Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS: Info Collection - Dojo, Mega Man and Trailer! 2014!

You know who they need to make better?

Yoshi

Three games and they still haven't fix that horrible shield of his.

At least, give him back that 56% damage Flutter kick from 64 again.

Yes, I know that's not happening

I'd say something about Link as well, but I don't really play him in Smash
 
I know the "Sonic Cycle" had a jpeg demonstrating all the different permutations and steps of it. Has anyone done the same for the "Smash Cycle"?

While not placed in actual cycle form the old thread did at least list some of the more prominent points in the pre E3 cycle.

- Wishlists
- Clones
- Cutting Characters
- Pokemon Gen wars/rep relevancy
- Ridley is too big
- Brawl vs Melee and/or casual play vs competitive
- 3rd Party reps
- Geno Sucks

Now this may have taken an alteration following the actual reveal and the influx of more posters and thus more stops on the cycle, if someone ever takes a crack at a cycle image I demand the Gaf logo spliced with the SSB series one in there somewhere.
 
Link:
-Speed him up significantly, brawl link was too damn slow.
-Either get rid of chargeable up-B or let him store the charge like other characters can.
-Make him boomerang as good as it was in Melee/ get rid of gale boomerang.

Buff links down smash
Give him toon links superior up smash
 
I like the concept of FLUDD but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe allowing him to use other nozzles would help? Like maybe if it's fully charged then his Up+B gets a blast of water from the turbo nozzle that lets him go higher.
 
I would increase the knockback range and power of Mario and maybe increase his recovery range. He has a good moveset, just not enough power.



Hahaha...no.

Why not buff the water power of the F.L.U.D.D, and allow him to use the second mode of the F.L.U.D.D as a recovery? (Also, it could probably function as a spike with the water pouring straight down.)

And of course buff his power, but I figure we can start by giving the F.L.U.D.D some of the functionality of the mario tornado. :P
 
Half-serious.
...

I get what you're saying here, but that's tying outside relevancy to gameplay.

However, the debate has never been about gameplay. The question whether or not they are a pure gameplay clone has always been, at best, a distraction to the main issue. The main issue is whether or not people are happy with the characters as they are. Disliking their current form in the series for a gameplay reason is no more or less valid than doing so for outside reasons. People have different priorities and preferences in this matter, as this thread clearly shows. Every reason that causes these characters to be dismissed as clones is pertinent.

In short, the debate boils down to: "Am I happy with these characters?" I answer that question with a no.
 
You know who they need to make better?

Yoshi

Three games and they still haven't fix that horrible shield of his.

At least, give him back that 56% damage Flutter kick from 64 again.

Yes, I know that's not happening

I'd say something about Link as well, but I don't really play him in Smash

Yoshi & Kirby's down airs in Smash 64 were fucking amazing tools. Nothing like instilling the fear of God into someone with tons of short hopping into those. Was always great chaining multiple instances together and hearing the in game crowd go nuts as a result.
 
While not placed in actual cycle form the old thread did at least list some of the more prominent points in the pre E3 cycle.

- Wishlists
- Clones
- Cutting Characters
- Pokemon Gen wars/rep relevancy
- Ridley is too big
- Brawl vs Melee and/or casual play vs competitive
- 3rd Party reps
- Geno Sucks

Now this may have taken an alteration following the actual reveal and the influx of more posters and thus more stops on the cycle, if someone ever takes a crack at a cycle image I demand the Gaf logo spliced with the SSB series one in there somewhere.

What, that's awful.
 
In short, the debate boils down to: "Am I happy with these characters?" I answer that question with a no.

I'm perfectly fine with the opinion of "I don't like character X" or whatever.
My point is that Wolf hardly qualifies as a clone. Out of all the characters that could be called clones. Even Luigi is closer to a clone than Wolf because Luigi shares several A moves with Mario as well (on top of having the same set of specials; at least up until Brawl where FLUDD replaced Mario Tornado which was given to him as an aerial attack).

The only thing I can say about Wolf is that I would much rather have had a clone of a different character, instead of a third Star Fox character. Wigglytuff? Pichu? Riolu? Toon Zelda/Tetra? Black Shadow? Waluigi? Dixie Kong? Dark Samus? Daisy? Louie? A lot of characters that they could have cloned.

I'd rather have Wolf (with the unique moveset he has) instead of Falco and instead have a non Star Fox clone on top of that.

What, that's awful.

Would you want Geno if he ended up being a Zelda clone?
 
However, the debate has never been about gameplay. The question whether or not they are a pure gameplay clone has always been, at best, a distraction to the main issue. The main issue is whether or not people are happy with the characters as they are. Disliking their current form in the series for a gameplay reason is no more or less valid than doing so for outside reasons. People have different priorities and preferences in this matter, as this thread clearly shows. Every reason that causes these characters to be dismissed as clones is pertinent.

