since they've had almost a decade to learn.
Someone buys an artwork or music CD. Does anyone who looks at said artwork or listens to a song on the CD then owe the artist money?
Interesting perspective, but I'm not ok with ms being the market intermediary. GameStop faces competition which keeps their prices honest. Having Microsoft in charge of setting prices is a little unnerving.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
Where did I say they had no effect? It's not a situation with one problem. But to say shelves and shelves of used games can't possibly be taking away first hand sales is a stretch. Maybe if the second hand market didn't exist publishers would be more inclined to do their own price cuts because they're not forced in to a retail war with second hand copies of their own product.
That's another thing. Many proponents of XBone are claiming that only little kids are trading and lending games, so who gives a shit? Well, those kids are the next generation of gamers/consumers. If I hadn't been loaned games as a kid, I wouldn't be spending thousands of dollars per year on brand new games and equipment now.
XxHANNERxX
Banned
You guys can live on in righteous anger all you want. I feel that there is no problem with anything that I am hearing....SO FAR. If that changes, sure I may rant and rave about it. The problem we have here is that no one really knows the whole story, MS should have been more prepared, and are already decrying this as the coming of Satan himself. I just believe that people should be paid for their work. That is not anti-consumer in my book. Thats the way it should always be. IMHO at least.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
They already are paid for their work. As much as every other industry in the entire world. Games are not special.
So if I lend you my car, you should have to repurchase it?
Neuromancer
Member
Killing used games isn't good, not for consumers and not for the companies in the long run who depend on consumers having the money/credit to buy their expensive products. What a stupid article. I expected more from the Kooch.
The same argument can be made for use games which enable people to buy more games.
cascardian
Member
I agree with all the sentiments expressed in here so far. There are a whole lot of assumptions in that article with little market evidence or analysis to back it up. I advise the author to look up the modern mainstream economic concepts of market equilibrium and what it means for pricing in the digital age. Hint: It's not a simple supply/demand function anymore, especially not for products whose supply is theoretically infinite.
His simplistic trickle-down hypothesis is also preposterous in the face of how AAA oligopolies work and goes against a whole lot of real evidence we've had since at least the dot-com bubble. Supply-side economics at its finest, ladies and gents. We've seen how well that works out for the consumer.
He also completely ignores the multiple other reasons that consumers may be more wary in their buying habits. I think someone here suggested it first, but he should really watch more of Sterling's videos.
His simplistic trickle-down hypothesis is also preposterous in the face of how AAA oligopolies work and goes against a whole lot of real evidence we've had since at least the dot-com bubble. Supply-side economics at its finest, ladies and gents. We've seen how well that works out for the consumer.
He also completely ignores the multiple other reasons that consumers may be more wary in their buying habits. I think someone here suggested it first, but he should really watch more of Sterling's videos.