#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
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The only way that can happen is if publishers will allow some form of online trade in system & start competing with gamestop, amazon etc. If the middleman business is so lucrative and such a scam, feel free to step in and compete.
 
bishoptl said:
Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
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blade%20gallery%2010.jpg
 
bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
Click to expand...
This is a really good post.
 
werks said:
Ok the reason gamestop can make so much money off used games is because a seller agrees to a low price and a buyer agrees to a high price. They both do so knowing full well that there are alternatives that will net the seller more money & cost the buyer less money, but they agree to the shitty value because gamestop provides convenience. That is their business model.

Are publishers going to set up brick & mortar shops, or maybe even an online trade in system? Because thats the only way they are entitled to a second cut of the profit, along with the associated business risks that comes with the model. No. They want none of the risk gamestop is taking but want to benefit from the system.

The game industry is making the MPAA & RIAA look like saints. Because the MPAA & RIAA aren't fighting second hand sales but piracy, and consumers still rejected their bullshit. But we are supposed to be okay the most restrictive form of DRM because the game industry can't get it's shit together?

Jaffe is living in a world where math doesn't exist & publishers can get a second cut of the profits without the cost coming down on the consumer. Show me a single way where I can sell a game private party, have the publisher get a cut & not effect how much I can sell a game for. It doesn't fucking exist & Jaffe can fuck off.

The PC industry is thrown in as a no used game allowed model. Bullshit. Right now I can buy a physical copy of Borderlands 2, play the game & resell it. The PC industry adapted by making the digital sales competitive, not by disallowing used game sales.

The option to kill the used game industry exists right now in all consoles, its PSN, XBOX Marketplace & Wii Shop. But they have to provide a better value for consumers, which involves competition. Instead they want to provide a physical copy while taking away all the benefits of buying a disc.

The game industry wants to monopolize & regulate prices, when they should be trying to compete.
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jAgOT5v.gif
 
bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
Click to expand...

This right here some publisher have unrealistic development and marketing budgets for some games .
Then some games take years to come out and instead of putting there house in order they find all sort of things to blame .
Next gen should be publisher trying to get the consumers to buy more games on DD but what we have here is publisher trying to take away consumer rights of physical media .
 
I would love it if Gamestop stopped getting exclusive pre-order DLC. And instead those DLC codes were just included in ALL new copies of games.
 
That suggestion before about setting up a competing system was actually an interesting idea.

If publishers dislike that GameStop et al. have made a very lucrative business out of organised used trade, then they really should set up a competitive alternative that offers consumers more favorable terms of trade. It could actually end up more lucrative than trying to muscle into GameStop's revenues through DRM.

bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
Click to expand...
A great balanced view, imo.
 
werks said:
The only way that can happen is if publishers will allow some form of online trade in system & start competing with gamestop, amazon etc. If the middleman business is so lucrative and such a scam, feel free to step in and compete.
Click to expand...
I've always pondered this very idea. But I'm no business man. Why haven't they tried to compete in this market exactly? What in the world is stopping them?
 
bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
Click to expand...
Bravo!
 
werks said:
The PC industry adapted by making the digital sales competitive, not by disallowing used game sales.
Click to expand...

The core of the entire problem.

FWIW I don't buy used games, I buy older games for cheap from outside my region. This method of buying games is also under threat. Not because a better alternative has come along, but because it will just be straight up disallowed.
 
So whats next ?
How de we continue from here, how are we going to fight even harder ?

I have a feeling it will die till e3 in this rate.
We need to make this subject discussed all day all over the gaming world.

Did ign even mentioned this ?
This subject is so important it should make a new headline every hour in major news sites.

This thing needs to grow not only for ps4 sake but to teach the industry that consumers make the rules.
 
gundamkyoukai said:
This right here some publisher have unrealistic development and marketing budgets for some games .
Then some games take years to come out and instead of putting there house in order they find all sort of things to blame .
Next gen should be publisher trying to get the consumers to buy more games on DD but what we have here is publisher trying to take away consumer rights of physical media .
Click to expand...

The problem is they have been trying to sell DD at full MSRP for the last 8 years with very slow price declines if at all. Since that did not work they are going to try and take away the used game market so they can sell that DD at full MSRP. They are so stubborn about selling games at 59.99 it has blinded them to the reality around them. Gamers see very few games worth 59.99. Hence they buy it and trade/sell it in making that game really cost 30-50 dollars depending on when they sell it and how. Want to sell gamers on DD and reduce the used market lower the god damn price games period. The less it costs the less likely people are to get rid of it since it won't be worth the hassle to do so. It will also get people to buy more games especially non-AAA games. It still amazes me every single publisher thinks basically every game they sell is 59.99 dollar game and then wonder why there is such a large used market. The reality is there is a lot of cheap entertainment out there and publishers need to adapt to that.
 
bishoptl said:
I'm a consumer too, and I'm no hypocrite. I've sold old games in order to buy new ones, picked up a used game and ended up becoming a fan of the developer, and wouldn't dream of trying to keep anyone who's enjoyed my games from trading it in towards something else. Now - is it annoying as hell to see a retailer or reseller attempt to sell me a used game for 5 bucks less than new? Absolutely. Would I like to see some of that money go back to the developer/publisher/financial stakeholders? Sure! I'd be lying if I said I didn't.

