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[rocketknight]

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we advise people to take reasonable measures to protect themselves, whilst reluctantly accepting that all these measures might well fail? Is there no room for the concept of minimising risk or vulnerability?

The problem is that there are an infinite number of things you can blame a woman for not doing, and nobody is ever going to be able to do all of them. Any patronizing person with an internet connection can then tut-tut about one of the things she didn't do this time and use it to judge her and offload blame for her own rape onto her. Women can't win at this game, so is it any wonder why we don't want to play it?

 

[akira28]

the 'boys will be boys' thing blows my mind too. I'm stuck in the middle with the lot of you. And I don't like it. Want off this planet.

 

[SmokyDave]

*~*~*but we already do*~*~*

Many people do, but I'm getting the impression that we're not supposed to.

The problem is that there are an infinite number of things you can blame a woman for not doing, and nobody is ever going to be able to do all of them. Any patronizing person with an internet connection can then tut-tut about one of the things she didn't do this time and use it to judge her and offload blame for her own rape onto her. Women can't win at this game, so is it any wonder why we don't want to play it?

I'm not talking about blaming or judging women that have already been raped, that shits heinous. I'm talking about offering advice or recommendations to try and keep as many women safe as possible as much as is possible.

 

[Dead Man]

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we advise people to take reasonable measures to protect themselves, whilst reluctantly accepting that all these measures might well fail? Is there no room for the concept of minimising risk or vulnerability?

You can, but saying it after the rape has occurred just makes you look a twat.

 

[Salamando]

Some people are just monsters. Others would certainly change their behaviour if they were seriously taught don't rape. Take the Steubenville rapists, for example. They didn't view fingering an unconscious girl as a seriously wrong thing, because of the shitty attitudes they grew up with. The whole town, and even other people like Serena Williams, just brushed it off as a little "boys will be boys" thing. If people were taught that fingering an unconscious person is rape, it's disgusting, and you'll be punished for it, then we would see fewer instances of rape. That's the purpose of the don't rape message.

I don't think anyone's saying that we shouldn't be trying to figure out why people rape and how we can stop it. As with any crime, it's a society's job to try and decrease the amount of a crime, while it's my job to do what I can to make myself not a victim of that crime. If I do, still not my fault, but people can and should learn from what I did so it doesn't have to happen to them.

 

[Unbounded]

Some people are just monsters.

Ok, so let's assume the scenario where as many people are taught not to rape as possible.

What do we do about the remaining few who still end up becoming rapists anyway?

 

[antonz]

the 'boys will be boys' thing blows my mind too. I'm stuck in the middle with the lot of you. And I don't like it. Want off this planet.

See in cases like this it even goes beyond boys will be boys. There is a sick and twisted reality around athletes and high potential athletes.

When these two were sentenced to a minimum of a year in jail CNN literally talked about how these star athletes likely had their futures ruined by the judges decision. Wasn't even a mention of the girl. It was the poor athletes.

There is a lot that needs to change before we even get to the idea of doing things differently as the victim.

 

[blackflag]

Some people are just monsters. Others would certainly change their behaviour if they were seriously taught don't rape. Take the Steubenville rapists, for example. They didn't view fingering an unconscious girl as a seriously wrong thing, because of the shitty attitudes they grew up with. The whole town, and even other people like Serena Williams, just brushed it off as a little "boys will be boys" thing. If people were taught that fingering an unconscious person is rape, it's disgusting, and you'll be punished for it, then we would see fewer instances of rape. That's the purpose of the don't rape message.

Where did I say that shouldnt be taught or preached? All I'm saying is regardless, it won't stop everyone so women need knowledge to help protect themselves. Some of you guys have a hard time with reading comprehension.

 

[rocketknight]

Rape prevention isn't supposed to prevent that, nothing can really prevent that except maybe a gun, but that's an entirely different discussion.

But proper precautions prevent rape that happens on a more casual basis, like a drunk kid at a party. People need to understand that there are different degrees of rape, as there are different degrees of any crime. A person who stalks a woman and rapes her in her own home or an alleyway, or puts a roofie in her drink, is not the same person as someone who's wasted at a party and commits drunk rape. Are they just as heinous? Yes, but the latter is far more preventable than the former, and that's what most rape precautions are trying to prevent.

