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[Taker666]

So you CAN sell Used Games and play Used Games.

Another negative to scratch off from the list.

System sounds fair and perfect.

Except the people you sell to have a monopoly in buying...so they'll pay you peanuts as you have no other choice.


It's like forcing you to take a loan from a loanshark with a 500% interest rate...

...because you're no longer allowed to borrow money from a friend at 0% interest or a bank at 5% interest.

 

[Bad Robot Surgeon]

Seems like a reasonable way to deal with it, but it's still unnecessarily complicated and restrictive all because of the shitty DRM scheme they're using to begin with.

 

[Impeccable]

Do you know this?

And that isn't even the issue. I'm sure I read recently the Alan Wake games are dirt cheap on Xbox Live right now. So clearly there's nothing preventing it from happening.

The net gain being gambled on here will lead to less money for developers and publishers which is the whole point of this. If they give usSteam sales they are going to get OVER 50% less money on a new purchase. And millions of gamers WILL wait until games are cheaper.

So what is the benefit to anyone but Microsoft, let us ignore the spin of helping out poor little publishers.

 

[Walshicus]

Woo, Microsoft astroturfers (and water_wendi, but s/he hates Steam so that's expected) trying to deflect criticism of their shit system by making fallacious arguments about Steam.

They're not false arguments. The only real argument that's put forward to differentiate is that sometimes you're able to buy Steam games a lot cheaper than through other channels.

 

[Diffense]

Typical of Microsoft to invest a lot of effort in building anti-consumer software. How do installations and activations improve the game-playing experience? The primary "improvements" to XBone involve ways to extract more money from gamers while adding inconvenience. It's essentially a more powerful iteration of XBox 360 with bundled Kinect and a whole lot of "do not want". The rest of the features support Microsoft's ambition to win the living room by venturing heavily into non-gaming territory.

This console is built for Microsoft. It's a Trojan Horse. I guess they believe that the XBox brand is finally compelling enough for people to buy XBone even if there is relatively little in it for them.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Could it be possible that they have a friends list where anyone on your friends list are kind of linked together so you could lend them a game and they could play it as long as they are on your friends list?

I don't know but if they worked it like that, sure.

What they've said is that as long as your account resides on another Xbone then it can play your game. That won't cut it.

This doesn't even account for selling my game to you. You will be charged the fee of which is the full price of the game!

 

[dragonelite]

Games on Demand which is Microsoft's Digital Game service has imo mostly unreasonable prices, especially on older games. I am not all that familiar with Steam, but it sounds more reasonable and fair to me. For example, I can get an X360 game for $20 online, Gamestop or practically anywhere I chose brand new or even cheaper used. On Games on Demand, it could be $30 or even $40. I bought COD2 from Circuit City for $20 brand new years ago and on Games On Demand, it was $40. I do not see anything changing with their digital service, especially if games could increase in price.

So you buy the from the cheapest source. If it is cheaper on the marketplace buy there.
If it is cheaper in retail or pre owned get it there. All that matters is the code that needs to be locked on your account. If your in a stable internet country that is why i think microsoft should increase the offline timer or have no timer but you need to disk to be present. [/B]
I think this is the system sony will go for. Just have the disk in the device. Which would be the perfect solution for offline play. Or when you go online again and somebody else has your disk that person will have the license to play it. And you lost yours.

If sony does the same system for pre owned games and let you give away your disk and license to play sony will win big time next gen. At least in the consumer friendly and performance boxes. It would please people like me that are used to digital copies and it will please people that want physical copies.

Could it be possible that they have a friends list where anyone on your friends list are kind of linked together so you could lend them a game and they could play it as long as they are on your friends list?

Could also be a solution you pick a friend from your friend list and pick the amount of time they will own the game.

 

[hooijdonk17]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.


Yes.. i know that Valve has a complete stranglehold on almost all of PC gaming due to their free DRM. Your point?

Granted Steam is not perfect, but if you tried to put it on a scale with the Xbone, it would outright tip over and fall. It would be like weighing a blue whale against a mosquito.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

The net gain being gambled on here will lead to less money for developers and publishers which is the whole point of this. If they give usSteam sales they are going to get OVER 50% less money on a new purchase. And millions of gamers WILL wait until games are cheaper.

So what is the benefit to anyone but Microsoft, let us ignore the spin of helping out poor little publishers.

The point of sales is to boost revenues when they fall. The only reason you lower a price is so you can make more money. It's not that complicated. Sales don't exist to make you happy, be it on Steam or consoles.