Unless or until this industry can figure out a way to make that happen without passing additional costs over to the customer, however, the status quo - consumer rights intact - should remain. Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice-skate uphill.
Click to expand...

<3. I really appreciate your honesty and sorry for putting you on the spot.

Sometimes i think the unrealistic expectations of pubs and the inflated devs costs have brought down and will bring down plenty of talented developers.
 
The best advice that I would give to the OP, and to supporters of this cause, is to stay focused and to keep the message strong, consistent, and clear. Don't dilute this campaign by trying to convert it into something more general and widespread that tries to cover the entire industry....especially when so much leg work has already been done for this campaign specifically (trending topics, hash tags, website coverage, feedback from top executives)

The forum for this debate/discussion has been opened so leave it up to others if they want to expand this campaign. Keep this campaign strong and others (corporations and potential supporters) will recognize it and take notice.
 
bishoptl said:
Used games and lack of DRM aren't the reason behind developers going under. It's the homogenization of design, the approval of unrealistic development and marketing budgets for B-tier titles competing in the AAA-tier space. Know who you are and spend accordingly, instead of chasing a very small slice of the pie that's already committed to the one or two behemoths in that particular genre, whether it be FPS, MOBA, what have you.
Click to expand...

This, a hundred times this. Consumers do not exist to feed the egos of devs who just have to have a "AAA" title on their resume. Adding expensive cinematics, voiceovers, and a huge marketing budget to a B-tier game doesn't make it AAA, it puts you out of business. As someone who's had access to expense info down to the translation cost of a single instruction pamphlet into one language, it's aggravating to see good profitable B-tier games balloon into company-destroying AAA ones.

Videogames are trivial. They do not need to exist. It they can't figure out how to survive without trampling consumer rights, they can all die.
 
bigboss370 said:
its really weird to me why publishers would gift Gamestop all these exclusives and at the same time hate them for profiting off used games.
Click to expand...

Because they need them for now but instead of trying to lure the consumers into buying more games on DD by making them cheaper , free stuff etc etc on consoles .
They want to take way consumer rights of physical media , publishers want all the goodness of the DD and use market without doing any work or losing anything .

quest said:
The problem is they have been trying to sell DD at full MSRP for the last 8 years with very slow price declines if at all. Since that did not work they are going to try and take away the used game market so they can sell that DD at full MSRP. They are so stubborn about selling games at 59.99 it has blinded them to the reality around them. Gamers see very few games worth 59.99. Hence they buy it and trade/sell it in making that game really cost 30-50 dollars depending on when they sell it and how. Want to sell gamers on DD and reduce the used market lower the god damn price games period. The less it costs the less likely people are to get rid of it since it won't be worth the hassle to do so. It will also get people to buy more games especially non-AAA games. It still amazes me every single publisher thinks basically every game they sell is 59.99 dollar game and then wonder why there is such a large used market. The reality is there is a lot of cheap entertainment out there and publishers need to adapt to that.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% .
 
Theman2k said:
So whats next ?
How de we continue from here, how are we going to fight even harder ?

I have a feeling it will die till e3 in this rate.
We need to make this subject discussed all day all over the gaming world.

Did ign even mentioned this ?
This subject is so important it should make a new headline every hour in major news sites.

This thing needs to grow not only for ps4 sake but to teach the industry that consumers make the rules.
Click to expand...

do another push tomorrow. Sony know whats up, but the more the better. And if big sites pick up then great, but I think a steady stream of tweets is best.
 
Forceatowulf said:
I've always pondered this very idea. But I'm no business man. Why haven't they tried to compete in this market exactly? What in the world is stopping them?
Click to expand...
Guessing its because they don't want to sell for cheaper than full price. They don't want to compete with the aftermarket, they'd rather get rid of it altogether. They don't want any competition going on with a full priced game...that's an extra $10-30 that they could've made.

Another reason would probably be because of the headache of trying to make sure deals go through accordingly (physical media has no scratches and is shipped off). I guess they could setup the ability to transfer activation codes somehow though.
 
Orpheus Telos said:
It definitely feels like it is. I'm only getting a few tweets a minute on the feed. I'm hoping that Europe can bail us out because one day of this is nowhere near enough.
Click to expand...

Does this even need to be stretched out?

A lot of people took part and we got the message to Sony.
We won't get full closure until E3 at the earliest.

Mission successful IMO.
 
Talking with my parents earlier about this was such a struggle. By the end of the conversation they both said "that's just not right". Of course they don't really fully understand digital distribution or anything really relating like software license/EULA. They are rather low-tech but manage. However they do understand how the used market operates and "don't see how video games should be any different". I'm not exactly sure of it's fair to include input from people that are not familiar with the industry or even technology for that matter. It was interesting hearing what they think about it nonetheless.
 