Oh god, dude. You're going to take the GOP tack of "legitimate rape?" And for the record, the latter type of rape is much more prevalent than the former, and actually harder to prevent. For the former you can just view dark alleys with suspicion; for the latter, to cover all your bases, you have to be worried about all of your guy friends at all times, which is an absurd burden to be asked to meet.

 

[SpectreFire]

Ok, so let's assume the scenario where as many people are taught not to rape as possible.

What do we do about the remaining few who still end up becoming rapists anyway?

Isn't that the scenario we're living in right now? I don't know anyone who's been taught to be a rapist...

Oh god, dude. You're going to take the GOP tack of "legitimate rape?" And for the record, the latter type of rape is much more prevalent than the former, and actually harder to prevent. For the former you can just view dark alleys with suspicion; for the latter, to cover all your bases, you have to be worried about all of your guy friends at all times, which is an absurd burden to be asked to meet.

What? I don't even know what you're talking about. There's no such thing as legitimate or illegitimate rape. Rape is rape. But there is definitely distinctions as to how it happens, and it absolutely helps to understand what causes it.

It's much harder to prevent someone who intentionally wants to do something to you as opposed to someone who does it out of opportunity. And I've already stated in the last page about ideas and ways to educate kids on how to avoid bad situations where it could potentially result in rape, or other just as awful things.

 

[Dead Man]

Ok, so let's assume the scenario where as many people are taught not to rape as possible.

What do we do about the remaining few who still end up becoming rapists anyway?

You realise some people will rape someone regardless of what they are wearing, or whether they have been drinking, or any other factors, right?

 

[faceless007]

Ok, so let's assume the scenario where as many people are taught not to rape as possible.

What do we do about the remaining few who still end up becoming rapists anyway?

Why is that the important thing to worry about right now?

 

[Randy Monk]

Live and die by the Jock Code

Just another dumb jock defending other dumb jocks.

What little respect I had for Serena as a person is now gone.

Just another dumb jock saying dumb things.

 

[SmokyDave]

You can, but saying it after the rape has occurred just makes you look a twat.

I'm not talking about any specific case though, more the general concept of personal safety for women. To be honest, I don't know why I'm discussing this at all since my thoughts aren't even relevant to the nonsense in the OP.

 

[Unbounded]

You realise some people will rape someone regardless of what they are wearing, or whether they have been drinking, or any other factors, right?

Ok, so what are we supposed to do to stop people from getting raped then?

 

[Kazerei]

I don't think anyone's saying that we shouldn't be trying to figure out why people rape and how we can stop it. As with any crime, it's a society's job to try and decrease the amount of a crime, while it's my job to do what I can to make myself not a victim of that crime. If I do, still not my fault, but people can and should learn from what I did so it doesn't have to happen to them.

Agreed.

Ok, so let's assume the scenario where as many people are taught not to rape as possible.

What do we do about the remaining few who still end up becoming rapists anyway?

The goal is to reduce rape, not eliminate it completely.

Where did I say that shouldnt be taught or preached? All I'm saying is regardless, it won't stop everyone so women need knowledge to help protect themselves. Some of you guys have a hard time with reading comprehension.

Sorry, didn't mean to single you out.

I only skimmed the last few pages, but it seemed like there was a sentiment that "rapists gonna rape" and that the "don't rape" message is useless. That wasn't you though.

 

[Dead Man]

I'm not talking about any specific case though, more the general concept of personal safety for women. To be honest, I don't know why I'm discussing this at all since my thoughts aren't even relevant to the nonsense in the OP.

Heh, fair enough.

Ok, so what are we supposed to do to stop people from getting raped then?

Jesus christ. Is that the only thing you can post? It will never be possible to prevent all crime.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

So many threads about rape...

Same old story, ey?

You're clearly not focussing your resources right if you spend even a fraction of your time with coming up with reasons for why it could be someones fault for being raped.

 

[blackflag]

You realise some people will rape someone regardless of what they are wearing, or whether they have been drinking, or any other factors, right?