 

[Con_Smith]

Steam sales are overrated. The sale prices are good but usually when i check.. like right this second..


.. you can find better prices in retail stores.

So the Xbone gives greater leeway with used games so its an abomination but Valve gives consumers less rights and its heaven on earth? Whatever.

edit:

Bioshock PC price for those that champion the low price DD future.

Yeah but as of today I can lend that copy of Bioshock to a friend and not have them charged to play it, or have it deactivated on my account. Yeah, I can't play it because I don't have the disk, but the fact that it's my copy and I can do what I want with it at this moment in time is still a viable option. That may not be the case going forward and is a red flag in my eyes no matter what company decides to take this practice. Steam ain't the be all end all but to me the fact they do sales at a greater frequency and allow outside sales such as the recent Amazon one as a valid alternative to their system just isn't as offensive to me than what a closed platform that limits my consumer rights could provide. With Steam it's an option, with MS or Sony you are stuck. So continue to complain about steam but on PC you can take any route to play what you like through another companies store front but console gamers being told to bend over and play nice and we'll give you another halo for complying with our bullshit don't sit right with me sir.

 

[gamergirly]

Seems like a reasonable way to deal with it, but it's still unnecessarily complicated and restrictive all because of the shitty DRM scheme they're using to begin with.

There's nothing that says the re-sold game won't cost full price(it was quoted being so). Additionally, there's no eBay type market for getting new games for $15 less than retail 3 weeks out potentially. These "private" sellers can set the price at ANYTHING. There's nothing reasonable with that. What's the point in trying to resell a game on Xbone? You might as well buy it and never plan on selling it. This also discourages those from picking up a game within the first few months of its release because there are many who simply won't pay $59.96 for a new title. Not to mention, those who simply can't afford to be buying 5 $59.96 games within 3 months during the October-December timeframe.

 

[Salaadin]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.


Yes.. i know that Valve has a complete stranglehold on almost all of PC gaming due to their free DRM. Your point?

My image link was broken.
My point is that Bioshock Infinite is on sale on GMG right now for 40.00 if you use a coupon code....so your point that Steam sucks because BI is cheaper on consoles right now makes even less sense.

 

[Plinko]

The fact that so many people are willing to give up their rights as a consumer (e.g., ability to sell privately) just to show their loyalty to a company that is outright showing you they could care less about you as an individual consumer is absolutely mind-boggling.

 

[Raven77]

I wonder how abused this system can be?



Does anyone else not like the idea of GAMESTOP of all places having access to a system that can essentially go in and un-link games from your account?

What if this system is compromised and millions of customers "keys" or registrations to games are wiped and lost?



I mean, I'm not totally against this idea, but it just seems like it has lots and lots potential major issues.

 

[water_wendi]

Granted Steam is not perfect, but if you tried to put it on a scale with the Xbone, it would outright tip over and fall. It would be like weighing a blue whale against a mosquito.

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

 

[megabytecr]

MS covered
Retailer covered
Pub covered
Consumer half fucked

Great job. Great pro consumer machine

 

[GQman2121]

I just love how the CEO of Gamestop, and numerous MS reps couldn't answer this question this week. But then, almost out of nowhere, we have a response outlining the entire system, sans the pricing distribution details. Shit all stinks and is going to get messy.

RIP buy/sell/trade thread

 

[eighty(one)]

So what? Who lends £40 discs to get scratched to fuck anyway?

If I have a game, lets say Xenoblade (I don't) - and I've beaten it but want to sell it to a friend or Craigslist - I should be able to. I shouldn't have to accept GameStops "preowned" offer/pricing as the only acceptable value.

So basically, I give a fuck.

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

On Steam, the games are often dirt cheap (way cheaper), than on console anyways. Maybe? Me guessing here lol. That's what I gather from the popularity of Steam sales and bundles.

 

[Walshicus]

So £5 less than a full price game? And retailers get only 10% of that? What is the point of this system then if it fucks both consumers and retailers?

No, I don't think that's how it works.

Scenario 1: I take a disc to a friend's house and they install it. We play on my account, but then I go home and take the disc with me and sign out of my account. My friend then pays this fee (say £35) to unlock the game, but at the end of it both of us now have a copy.

Scenario 2: I take a disc to GAME and trade it to them for £25. They sell it for £35, taking £3.50 in profit with the remainder being distributed between the publisher and Microsoft.

 

[MasLegio]

For new page

If you work in this business segment (within the EU) and have access to actual valid documentation regarding this please contact me.