Ardenyal said:
Does this even need to be stretched out?

A lot of people took part and we got the message to Sony.
We won't get full closure until E3 at the earliest.

Mission successful IMO.
Click to expand...

Keeping it going is a good way to show that the internet isn't just hopping onto some cause of the day to feel like activists before dropping it as soon as it starts getting attention. Yeah we got some attention today, but even if it's in smaller numbers, having the campaign keep going shows how serious people are about it.
 
Ardenyal said:
Does this even need to be stretched out?

A lot of people took part and we got the message to Sony.
We won't get full closure until E3 at the earliest.

Mission successful IMO.
Click to expand...

I don't think it needs to be stretched out that long, but definitely for more than one day. Right now you could just simply write this off as everyone jumping on the bandwagon for the day. I don't think they would do that but it could be possible. I just think that by lasting for at least a few more days it shows a stronger commitment to the cause.
 
SlowRevolution said:
Keeping it going is a good way to show that the internet isn't just hopping onto some cause of the day to feel like activists before dropping it as soon as it starts getting attention. Yeah we got some attention today, but even if it's in smaller numbers, having the campaign keep going shows how serious people are about it.
Click to expand...

Sure, I agree. But maybe continue the campaign in the form of discussion instead of occupying peoples twitter feeds. I'm not sure how twitter works but I would imagine it's a bit of an inconvenience getting hundreds of twitter messages an hour for days on end.
 
Ardenyal said:
Sure, I agree. But maybe continue the campaign in the form of discussion instead of occupying peoples twitter feeds. I'm not sure how twitter works but I would imagine it's a bit of an inconvenience getting hundreds of twitter messages an hour for days on end.
Click to expand...

So is dealing with DRM in every single game for however long this gen will last. More so.
 
Ardenyal said:
Sure, I agree. But maybe continue the campaign in the form of discussion instead of occupying peoples twitter feeds. I'm not sure how twitter works but I would imagine it's a bit of an inconvenience getting hundreds of twitter messages an hour for days on end.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I think the site that got posted earlier is a nice start to a real conversation. The hashtags are doing what they were set out to, but having a step two aside from linking to a thread on here could be a good way to keep this from fizzling out after 2/3 days.

Attaching real people and linking to their stuff could make it seem more personal, like if Angry Joe and other popular YT'ers made a 5-10 minute video on the issue. It would help get their viewers on board too, and spread the hashtag.
 
Yea, just start gabbing a real discussion that involves ppl in the industry. Day 1 has opened the forum for discussion. Now it's time to point out real issues, outline solutions, and weigh in on compromises for both sides. Jade got in on the discussion part, that's big.

Keep going and I could even see gametrailers having a bonus round, with pachter, focused on the subject of DRM with shoutouts to GAF. Keeping discussion going is the best way to keep ppl interested and keep retention rates high.
 
baekshi said:
I realized it takes a while, about a 30 seconds to minutes apart.

Tried this, what suppose to be instant:
http://monitter.com/

If you load trends and along with PS4NoDRM, its not moving fast as those.
Click to expand...

I posted the tweet with the link 3 hours ago. It just never showed up anywhere but my page for some reason even though I used the hashtags. I don't think I've seen a single tweet with a link to it from someone else either.
 
Darkmakaimura said:
Eh, don't trust Twitter. My recent tweet also linking the website didn't even show up in the #PS4noDRM or #PS4USEDGAMES for some reason when searching for them.
Click to expand...

Was it an old tweet, that you had to go back in time quite some time for? You don't have full access to old tweets from Twitters search function.

(Also, make sure you view all tweets, not just real time.)
 
Werks and bishoptl are absolutely spot on with those posts. I'd buy you guys the beverage of your choice right now if I could.
 
Gori said:
Was it an old tweet, that you had to go back in time quite some time for? You don't have full access to old tweets from Twitters search function.

(Also, make sure you view all tweets, not just real time.)
Click to expand...
No, I was checked about a few seconds after I posted and as of now, it's been 30 minutes or so and it still hasn't showed up so....
 
One more day I would say. Tomorrow may be flat but it atleast has a chance to grab more Americans back at work and maybe eurogamer, ign, joystiq and maybe some mainstream press.

Or its done. Either way I think the main point, to be heard, has happened.

Definitely going to sleep now. Maybe.

With more of eurogaf waking up this has a chance to have another big uptick. They were phenomenal yesterday.
 
famousmortimer said:
One more day I would say. Tomorrow may be flat but it atleast has a chance to grab more Americans back at work and maybe eurogamer, ign, joystiq and maybe some mainstream press.

Or its done. Either way I think the main point, to be heard, has happened.

Definitely going to sleep now. Maybe.

With more of eurogaf waking up this has a chance to have another big uptick. They were phenomenal yesterday.
Click to expand...

bro just go to sleep already lol, you've been at this waay too long for your own health :P
 
These kinds of things are why I joined NeoGAF, regardless of the outcome I love what everyone here has done and am so proud of this community.
 
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