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[faceless007]

There's a really weird disconnect here that I just don't get. People are expending quite a bit of rhetorical effort to say things like this: "I'm not victim blaming, I'm just pointing out what the victim did wrong and what she should have done differently if she didn't want to be raped. But I'm not blaming her, honest!"

It's completely incoherent.

 

[hgarrett54]

Yeah, clearly they had no other choice but to rape her. All her fault

Spoiler

Extreme sarcasm

 

[wsoxfan1214]

I'm arguing the fact that there are improvements we can all make to lower these crimes from happening. For instance, by these dudes getting charged for rape it should show others that messing with someone sexually, even if they are "asking for it", just doesn't fly. I'm hoping other teenage boys learn from their mistake.

What I was arguing is that what's easier to do to make sure this whole event didn't happen? The girl could've just stayed away from that crowd, not drank underage, or whatever. But again, like I've been saying, there are no ways to stop people from being people. She was illegally drinking underage to begin with, right? She was just being a teenager. The same with these guys who didn't go to the party to actively look for girls to rape. No, they were just being horny guys who probably were hanging out with horny girls and then one thing led to another and then a wrong turn was taken.

In the end, all I'm saying is that there are ways to prevent crimes from happening before they happen. I'm not blaming the victim at all. What I'm saying is that there will always be crime so potential victims need to be vigilant knowing that this sorta stuff happens. Though I doubt the girl thought she would get "raped" by people she knew, and I also doubt the guys thought of it as "rape" too. These people, kids really, were just too young to even know what was going on... which again... goes to my argument that you can't stop people from being people.

Stop there. Why is rape in quotes? It was rape. Period. are you implying it wasn't?

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Well duh. Obviously it's not a great idea to get blackout drunk, no shit Sherlock.

Shockingly though people don't plan for it. It's pretty rare to go out planning to get so drunk you can't find your way home, it still happens though. People don't just decide 'well I'm pretty merry right now, time for a couple more shots so I can start puking my guts up'. Who here hasn't been accidentally completely worse for wear at some point?

I don't even see what being drunk has to do with this at all. The only difference her being drunk makes to the whole thing is it gives the rapists a pathetic excuse to justify their actions to themselves, 'she didn't say no'.

My point, Watson, is that it always seems to be downplayed. Yeah, when you start out drinking its bound to happen but people know their limit after a while some choose to go all the way anyway. And I'm not talking about it as some excuse for the rapists, that shit isn't excusable. Just in general, know your limit and how much you can hang with.

 

[Dude Abides]

A different example then. There used to be a PSA on UK television advising people to be careful when leaving the pub and calling a taxi because their large-screen smartphones lit up and made them a target for mugging. I'm sure the makers of the PSA thought that muggers were scum.

My point is that we do tell people to stay aware of their surroundings and to be mindful of the fact that some people are fucking scum. Yes, it would be ideal if we could just do away with the scum, but we can't.

I think there is an important distinction between giving advice before something bad happens and saying "should have done X" after something bad has already happened.

The former is reasonable advice. The latter just seems pointless.

 

[SpectreFire]

People aren't getting this.

NOTHING the girl could possibly do would make the rape okay or justified.

She could walk around at the party completely naked and completely wasted and that STILL does not justify the people raping her. Rape is NEVER the victim's fault under ANY circumstances. The responsibility is on the rapists not to rape her. Never ever ever is it on the victim. It isn't fucking "faux outrage".

There is no reason whatsoever to EVER call a rape victim's actions into question because they are not fault for it. Period.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Is rape ever justified? No. Should you always have an expectation of people having your best interests in mind? Absolutely not.