Yes but some of you are ignoring the fact that a girl can scream and yell, do something to get attention if she isn't comatose drunk? Or teach people simple things like how to avoid getting roofied....but I know...those are terrible lessons we shouldn't teach anyone because it takes away our freedom.

 

[blackflag]

Agreed.



The goal is to reduce rape, not eliminate it completely.



Sorry, didn't mean to single you out.

I only skimmed the last few pages, but it seemed like there was a sentiment that "rapists gonna rape" and that the "don't rape" message is useless. That wasn't you though.

Word, I definitely think it's a good message. It's helpful for sure.

 

[Aselith]

The problem with GAF is that people think the world revolves around right and wrong, it doesn't. Should a woman be able to walk around half naked drunk anywhere she wants? Yes. She should have to freedom to do and dress however she wants in an ideal world. But it in the REAL world there are precautions she should take to lessen the chance of something unfortunate happening (ie not wandering around drunk and half naked on a dark street). I am not blaming the victim or condoning rape at all, just try to make smart decisions.

As a black man there are precautions I have to take in my day to day life that people of other races don't. Is it fair? No, but that's the society we live in. Should people just not be racist? Sure but this isn't the perfect ideal world.

Here's the problem with saying this....people will use it to defend her rapists. They'll say exactly she was putting herself at stupid risk so maybe we can cut these fellas a little slack. It's basically entrapment. She was throwing herself out there maybe...just a little...she deserved it?

There's another just the way it is thing. If you don't take a very hard stance that something is wrong and if you don't leave no outs, they'll start to soften on the crime. That's not the way it should be but that's the way it is.


Boys will be boys though right guys?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Tragic logic.

 

[Dead Man]

Yes but some of you are ignoring the fact that a girl can scream and yell, do something to get attention if she isn't comatose drunk? Or teach people simple things like how to avoid getting roofied....but I know...those are terrible lessons we shouldn't teach anyone because it takes away our freedom.

Bloody hell. Yes, but lots of sober women don't fight back or yell, for lots of reasons.

 

[MemoryHumanity]

Girl gets drunk and then gets raped.

"She's lucky"

Okay.

 

[blackflag]

Bloody hell. Yes, but lots of sober women don't fight back or yell, for lots of reasons.

Ok but that doesn't make it their fault and tht doesn't mean we shouldnt give people knowledge....wtf.

 

[SpectreFire]

Girl gets drunk and then gets raped.

"She's lucky"

Okay.

Sure, take it out of context like that.

She's 16, why was she that drunk where she doesn't remember? It could have been much worse. She's lucky.

She's not wrong. Considering how prevalent drunk driving fatalities are with young people, she could have just as easily died in a car crash getting to that place, and this would have been an entirely different discussion.

 

[faceless007]

Yes but some of you are ignoring the fact that a girl can scream and yell, do something to get attention if she isn't comatose drunk? Or teach people simple things like how to avoid getting roofied....but I know...those are terrible lessons we shouldn't teach anyone because it takes away our freedom.

Some guys don't like it when girls take measures to do that either. Guess they can't win either way.

 

[Dead Man]

Ok but that doesn't make it their fault and tht doesn't mean we shouldnt give people knowledge....wtf.

Who is saying don't give people knowledge? Nobody. Pointing out after the fact that she shouldn't have been drinking? Utterly useless and classless.

 

[jtb]

Sure, take it out of context like that.


She's not wrong. Considering how prevalent drunk driving fatalities are with young people, she could have just as easily died in a car crash.

how kind of her rapist, keeping her in so that she wouldn't die in a horrific car accident.

 

[SpectreFire]

how kind of her rapist, keeping her in so that she wouldn't die in a horrific car accident.

So you think there's nothing wrong with drunk driving? I don't understand your tone.

 

[blackflag]

Who is saying don't give people knowledge? Nobody. Pointing out after the fact that she shouldn't have been drinking? Utterly useless and classless.

People in this thread. I'm not on Serena's side. What she said is stupid.

 

[RedAssedApe]

proof that serena is on the juice. spoken like a man

 

[SpectreFire]

proof that serena is on the juice. spoken like a man

Because men can't be raped right?