In short, the debate boils down to: "Am I happy with these characters?" I answer that question with a no.

The only thing I can say about Wolf is that I would much rather have had a clone of a different character, instead of a third Star Fox character. Wigglytuff? Pichu? Riolu? Toon Zelda/Tetra? Black Shadow? Waluigi? Dixie Kong? Dark Samus? Daisy? Louie? A lot of characters that they could have cloned.
 
I like the concept of FLUDD but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe allowing him to use other nozzles would help? Like maybe if it's fully charged then his Up+B gets a blast of water from the turbo nozzle that lets him go higher.
Why not buff the water power of the F.L.U.D.D, and allow him to use the second mode of the F.L.U.D.D as a recovery? (Also, it could probably function as a spike with the water pouring straight down.)

And of course buff his power, but I figure we can start by giving the F.L.U.D.D some of the functionality of the mario tornado. :P

I'm thinking that the FLUDD can get buffed I guess and make it so that when you use it in the air, you use the rocket nozzle, but on ground, it uses the regular nozzle. It really works good as a way to counter other players' recoveries.
 
Yoshi & Kirby's down airs in Smash 64 were fucking amazing tools. Nothing like instilling the fear of God into someone with tons of short hopping into those. Was always great chaining multiple instances together and hearing the in game crowd go nuts as a result.

Breaking a full shield with those moves is the most satisfying thing ever in the series to me besides landing a Falcon Punch and nailing someone with the Home-run Bat.
 
What's so great about Geno?

Nostalgia

Geno.jpg
 
I'm thinking that the FLUDD can get buffed I guess and make it so that when you use it in the air, you use the rocket nozzle, but on ground, it uses the regular nozzle. It really works good as a way to counter other players' recoveries.

Or if you have a fully charged FLUDD and do the Super Jump Punch, it turns into a Super Rocket Jump Punch that goes twice as high but depletes your water.

EDIT: Man, the Wolf clone discussion again? It's been 5 years now. You'd think being able to play the game would put that discussion to rest.
 
Why would this be the case? Geno actually has moveset potential.

Because in order to beef up the roster, they decide to include some fan favorites as clones because they don't have the time/resources for more, and Geno happens to be one of them, so they give him Zelda's moveset.
 
Why would this be the case? Geno actually has moveset potential.



Probably best original character from SMRPG, and good moveset potential. Also best SE rep for Smash.

Best character in a game that didn't have that many great characters

(PS Croco > *)

And yeah, I'll scoff at "best SE rep for Smash". How about that franchise that Nintendo has a publishing deal for called Dragon Quest? The franchise that has a history of franchise crossovers with Nintendo?
 
Because in order to beef up the roster, they decide to include some fan favorites as clones because they don't have the time/resources for more, and Geno happens to be one of them, so they give him Zelda's moveset.

Add him as DLC, take their time with him. They can actually do this now.

Best character in a game that didn't have that many great characters

(PS Croco > *)

And yeah, I'll scoff at "best SE rep for Smash". How about that franchise that Nintendo has a publishing deal for called Dragon Quest? The franchise that has a history of franchise crossovers with Nintendo?

SMRPG had a lot of fun characters man.

I always forget about Dragon Quest. That could be fun as well, though I have a bias towards Geno. Wasn't there a song from SMRPG in Brawl?

Also, what if Little Mac was a clone of Marth?

Jesus now you're just being an idiot. Not that Red Arremer's comparison wasn't on the same level of stupid.
 
I'd love to see Geno. However, only if there's a brand new Nintendo/Square collaboration, with a new Mario RPG on Wii U where the character appears again. Otherwise, what's the point? It's been almost 20 years, and he's only ever appeared in the one game. Only people like us know/remember him. :(
 
If SE gets a rep it'll be a Slime.

Final Fantasy has nothing that would fit unless you're willing to settle for a Moogle or a Chocobo or something.
 
Add him as DLC, take their time with him. They can actually do this now.



SMRPG had a lot of fun characters man.

I always forget about Dragon Quest. That could be fun as well, though I have a bias towards Geno. Wasn't there a song from SMRPG in Brawl?

It was a planned song, yeah; the forest maze one. It was cut in the end, however.

But yeah, Slime for SSB4.
 
Been playing Brawl all day and noticed Samus' Charge Shot is very low on knockback for such a damage-inducing move. :/ Hopefully she gets buffed.
 
It was a planned song, yeah; the forest maze one. It was cut in the end, however.

No, that's just a rumor/fan speculation.