At the end of the day, there are situations where chances of rape increases dramatically, and it's up to the individuals themselves to make their own decisions about whether or not those risks are worth taking. When you put yourself in unsafe situations, you shouldn't have any expectations of safety. If I decide to walk by myself down a sketchy neighbourhood decked out in bling and holding handfuls of money, I shouldn't have any expectations of my safety. Should people not rob me in that situation? Absolutely. Does that mean anything to those people? Absolutely not. Rape functions in a similar fashion. When you go to let's say a frat party by yourself with a bunch of complete strangers and drink yourself silly, you have made the express decision of taking on whatever risk that environment entails, whether it's rape, a shitty prank, or consensual sex that you'll regret in the morning. Yes, people shouldn't be doing awful things to you, but people will always be people and there will always be some that will take their own needs before you. Expecting them not to do awful things to you is the wrong expectation to be making.

Basically what I'm saying is, people are awful, and your safety in public varies constantly depending on your environment and the people you surround yourself with. You should absolutely never put any sort of expectation that people will respect your rights, because that is how bad things happen to you. People act in the interests of themselves, not others. We are all responsible for taking care of our own safety. When you put yourself in dangerous situations, expect dangerous outcomes.

 

[out0v0rder]

i tried asking this in another thread but it died..
If two people are blackout drunk and engage in copulation activity, should they both go to jail? neither of them were in any condition to give consent, right?

 

[Measley]

One time I was driving to the store, and some kid wandered into the middle of the street. I guess I shouldn't have put my brakes on and honked at the kid. I should have just nailed him with my car. Yeah, he should have been aware of his surrounding area. He should have known better.

Afterwards the kid called me an asshole. I guess I should have jumped out of the car and beat the 12 year old into a pulp for disrespecting an adult.

Yeah, if only we could all live in Serena's world.

 

[RedShift]

If I don't lock my doors, my insurance won't pay out. They expect me to take reasonable precautions even though I'm sure they are in agreement with me that people shouldn't rob houses.

This argument is such bullshit.

If they caught the guy who robbed your house, would people argue his sentence should be reduced because your house wasn't locked or your stuff was really appealing? Fuck no. That's what Serena is saying though, they should get let off easy.

Not to mention, what are reasonable precautions for women to avoid rape? Never drink alcohol? Don't go to parties? Don't associate with men at all? Wear a Burka? Sounds like a load of fun.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

no, you need to explain how it is that. Or someone else explain it.

Because you're looking at what the victim did, pointing out the "mistakes," and then highlighting how you don't (or wouldn't have) made them. The entire point of even contributing such useless information is solely to point out how you wouldn't/didn't do what they did, and you haven't been raped yet.

There's nothing to that beyond "look at how prepped/smart I am."

When the thread eventually gets to the point where people begin bringing up how futile arguing for the prevention of rape is because it'll never go away/we'll never achieve utopia, and people point out how even the best prepared people can become victims, such a standpoint as the one you're protecting becomes even MORE useless, because you're acknowledging that all this "helpful advice" you're dispensing isn't anywhere near as helpful as trying to change the way people think about rape.

Pointing out all the things the victim could have done to protect herself after the fact isn't helpful. It's hubris.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Oh my god. Not even going to bother.

 

[SmokyDave]

I think there is an important distinction between giving advice before something bad happens and saying "should have done X" after something bad has already happened.

Indeed. I suspect people re-iterate advice that they want others to listen to though, rather than expecting any given victim to retroactively apply the suggested measures. That or people just reacting to the whole 'don't tell good people to take precautions, tell bad people to stop being bad' point of view.

This argument is such bullshit.

If they caught the guy who robbed your house, would people argue his sentence should be reduced because your house wasn't locked or your stuff was really appealing? Fuck no. That's what Serena is saying though, they should get let off easy.

Not to mention, what are reasonable precautions for women to avoid rape? Never drink alcohol? Don't go to parties? Don't associate with men at all? Wear a Burka? Sounds like a load of fun.

I was replying directly to Fiction, not endorsing what Serena said. It wasn't an argument either, it was a statement of fact.