 

[not psycho]

The victim in this case already has to deal with death threats like this one:

In a tweet to the victim, Police say one of the teens wrote, “you ripped my family apart, you made my cousin cry , so when I see you (expletive), it’s gone be a homicide.”

A classic example from a different sexual assault case, from a judge no less:

Bad things can happen in bars, Hatch told the victim, adding that other people might be more intoxicated than she was.

“If you wouldn’t have been there that night, none of this would have happened to you,” Hatch said.

And an example of someone calling rape "something stupid" and saying the extremely light sentence was unfairly harsh:

Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know.

As much as we make tenuous analogies to other crimes, there does seem to be something unique with the way victims of sexual crimes are bullied, threatened with death, and conveniently blamed for whatever it was they happened to be doing at the time, be it getting drunk, being near people getting drunk, being near strangers, wearing revealing clothes, etc. And with the way rapists are excused and there is actually anger at the victim for the rapist getting punished.

At the same time, education for all teenagers on how not to get blackout drunk is a good thing. But first, it shouldn't be posed in a way that seems to add to the choir attacking a victim and excusing rapists. And second, it should be honest. A real attempt at education, not just a potshot at a victim when if circumstances had been different they would have taken a shot at that too.

 

[LevelNth]

Unfortunately Serena, not every woman looks like a man like you, completely and abhorrently turning off any potential rapist. Guess they're not as 'lucky' as you.

Spoiler

soooo ugly

 

[jtb]

So you think there's nothing wrong with drunk driving? I don't understand your tone.

what is there to understand? she was raped.

I do not understand the mental gymanastics required to somehow construe someone being RAPED as "lucky." Not only does that make being raped a positive outcome, but it also implies that this is an inevitability out of our control. which is completley and utterly false. this wasn't an accident, this wasn't an inevitability, this wasn't a natural phenomena—this was one person making a conscious decision to commit a heinous act. to imply otherwise is to absolve the rapist of responsibility and blame, and I'm not about to do that.

you can thank her rapist all you want for preventing her from being killed by a drunk driver; I'll pass though.

 

[Satch]

proof that serena is on the juice. spoken like a man

Unfortunately Serena, not every woman looks like a man like you, completely and abhorrently turning off any potential rapist. Guess they're not as 'lucky' as you.

Spoiler

soooo ugly

 

[iammeiam]

So you think there's nothing wrong with drunk driving? I don't understand your tone.

The girl got blackout drunk and passed out. I'm going to guess that, statistically, most people who get drunk and pass out at parties tend to wake up the next morning alive and not raped. It's not 5% OK, 80% dead in a drunk driving accident, 15% raped. That she 'only' got raped, instead of dying in a crash while her rapists drove her unconscious body around, isn't any definition of luck I know.

 

[MemoryHumanity]

Unfortunately Serena, not every woman looks like a man like you, completely and abhorrently turning off any potential rapist. Guess they're not as 'lucky' as you.

Spoiler

soooo ugly

Joke post? Please be a joke post.

 

[SpectreFire]

As much as we make tenuous analogies to other crimes, there does seem to be something unique with the way victims of sexual crimes are bullied, threatened with death, and conveniently blamed for whatever it was they happened to be doing at the time, be it getting drunk, being near people getting drunk, being near strangers, wearing revealing clothes, etc. And with the way rapists are excused and there is actually anger at the victim for the rapist getting punished.

I think that's because as a society, we've yet to hold mental crimes in the same light as physical crimes. Unless the rape victim is completely battered and beaten, you're right, they are treated poorly compared to other just as heinous crimes.

Hell, look at bullying and abusive relationships, people often blame the victims of not manning up enough, or not leaving the relationship when it got bad. It's a result of us not understanding just how serious and devastating mental abuse can be. A lot of rape isn't that physically abusive, it violates the mind more so than it does the body and people don't see that kind of damage. It's just not visible, so like bullying and other mental abuse, we sweep it under the rug because we don't understand it enough yet.

what is there to understand? she was raped.

I do not understand the mental gymanastics required to somehow construe someone being RAPED as "lucky." Not only does that make being raped a positive outcome, but it also implies that this is an inevitability out of our control. which is completley and utterly false. this wasn't an accident, this wasn't an inevitability, this wasn't a natural phenomena—this was one person making a conscious decision to commit a heinous act. to imply otherwise is to absolve the rapist of responsibility and blame, and I'm not about to do that.

you can thank her rapist all you want for preventing her from being killed by a drunk driver; I'll pass though.