There's a list of songs in the files, some of which got cut. One of the Mario-related songs was named "Mushroom Forest", and a LOT of fans thought that was the SMRPG song (so much so that people took it for granted).
However, there's at least 2 more other possibilities - one Mario Party game had a track like that, and there's also Toadwood Forest in one of the Mario & Luigi games, both of which would also be feasible selections.

There's a "Lost Tracks" selection, but those are entirely made up by fans.
 
What could he possibly do? I've never played the game before, so I don't know crap about Geno.
Geno is basically a mini robot. He has kamehameha lazers, rocket fists, saws and etc. You should play the game btw, it's a lot of fun and you can have Mario, Bowser and Peach in your party at the same time!

I'd love to see Geno. However, only if there's a brand new Nintendo/Square collaboration, with a new Mario RPG on Wii U where the character appears again. Otherwise, what's the point? It's been almost 20 years, and he's only ever appeared in the one game. Only people like us know/remember him. :(

Geno actually had a cameo in a Mario and Luigi rpg, it was a very small one though. And like previously stated, there was one planned song from SMRPG to be included in Brawl but it was cut. Finally there was a Nintendo and SE colab, it was Fortune Street. Unfortunately, Geno didn't appear as far as I know in that game.

No, don't change the topic. Play that scenario with me.
The only way for you to get Geno is as a clone of Zelda (or whomever, doesn't matter). Would you still want him?

The problem is that one of the arguments for clones, the first ones in melee, was that because they wanted to fill the roster they added them and they were only clones because they didn't have time to make them unique. With Brawl, I don't know what happened but there were clones again, but the Wii wasn't all that great with DLC and the like. This time, as has been proven, the Wii U could handle DLC and the 3DS could handle it as well. So it's not really changing the topic as it's a valid point towards the creation of clones in the first place.

But since you insist on your scenario. If Geno could be included but he had to be a clone of somebody, I'd rather they just make him an alt costume of that character. To me it'd be the same thing. He was going to have the same moves as them anyways so it wouldn't matter to me. If that can't be possible then don't put him in. If you're not going to give the character the respect it deserves, then I'd just rather see them either as an alt costume, assist trophy or something else besides a clone.
 
Or if you have a fully charged FLUDD and do the Super Jump Punch, it turns into a Super Rocket Jump Punch that goes twice as high but depletes your water.

I like where this is going.

So what if, in the case of Mario, Link, and Samus, their charge abilities could be held and used in their other moves?

Let's say Link gets his old spin attack power. In ADDITION to that, when he holds his spin attack, he charges his skyward strike. (It'll charge in the same amount of time as in SS, and it'll be held for as long as it can be held in SS.)

For the next X seconds, ALL of his sword attacks are buffed. Weak sword attacks, (such as his tilt A moves), will get a projectile. In the case of strong sword attacks, (in this case, his smashes and his spin attack), will all get a slightly increased range.

In addition, he could also use it in conjunction with his arrows to temporarily get increased power, speed, piercing, and a "wind" effect that blows everyone away from the path of the arrow as it passes by them.

EDIT: For those who don't understand, I'm basically suggesting that we turn link into Order Sol.
 
Geno is basically a mini robot. He has kamehameha lazers, rocket fists, saws and etc. You should play the game btw, it's a lot of fun and you can have Mario, Bowser and Peach in your party at the same time!



Geno actually had a cameo in a Mario and Luigi rpg, it was a very small one though. And like previously stated, there was one planned song from SMRPG to be included in Brawl but it was cut. Finally there was a Nintendo and SE colab, it was Fortune Street. Unfortunately, Geno didn't appear as far as I know in that game.



The problem is that one of the arguments for clones, the first ones in melee, was that because they wanted to fill the roster they added them and they were only clones because they didn't have time to make them unique. With Brawl, I don't know what happened but there were clones again, but the Wii wasn't all that great with DLC and the like. This time, as has been proven, the Wii U could handle DLC and the 3DS could handle it as well. So it's not really changing the topic as it's a valid point towards the creation of clones in the first place.

But since you insist on your scenario. If Geno could be included but he had to be a clone of somebody, I'd rather they just make him an alt costume of that character. To me it'd be the same thing. He was going to have the same moves as them anyways so it wouldn't matter to me. If that can't be possible then don't put him in. If you're not going to give the character the respect it deserves, then I'd just rather see them either as an alt costume, assist trophy or something else besides a clone.

If they wanted to fill the roster as much as possible at launch?
 