 

[royalan]

Even women who do everything "right" (in quotes because that makes me feel disgusting) get raped, and after they're still told the same kinds of things. If she stayed out until 23:00, well, she should have known to go home at 22:00! She shouldn't have gone out on a Friday night, she should have been studying! There's no end to the bullshit of "the rape victim should have done this" and "the rape victim should have done that."

Women already know this, because it's beaten into us 24/7. Nobody saying what victims should have done is doing anything that actually helps victims or prevents rapists from raping.

Not true at all. And not just women, a lot of people aren't aware of the harsh realities of the world, because they've only been raised on unrealistic platitudes.

Just because bad things can still happen to the most cautious people is not an excuse to not inform those in your care of the fact that life isn't fair, and to give them the tools they need to cope with that unfortunate fact.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Because I used murder as an example, I am saying that murder and rape are the only crimes?

Take robbery for instance. Someone breaks into your house and steals all your shit. People are going to say "Man that sucks, I am sorry, I hope they catch the guy." Not "Dude, you should have had an alarm and bars and a dog, what did you expect?"

You said and i quote

The problem is that this is the only crime we tend to turn the focus on the victim for.

Also lets just assume that by "focus" you do not mean "blame" because no one is "blaming" the victim.

I then gave you an example of other crime were the focus is also on the victim.

Someone said this already but what if you had a gold watch and you wore it into a dirt poor neighborhood and you so happen to be mugged, do you think that you could have taken some precaution to make sure that does not happen? does that however mean that the blame is on you, absolutely not.

So i don't know why we are arguing, your point of Rape being the "only" crime were the so called 'focus' is on the victim has been disproved.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I think there is an important distinction between giving advice before something bad happens and saying "should have done X" after something bad has already happened.

The former is reasonable advice. The latter just seems pointless.

We're not giving advice to either party in this situation. We our voicing our opinions on a matter of public record.

It's not a good look to tell rapists not to rape after the deed has been done either.

 

[metalslimer]

Everything was okay until she said the sentence was unfair. Anyone actually defending that isn't worth my time. Serena is a straight up dumbass.

 

[jtb]

We're not giving advice to either party in this situation. We our voicing our opinions on a matter of public record.

It's not a good look to tell rapists not to rape after the deed has been done either.

It's not about telling rapists "don't rape." It's about telling everybody "don't rape."

do you know what rapists were before they raped somebody? an ordinary non-rapist citizen.

 

[cubicle47b]

Because I used murder as an example, I am saying that murder and rape are the only crimes?

Take robbery for instance. Someone breaks into your house and steals all your shit. People are going to say "Man that sucks, I am sorry, I hope they catch the guy." Not "Dude, you should have had an alarm and bars and a dog, what did you expect?"

If you leave your car in a space with bad/no lighting that's in an area known for theft, absolutely.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

It's not about telling rapists "don't rape." It's about telling everybody "don't rape."

I'm sure that sounded better in your head.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Everything was okay until she said the sentence was unfair. Anyone actually defending that isn't worth my time. Serena is a straight up dumbass.

I missed that entirely.

 

[akira28]

Because you're looking at what the victim did, pointing out the "mistakes," and then highlighting how you don't (or wouldn't have) made them. The entire point of even contributing such useless information is solely to point out how you wouldn't/didn't do what they did, and you haven't been raped yet.

There's nothing to that beyond "look at how prepped/smart I am."

When the thread eventually gets to the point where people begin bringing up how futile arguing for the prevention of rape is because it'll never go away/we'll never achieve utopia, and people point out how even the best prepared people can become victims, such a standpoint as the one you're protecting becomes even MORE useless, because you're acknowledging that all this "helpful advice" you're dispensing isn't anywhere near as helpful as trying to change the way people think about rape.

Pointing out all the things the victim could have done to protect herself after the fact isn't helpful. It's hubris.

I haven't done any of that. No where. None. Nunca. No mas. But I did say earlier that some people might take it that way, and if they did, then that was on them. But other people would see it as a call for action and education, not moral judgement or social "prepping" or victim shaming.

and bubba, I don't happen to think it's useless to make sure people are always on their toes and aware of their vulnerabilities in order to keep them safe. You might think "oh no, don't mention it, it will give them a sad"

There's nothing to that beyond "look at how prepped/smart I am."