You have terrible reading comprehension. No one said she was lucky she was raped, she clearly stated that the girl was lucky because it wasn't something worse like death. You are way misconstruing a simple statement.,

 

[BLACKLAC]

Unfortunately Serena, not every woman looks like a man like you, completely and abhorrently turning off any potential rapist. Guess they're not as 'lucky' as you.

Spoiler

soooo ugly

Dunno about that.

She should apologies for questioning the punishment but the rest reminds me of the teachings of Chappelle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvTkAzkCD9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7QNw1LRJv4

 

[leng jai]

Unfortunately Serena, not every woman looks like a man like you, completely and abhorrently turning off any potential rapist. Guess they're not as 'lucky' as you.

Spoiler

soooo ugly

Nice.

 

[jtb]

You have terrible reading comprehension. No one said she was lucky she was raped, she clearly stated that the girl was lucky because it wasn't something worse like death. You are way misconstruing a simple statement.,

... do you not read your own posts? before you insult me, read what you're writing.

"she clearly stated the girl was lucky because it [RAPE] wasn't something worse like death." hence... she was lucky that she was raped. (for whatever reason)

you are forcing this into a false choice between rape and being killed by a drunk driver. those aren't the only two options. one of the options should have been "to not be raped." and that shouldn't even be considered "lucky," it should be considered the norm.

 

[SpectreFire]

... do you not read your own posts? before you insult me, read what you're writing.

"she clearly stated the girl was lucky because it [RAPE] wasn't something worse like death." hence... she was lucky that she was raped. (for whatever reason)

you are forcing this into a false choice between rape and being killed by a drunk driver. those aren't the only two options. one of the options should have been "to not be raped." and that shouldn't even be considered "lucky," it should be considered the norm.

What are you even talking about. No one said she was lucky she was raped. You're just making that part up.

She's implying that the girl was lucky to not have died, not that she was lucky to have been raped. Those things don't have to go hand in hand. It's in the context of if something awful had to happen to her, then she's lucky she didn't outright die. Unless you consider not being raped something awful, which would imply something kind of wrong about you.

 

[jtb]

(sorry I had to rewrite this post to include your edit)

What are you even talking about. No one said she was lucky she was raped. You're just making that part up.

She's implying that the girl was lucky to not have died, not that she was lucky to have been raped. Those things don't have to go hand in hand. You're making it sound like her only two choices were to be raped or die. That's awful.

"It could have been much worse. She's lucky."

SHE. as in, you take ALL aspects of her situation. the fact that she's alive AND the fact that she was raped.

it's not lucky under any circumstances, period.

 

[Amir0x]

oh fucking christ Serena...

 

[commedieu]

She has to understand how her words will flow across the planet moments after saying them. No excuses for any of this, its a terrible thing to say out loud as a human being. Gigantic dumbshit.

Sure, shes going to apologize in the following days. But shes already spoken from the heart.


And also,

ITT: People still associate attraction with rape.

Rape happens for a myriad of reasons. Can you all address this? If not on here, just with yourselves. Its an amazingly naive mindset.

(sorry I had to rewrite this post to include your edit)



"It could have been much worse. She's lucky."

SHE. as in, you take ALL aspects of her situation. the fact that she's alive AND the fact that she was raped.

Honestly, people usually mean killed. But then you still wouldn't say that about someone who was just raped, well you or I wouldn't most likely. Its just not a scenario where you praise a persons misfortune.

 

[inm8num2]

This thread makes baby Jesus cry.

Rape is wrong and inexcusable no matter how drunk or scantily dressed someone is. And in no shape, way, or form should someone be told they're lucky for not having something worse happen after being raped.

End of discussion.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Athletes are fun to watch; not so much to listen to.

 

[commedieu]

Athletes are fun to watch; not so much to listen to.

Thats the real takeaway here.

We need to realize the source is up its own ass. The sentiment though, seems to be shared with all classes of persons and education.

Just old world thinking.