I want to report this illegal practice (price collusion) to the Euopean Commission.

 

[Delusibeta]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.

From the perspective of the retailer, this system is shite. If MCV's article is true, the minimum price they're allowed to charge for a used game is £35 (context: full price games currently sell for about £40-£45 at retail and can be found for about £5-£10 less online), and of that the retailer can only keep £3.50. In addition, trade in values are going to get hammered: a £40 game will at most be able to be traded in for £8.50, and that's assuming the retailer doesn't want any money. This is a dumb trade-in price, and subsequently I can't see anyone trading in their XbOne games in the first place, never mind the cost of implementing Azure to their pre-owned system, which will eat up any profits.

Only insane retailers will sign up for this. (So I guess that means GAME has already signed on the dotted line).

Oh, and I forgot to mention that this is thoroughly illegal (under price fixing laws).

 

[LiquidMetal14]

The fact that so many people are willing to give up their rights as a consumer (e.g., ability to sell privately) just to show their loyalty to a company that is outright showing you they could care less about you as an individual consumer is absolutely mind-boggling.

People need to say that to themselves more and let it sink in.

No amount of games are worth that.

 

[CambriaRising]

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

Because there are physical discs involved that previously could be played on any console, anywhere, with any log in, at any time without any barriers.

 

[MikeE21286]

I just love how the CEO of Gamestop, and numerous MS reps couldn't answer this question this week. But then, almost out of nowhere, we have a response outlining the entire system, sans the pricing distribution details. Shit all stinks and is going to get messy.

RIP buy/sell/trade thread

That's the biggest tragedy

My NeoGAF Gold status will be useless!!

 

[Malio]

Convoluted, unneccesary, and very controling and CERTAINLY not in my best interest. Will be completely skipping the xbone.

 

[M3d10n]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publ...of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137



Pretty much exactly what I and a couple of other posters were suggesting in another thread. Not code based though by the sounds of it.

Pretty much as predicted. Since they don't mention codes (and codes haven't been mentioned anywhere since the unveil), it's more and more likely the discs have unique watermarks/barcodes on them read by the disc drive itself.

 

[Fox Mulder]

The net gain being gambled on here will lead to less money for developers and publishers which is the whole point of this. If they give usSteam sales they are going to get OVER 50% less money on a new purchase. And millions of gamers WILL wait until games are cheaper.

So what is the benefit to anyone but Microsoft, let us ignore the spin of helping out poor little publishers.

The publishers are probably the ones that pushed for this shit.

There's a tighter control on second hand sales and they'll probably even be able to deactivate games when they wish, like when a sequel comes out. EA already shuts off servers, it's the next step really.

 

[GQman2121]

The fact that so many people are willing to give up their rights as a consumer (e.g., ability to sell privately) just to show their loyalty to a company that is outright showing you they could care less about you as an individual consumer is absolutely mind-boggling.

It really is. And I think it because those people don't exactly realize how much this is going to effect what and how they play.

 

[Joel Was Right]

No, I don't think that's how it works.

Scenario 1: I take a disc to a friend's house and they install it. We play on my account, but then I go home and take the disc with me and sign out of my account. My friend then pays this fee (say £35) to unlock the game, but at the end of it both of us now have a copy.

Scenario 2: I take a disc to GAME and trade it to them for £25. They sell it for £35, taking £3.50 in profit with the remainder being distributed between the publisher and Microsoft.

That's the problem for me. I would have to pay £35 for a pre-owned game from the retailer, whereas I could just pay £25 from the seller using the current model.

 

[Delusibeta]

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

Because the pre-owned PC market was killed off long before Valve got round to using Steam on anything other than their own games.

 

[crazygambit]

But that does sound like I can't sell games privately. That is still shitty.

Also lending a game to a friend is still impossible.

Plus you can be sure none of those pre approved retailers exist in third world countries.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.


Yes.. i know that Valve has a complete stranglehold on almost all of PC gaming due to their free DRM. Your point?

Please explain to me why you don't understand the difference in not being able to give someone your digital game and not being able to give someone a disc that until this generation was able to be inserted into any console and played? People aren't sitting around this gen complaining that they can't let their friend borrow Castle Crashers. Know why? Because digital media isn't something that is transferred between people. Its always been tied to an account because its the only way you retain ownership to it. A huge reason I still buy physical media is because its easily handed over to a friend.