So because you never know what will happen to you, and despite your best efforts something bad can STILL happen to you, if you try to protect yourself it's not only ultimately futile, false confidence. You're actually lording it over all the other people who don't know or don't bother to take precautions to protect themselves. Precautions? why should anyone have to take those?? You think it makes you better than someone else? Because you're "safe"?

Everything was okay until she said the sentence was unfair. Anyone actually defending that isn't worth my time. Serena is a straight up dumbass.

ok, I'm burning my 10 foot pole on that one.

 

[jtb]

I'm sure that sounded better in your head.

what exactly do you think rapists are? they're people who rape. no one was a rapist before they raped somebody. what exactly is so difficult to understand?

why should we absolve them of responsibility for their act? why should we absolve them of blame? all that does is send a clear message to EVERYBODY (and yes, it sounds fucking great in my head) that rape is an inevitability and therefore acceptable, and that the onus is on the victim to NOT get raped. that's rape culture. that's not a society I want to live in.

 

[Bigfoot]

Not entirely idiotic.

She isn't really blaming the girl, just suggesting a way that (sadly) the situation could be avoided by the girl, in hindsight. It doesn't condone the actions of the criminals.

I agree with this post. Victim blaming doesn't always mean that the actions of the criminals are ok. People have to take responsibility for the situations they put themselves in.

If a guy gets piss drunk and hops in a cab, then wakes up on the side of the road with his wallet missing, the cab driver should still be charged the same as if he mugged a sober person, but the drunk guy is still an idiot.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Okay, akira28. Keep thinkin hard, buddy.

 

[akira28]

Okay, akira28. Keep thinkin hard, buddy.

I'm going to pay Bieber to run your ass over. You better look both ways walking out of the bathtub.

 

[SpectreFire]

Not to mention, what are reasonable precautions for women to avoid rape? Never drink alcohol? Don't go to parties? Don't associate with men at all? Wear a Burka? Sounds like a load of fun.

There's never any reasonable precaution to avoid rape entirely and no one has any expectation of it. The only real thing you can do is have your wits about you and understand that people don't always have your best interests at hand. That's not to say be overly suspicious, but the best deterrent is to learn to say no, and I'm not talking about saying no to someone raping you.

Say no when people are telling you to take another shot, go to another venue, come with them to an after party, when the back of your mind says that's not a good idea. It's about learning to set your limits and dealing with peer pressure. You can never really avoid rape, but you can avoid situations when you've passed your tipping point and the odds of something bad happening severely increases. I mean, we've all done that, we've all done things in a social setting where we really probably shouldn't have because we've been peer pressured to do it. The best precaution is simply learning how to handle that peer pressure and being firm with your own personal judgement of a situation. If there's red flags popping up, learn to listen to yourself.

 

[User 100115]

Since everyone is failing to get this: The reason calling the victims actions into question is bullshit is because those bullet proof magical ways to prevent rape don't actually prevent rape. Lets be incredibly stupid and say we outlaw all women from ever getting drunk. Ya know what? Wouldn't make a dent in rape. Make it law that all women have to wear robes in public? Wouldn't prevent rape. There is ALWAYS something that in hindsight people are saying about rape victims that would have prevented their rape. Girl could be as innocent as a lamb, never touched a drop or drug, covered from chin to ankle and walking in daylight with a trusted friend who then rapes her and people would tell her 'Well, you shouldn't have been hanging out with rapists.'

And with that, I am going to stop posting in this thread since it's bad for my blood pressure. Enjoy.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

There's never any reasonable precaution to avoid rape entirely and no one has any expectation of it. The only real thing you can do is have your wits about you and understand that people don't always have your best interests at hand. That's not to say be overly suspicious, but the best deterrent is to learn to say no, and I'm not talking about saying no to someone raping you.