The Smash Cycle generally goes:

Wishlists
Ridley is too damn big
Geno sucks
Clone discussion

There are other things discussed in-between, but those are the four main talking points.
Also Beef, no need for your douchebag condescending tone.
But you make it so easy with posts like this:
See, it's not that I don't know what a clone is. It's that you and Beef and some others, have a different definition of it than I do. To you, a clone is what you said. To me a clone is somebody like falco and wolf comparing to fox. All three have the reflecting shield, all three have the side dash, all three take out a pistol and shoot a laser as their standard special, and all three have the up dash. The differing properties of each of these things, whether Falco kicks his reflector or not, whether Wolf goes slightly diagonal on a side dash or not, whether or not his pistol shot has stun or not. Those things, those move properties to me and to many others don't matter. Now when I say many others I just mean that, if some guy went to play smash and instead of having Falco have his own spot on the roster, he'd just be an alt costume of fox. He'd still have the blaster, the shield, the two dashes, it's just that he'd be "choosing" Fox. The thing that irritates me is that I don't want characters like Falco or Wolf that have these minimal differences. You want them in the game? Fine, just give them completely different moves. COMPLETELY different. No shield, no pistol, no dashes. Do something else, do something different. If you can't do that, then make him an alt costume. "Clones" are boring, they offer nothing new to somebody who won't be looking to get into competitive smash.



Jesus, your ability to twist my words is amazing. Never once have I stated that I was superior, this is you putting words in my mouth, yet again.

Never once did I claim I was better because I don't play smash competitively. Elitism is a person like yourself and like Beef. Oh we play on a higher level than you, sure must suck to be stuck down there with all the other idiots huh? Guess you can just wallow in your ignorance. You don't understand the fine details of a rushdown, mix-up, of counting how many seconds of super armor or invincibility you get from doing this one move. You're telling me you don't see the arrogance in your own goddamn statement? Are you serious?

To an ordinary person none of that matters. They don't want to become some smash champion. Their choice will come down to whether or not they like the character aesthetically or from their personality or by how they are portrayed in the games of their own franchises.

Let me put it another way. Let's take a game where there is a stick figure, the simplest rendition of a character. No then, this fighting game has 20 characters in it's roster. They are all stick figures, the same stick figure to be exact. Their names are just numbers so 1 through 20. These last two things are just to ensure that no aesthetic preferences come into play. Now all of these stick figures have the same moves. All of them a kick, a punch, an uppercut, and a sweep. The only difference is that, with stick figure number 5 the uppercut hits multiple times so you get that bit of damage more but otherwise it's the same exact animation and everything. With stick figure number 13 the kick goes at an 100 degree angle instead of a 90 degree angle. All stick figures have this. Minor differences in the properties of their moves, but they all have the exact same moves.

Are these stick figures clones? Not according to the FGC. Why not? Because of their different move properties.

Now give this same fighter to a casual fighting game player. Do you honestly think they'll care whether or not the walking speed of stick figure 18 is slower than that of stick figure 3? No they won't. They'll quickly get bored with it because, taking out the whole of the aesthetic part of it. They all do, the exact same thing but with slight tweaks. And these exact tweaks are what I and many others don't care about in regards to the "clones" in smash. So make new characters, keep Falco and Wolf and whoever else. Just make them do different things, not simply have their moves have different properties.
It's been said already, but your posts come from a place of ignorance and a refusal to accept things that you don't like. You've been acting like a real jackass to be perfectly honest when people have been giving you examples of why you are misinformed. Perfectly calm, rational arguments and examples that you immediately chuck out the window only because you want things your way and nobody else's. So if you start acting like a spoiled brat, don't be shocked to find that people aren't going to treat you with maturity. You need to stop talking for people, and you also need to stop presenting, at best, anecdotal evidence that "people wouldn't care if clones were gone" or whatever it was you said to try and pass your opinion as "fact."
Just one of the reasons why I hate smash threads. It amazes me how quickly I get pissed off in this thread and Smash seems to be one of two or so series that can make me get this angry so quickly.
Well then good news: nobody is forcing you to post and/or respond to anything in the threads! Feel free to leave or, barring that, put some people on the ol' ignore list. Here, I'll do you a solid and give you a link to put me on yours.
 
The question about how to buff Mario got me thinking about an interesting rework they could do to the little plumber - what about an entirely power up based character? He starts as regular Mario. Performing some move charges his coin meter. When his meter is half full, Burn half a meter to change into Super Mario, who would obviously be the same except for stronger attacks. Burn a full meter to select among 3 choices - Fire Mario, Cape Mario (I'd like Raccoon, but the Cape has more history in Smash), or Random Chance (which would open up a whole host of Mario's - Frog, Shoe, Bee, Cat, Mini, etc.). Maybe add in a meter burn for star Mario in there, as well.
 
So I just noticed something in the Developer Direct. People probably already noticed it, but I don't remember reading about it.

pit7su1x.gif


His bow is split in two in the beginning, but is then connected after the attack.
 
I feel like Ridley is basically a lock as a newcomer. There really isn't a more significant first party character (besides Lil' Mac) out there and he is so requested that Sakurai can't ignore it anymore.
 
Top Bottom