It's like asking why people would be mad
that they can't let their friend borrow a physical copy of Great Gatsby because they couldn't let their friend borrow the Kindle version. Its a nonsensical argument.

So by taking away all of the benefits of physical media you're essentially limiting me to the restrictions of a digital download anyway. So if I'm going to be behind those restrictions I might as well be behind them on a platform that does it better like Steam.

 

[USC-fan]

no I volunteer for humans for common sense and reason, not work for Knee Jerk Reaction & Paranoia Inc. like some here.


Some of the crap here the last few days is ridiculous including your repeating of DRM Trojan horse

ITs 100% right. You need to work harder because I dont believe a single word.

THe WHOLE REASON FOR THE CLOUD IS DRM! You said no way man its not a trojan horse, now we have retailer that say the have to be tied into this cloud system to sell used games. I FUCKING CALLED IT!

Cloud compute is PR spin for CLOUD DRM! I just fell bad for the first party dev that has to shoe horn this "feature" into their game to try and prove this CLOUD DRM SYSTEM is so amazing.

 

[Walshicus]

Because there are physical discs involved that previously could be played on any console, anywhere, with any log in, at any time without any barriers.

And that used to be the case on PCs too. You'd be hard pressed to find many PC games that allow that now.

 

[Felix Lighter]

never mind.

 

[Dead Man]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.


Yes.. i know that Valve has a complete stranglehold on almost all of PC gaming due to their free DRM. Your point?

Equating it to steam is not very useful though. Judge it on it's merits, not compared to on DD service on an open system. Steam is not to blame for the demise of consumer rights in PC software, that happened long before Steam had any influence. What we are left with is Steam being one of the less horrible sources for new software.

I know you hate it, but comparisons between Xbone and Steam don't really help the conversation. If you just want to go hunt out hypocrisy, that is different.

 

[Delusibeta]

And that used to be the case on PCs too. You'd be hard pressed to find many PC games that allow that now.

www.gog.com

 

[Xanonano]

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

Because you have to log in every 24 hours to prove you still own the game and haven't traded it in.

 

[cyberheater]

Unconfirmed reports on ConsoleDeals.co.uk suggest that retail’s slice will be as little as ten per cent. That’s a significant cut from what it has become accustomed to from pre-owned sales and more in line with what they would receive from the sale of a new game – hence, the value of the pre-owned market to the retailer is effectively destroyed.

These same unconfirmed reports also suggest that the activation cost for consumers buying or borrowing pre-owned software will be £35.

UPDATE: Many readers are asking whether the £35 will be additional cost on top of the price of buying the game. No, we believe that the £35 figure – which is not our number, incidentally – would cover the entire transaction. If correct this would leave retail with a cut per sale of around £3.50.

If true then MS can go an fuck themselves.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Cool. Thread title updated.

 

[Owzers]

If Microsoft addresses renting games/gamefly i'll possibly buy the system down the road, but unless Sony matches this anti-consumer agenda, PS4 will be the only console i buy this year.

 

[Darryl]

i am a champion of consumers rights. If you oppose the Xbone on these grounds but think Steam is the best thing to happen to PCs ever, its in my opinion you are completely delusional.


Yes.. i know that Valve has a complete stranglehold on almost all of PC gaming due to their free DRM. Your point?

steam is OK because it is like an app. if you didn't want it, you don't have to install it. it exists within a competitive market place so it has outside factors weighing in on it. you can like the service or not, you know it can't get too out of hand because of this.

the xbox one is a completely different scenario. all they have to do is convince consumers to buy and they're locked in to the ecosystem, no competitors. it's draconian. the console is basically a windows 8 OS so why not allow us to install competing market places? i don't know how you can defend this

 

[Subxero]

I think this whole situation is garbage and I don't do used or trades. Basically any sort of rights we have to our physical purchases are being taken away. Anyone who thinks games are going to be cheaper or the used game market will be the same is kidding themselves. You are going to get less and pay more. The market is going to be completely closed controlled by MS policies. When they decide to stop support for the X1 they can turn the authentication servers off effectively deleting your collection hoping to force you to move to the next platform. Everything about this system is anti consumer. I hope there is some legal issues with these practices because there should be. Unfortunately in the US our law makers bend over for corporations regardless of how it affect the consumers.

I believe in supporting developers, which I do by buying a lot games. I don't believe they are entitled to continually leech off every sale. It's just greedy plain and simple and it's being done on the back of honest customers/fans. The whole purpose of this is to wring every penny out of they can. The publishers are going to be surprised when they don't rake in the money the hoped for. When people see they are getting screwed (more than before) on trades they will stop trading. When they stop trading they stop buying causing overall sales to drop. Maybe not as far as current sales but it will be noticeable. If we allow them to do this by supporting products and services designed to trample all over us.