Say no when people are telling you to take another shot, go to another venue, come with them to an after party, when the back of your mind says that's not a good idea. It's about learning to set your limits and dealing with peer pressure. You can never really avoid rape, but you can avoid situations when you've passed your tipping point and the odds of something bad happening severely increases. I mean, we've all done that, we've all done things in a social setting where we really probably shouldn't have because we've been peer pressured to do it. The best precaution is simply learning how to handle that peer pressure and being firm with your own personal judgement of a situation. If there's red flags popping up, learn to listen to yourself.

They shouldn't have to do that. What is so hard to understand?

 

[inm8num2]

Serena Williams is hardly an expert on these matters, so her opinion is irrelevant (and grossly misguided) to me.

 

[someday]

I love how a girl being drunk at a party (where everyone else was drinking as well) is akin to a Neo-Nazi walking in the ghetto wearing gold watches, or a spotlight shining on a living room full of high tech toys with the curtains open at night (oh, and the door is obviously unlocked). Basically, you're all saying the girl was so stupid that she got herself raped. I don't care how you want to dress it up, that's what this boils down to.

 

[antonz]

I agree with this post. Victim blaming doesn't always mean that the actions of the criminals are ok. People have to take responsibility for the situations they put themselves in.

If a guy gets piss drunk and hops in a cab, then wakes up on the side of the road with his wallet missing, the cab driver should still be charged the same as if he mugged a sober person, but the drunk guy is still an idiot.

That's crazy if anything the drunk man did the right thing and didn't get into his own vehicle etc. Shit they have TV ads during the holidays telling drunks to do just that get a cab.

We need to stop putting the blame on victims in these scenarios and hold Society to higher standards in general.

CNN was literally lamenting the poor athletes lives who were ruined because they were found guilty of rape. These were spoiled punks in a football town who were above the law until a citizen decided enough was enough and shined a huge spotlight on this cesspool of a town.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Since everyone is failing to get this: The reason calling the victims actions into question is bullshit is because those bullet proof magical ways to prevent rape don't actually prevent rape. Lets be incredibly stupid and say we outlaw all women from ever getting drunk. Ya know what? Wouldn't make a dent in rape. Make it law that all women have to wear robes in public? Wouldn't prevent rape. There is ALWAYS something that in hindsight people are saying about rape victims that would have prevented their rape. Girl could be as innocent as a lamb, never touched a drop or drug, covered from chin to ankle and walking in daylight with a trusted friend who then rapes her and people would tell her 'Well, you shouldn't have been hanging out with rapists.'

And with that, I am going to stop posting in this thread since it's bad for my blood pressure. Enjoy.

This put it much more eloquently than I could. Thank you.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Since everyone is failing to get this: The reason calling the victims actions into question is bullshit is because those bullet proof magical ways to prevent rape don't actually prevent rape. Lets be incredibly stupid and say we outlaw all women from ever getting drunk. Ya know what? Wouldn't make a dent in rape. Make it law that all women have to wear robes in public? Wouldn't prevent rape. There is ALWAYS something that in hindsight people are saying about rape victims that would have prevented their rape. Girl could be as innocent as a lamb, never touched a drop or drug, covered from chin to ankle and walking in daylight with a trusted friend who then rapes her and people would tell her 'Well, you shouldn't have been hanging out with rapists.'

And with that, I am going to stop posting in this thread since it's bad for my blood pressure. Enjoy.

We live in a world were nothing is entirely preventable, the risk of something occurring however can be decreased if we take proper precautions.

 

[SpectreFire]

They shouldn't have to do that. What is so hard to understand?

Because what you have in mind is an ideal world where everyone respects each others' rights. We don't live in that world. We will never live in that world.

When I cross the street on a green light, I look both ways. Why? Because even though I should have a reasonable expectation of people stopping and not running me over, I don't, because people are not infallible. They make mistakes, they commit bad choices. They're responsible for not driving into me, but I should have zero expectations that all of them will be. 99% of them will stop, all it takes is for that 1% to not stop, and then I'm fucked.

There's a difference between an ideal expectation, and a realistic one. Expecting everyone to respect your person is ideal, but not realistic.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

My issue is with

The rest is okay. Saying "I don't know" and excusing a rapist being brought to justice? That's fucked up.

Agreed. Not taking drinks from strangers is pretty good advice on helping to avoid getting drugged in the future, as is avoiding poorly lit streets at 5 in the morning and other forms of active precautionary measures. Hardly "blaming the victim" IMO, and of course mistakes happen and rapists/criminals/what have you happen, that doesn't mean we can't take the time anyway to remind and educate people on how to keep themselves safer in the future and at least mitigate the chances of such horror happening again.

But her whole bit about the perps getting their sentencing and suffixing it with "IDK" is a bit bungly. TBF, though, she's a tennis player not a senator or public orator, and not knowing the context of the interview she could've been caught off guard (not to mention that false rape accusations ARE an actual issue)

/devil's advocate

 

[akira28]

Is anyone here telling women they should be the ones to prevent rape?

Because all I've been saying is that women should be informed and instructed on how to protect themselves, and that's basically it.

 

[royalan]

They shouldn't have to do that. What is so hard to understand?

They shouldn't have to do that, but they do. And implying that they do is in no way absolving assholes who would take advantage of someone else.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Because what you have in mind is an ideal world where everyone respects each others' rights. We don't live in that world. We will never live in that world.

When I cross the street on a green light, I look both ways. Why? Because even though I should have a reasonable expectation of people stopping and not running me over, I don't, because people are not infallible. They make mistakes, they commit bad choices. They're responsible for not driving into me, but I should have zero expectations that all of them will be. 99% of them will stop, all it takes is for that 1% to not stop, and then I'm fucked.

There's a difference between an ideal expectation, and a realistic one. Expecting everyone to respect your person is ideal, but not realistic.

Stopping at a stoplight and committing rape are two entirely different things on the moral scale of right and wrong, so I can't say I'm really digging the analogy.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Stopping at a stoplight and committing rape are two entirely different things on the moral scale of right and wrong, so I can't say I'm really digging the analogy.

What if the person running that red light is drunk?

 

[blackflag]

There's a really weird disconnect here that I just don't get. People are expending quite a bit of rhetorical effort to say things like this: "I'm not victim blaming, I'm just pointing out what the victim did wrong and what she should have done differently if she didn't want to be raped. But I'm not blaming her, honest!"

It's completely incoherent.

Is it really that hard to understand?

None of it was her fault. Rape is solely the fault and decision of the person committing it.

You can tell guys don't rape until you are blue in the face but some people are just monsters. so, knowing that, there are things women can do to better protect themselves and it is worth discussing for safety....and no, I'm not talking about what they wear.

I'm not defending Serena though, she made it sound like their punishment was too harsh.

 

[SpectreFire]

Stopping at a stoplight and committing rape are two entirely different things on the moral scale of right and wrong, so I can't say I'm really digging the analogy.

They're morally different, but that's not the point. The point I'm making is that people aren't morally perfect and expecting everyone to be able to hold your personal rights to a high regard is naive.

I agree with you that ideally we should have the expectation that our rights are respected by others. I disagree with you that it's a realistic expectation to have.

 

[rocketknight]

Is anyone here telling women they should be the ones to prevent rape?

Because all I've been saying is that women should be informed and instructed on how to protect themselves, and that's basically it.

Anyone using language that includes verbs like "should" in relation to the victim's actions is pretty much doing that, yes. Girls shouldn't go to parties (if you go to a party you lose your "good girl" card and with it all sympathy if you get raped)! Girls shouldn't drink (if you drink you lose your "good girl" card and with it all sympathy if you get raped)! It's a really shortsighted, judgmental and binary system set up to make it easy to offload the responsibility for rape onto women explicitly to dilute the responsibility men have not to rape.