So what's next blurays, books, music, electronics, appliances, cars? Because all these corporations are going to take notice of this. If these polices are blindly supported you can bet they will all get in line for their perpetual cuts of the products they make. This is the beginning of a slippery slope.

I'm 36 and I enjoy (collecting) games and have owned every console back to NES, it has been a life long hobby. I was so looking forward to enjoying the next generation of games with my family and friends. Everything I have seen so far makes me sad and really has put a damper on all the things I have so looked forward to. There is no one that looks forward to E3 and new hardware and software each year then I do. So you can cry hyperbole and try to convince yourselves it not that bad. It is and it's not going to get any better.

For everyone that likes to go but, but Steam. PC gaming is a much more open platform. I can buy games from a gambit of retailers who are all competing for my money, often times for ridiculous prices. I can also move all my purchases to new/upgraded and multiple machines. In addition being able to travel without having to authorize my purchases daily. All that aside I still have many issues concerns with the service myself. One being that newer games from big publishers tend to stay full retail for long periods of time. Many times I have found these titles cheaper elsewhere. What people may not realize is these prices are set by the publishers not Valve. You can be sure this same issue will persist on the next gen platforms that support these DRM scemes.

 

[bob_arctor]

The fact that so many people are willing to give up their rights as a consumer (e.g., ability to sell privately) just to show their loyalty to a company that is outright showing you they could care less about you as an individual consumer is absolutely mind-boggling.

It's a little crazy, isn't it? MS is banking on the uncontrollable urge of the masses to consume anything new to overwhelm basic common sense. I hope their betting wrong but I don't think so unfortunately.

 

[slayzz]

Why is the used game issue worse on the Xbone than it is on Steam?

We have no problem with Steam and XBLA game because it's digital game, we understand you can't resell it back.

However We have a problem with Xbox's physical media having all these restriction.

 

[BeEatNU]

nice if publishers get a cut.

 

[Kimawolf]

Bullcrap to the highest degree, and I will not buy their system at all. They can bury this crap next to the Kin.

 

[water_wendi]

Equating it to steam is not very useful though. Judge it on it's merits, not compared to on DD service on an open system. Steam is not to blame for the demise of consumer rights in PC software, that happened long before Steam had any influence. What we are left with is Steam being one of the less horrible sources for new software.

I know you hate it, but comparisons between Xbone and Steam don't really help the conversation. If you just want to go hunt out hypocrisy, that is different.

Here is what my first post said:

"So right now the Xbone gives more rights than Steam? i didnt expect that."

And its 100% true and factual. Unlike Steam, you can sell your Xbone games. Its still completely shit because MS dictates how and where you sell but its still more than you get with modern PC gaming.


edit:

And Steam is still present in physical copies. Resident Evil 6, Bioshock Infinite, Metro Last Light, Tomb Raider.. all of these have the Steam limitation even if you bought it in a physical store.

 

[Con_Smith]

Do you know this?

And that isn't even the issue. I'm sure I read recently the Alan Wake games are dirt cheap on Xbox Live right now. So clearly there's nothing preventing it from happening.

Alan wake has been 30 dollars for the past 2 years. It wasn't even an option during the big sale they had a few months ago or during the Microsoft Studios sale they had right after that. Prices stick on Microsoft forever and sales are a flash in the pan on that system. Even then you usually have to be a Gold Member to access a sale price anyway and half the time it's either the same shit they have been pushing for months, dlc packs, or cosmetic shit no one but the hardest of fanboys would really care about anyway. Defending Microsoft on how they handle DD pricing is beyond dumb especially when people on Playstation get free games and actual gaming perks for being a plus member and I just get crumbs and the opportunity to play and talk with my friends online.

It's starting to look like this generation has left some people conditioned to getting fucked or something.

 

[Dipswitch]

Why the hell would Gamestop and their ilk buy into this? Not only do they need to manage a new connected POS contraption, but they also stand to lose a substantial amount of money in the process. There's very little upside for them as far as I can see.

Now odds are this system is coming one way or the other, and they may be faced with the decision to either contnue to receive some income from used games or none at all in the future.

Short term though, they've still got substantial clout in the industry. Refusing to carry XBox One hardware and software in their retails stores could make things quite painful for MS.