 

[User 100115]

We live in a world were nothing is entirely preventable, the risk of something occurring however can be decreased if we take proper precautions.

Once more post, since again, people are failing to understand this.

If a guy is in that mindset where rape is not that big a deal and totally okay? It's not going to matter if she's drunk, or wearing slutty clothing, or hanging out with strangers. If she is with that guy, she is going to get raped. It doesn't matter if that guy is her boyfriend, a trusted friend, an uncle or father or stranger. His actions are what matters, not hers. He is who we need to be educating, not her.

 

[SmokyDave]

Once more post, since again, people are failing to understand this.

If a guy is in that mindset where rape is not that big a deal and totally okay? It's not going to matter if she's drunk, or wearing slutty clothing, or hanging out with strangers. If she is with that guy, she is going to get raped. It doesn't matter if that guy is her boyfriend, a trusted friend, an uncle or father or stranger. His actions are what matters, not hers. He is who we need to be educating, not her.

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we advise people to take reasonable measures to protect themselves, whilst reluctantly accepting that all these measures might well fail? Is there no room for the concept of minimising risk or vulnerability?

 

[DanteFox]

She's right. Unfortunately, certain people will be outraged about the statement because they think it's impossible to be against rape AND against putting yourself in dangerous positions.

 

[POWERSPHERE]

Live and die by the Jock Code

 

[akira28]

Anyone using language that includes verbs like "should" in relation to the victim's actions is pretty much doing that, yes. Girls shouldn't go to parties (if you go to a party you lose your "good girl" card and with it all sympathy if you get raped)! Girls shouldn't drink (if you drink you lose your "good girl" card and with it all sympathy if you get raped)! It's a really shortsighted, judgmental and binary system set up to make it easy to offload the responsibility for rape onto women explicitly to dilute the responsibility men have not to rape.

But all those shoulds and shouldn'ts you added weren't part of the equation.

But there are a lot of reasonable shoulds and shouldn'ts that will help keep all people safe. (I'm not even talking about burkas and women only being allowed to leave with male relatives, but somehow that's always the extreme example that comes up at some point. )

 

[Satch]

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we advise people to take reasonable measures to protect themselves, whilst reluctantly accepting that all these measures might well fail? Is there no room for the concept of minimising risk or vulnerability?

*~*~*but we already do*~*~*

 

[Kazerei]

You can tell guys don't rape until you are blue in the face but some people are just monsters.

Some people are just monsters. Others would certainly change their behaviour if they were seriously taught don't rape. Take the Steubenville rapists, for example. They didn't view fingering an unconscious girl as a seriously wrong thing, because of the shitty attitudes they grew up with. The whole town, and even other people like Serena Williams, just brushed it off as a little "boys will be boys" thing. If people were taught that fingering an unconscious person is rape, it's disgusting, and you'll be punished for it, then we would see fewer instances of rape. That's the purpose of the don't rape message.

 

[SpectreFire]

Once more post, since again, people are failing to understand this.

If a guy is in that mindset where rape is not that big a deal and totally okay? It's not going to matter if she's drunk, or wearing slutty clothing, or hanging out with strangers. If she is with that guy, she is going to get raped. It doesn't matter if that guy is her boyfriend, a trusted friend, an uncle or father or stranger. His actions are what matters, not hers. He is who we need to be educating, not her.

Rape prevention isn't supposed to prevent that, nothing can really prevent that except maybe a gun, but that's an entirely different discussion.

But proper precautions prevent rape that happens on a more casual basis, like a drunk kid at a party. People need to understand that there are different degrees of rape, as there are different degrees of any crime. A person who stalks a woman and rapes her in her own home or an alleyway, or puts a roofie in her drink, is not the same person as someone who's wasted at a party and commits drunk rape. Are they just as heinous? Yes, but the latter is far more preventable than the former, and that's what most rape precautions are trying to prevent.