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Serena Williams On Steubenville: "I'm Not Blaming The Girl But ..."

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Alienous said:
Not entirely idiotic.

She isn't really blaming the girl, just suggesting a way that (sadly) the situation could be avoided by the girl, in hindsight. It doesn't condone the actions of the criminals.
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I don't think some people here are going to take it that way because their pitchforks are getting rusty, but I, too, took it this way and I think I understand her meaning. She's not wrong. If the girl hadn't gotten so belligerent, who knows what might have happened? The sad thing is that if those boys didn't target her, they'd probably end up getting someone else. If not now, the later and perhaps with even more dire consequences.

lol @ the notion that it's old world thinking to say this probably would not have happened if she was not there or not there in that state. How difficult is it really for some people to concede or acknowledge something like that? The majority of the people in here who understand and agree with Serena on some level aren't sitting here saying the rapists are excused because the young woman was irresponsible. To be honest, I don't think I've seen a single person make that argument. You can condemn the attackers' heinous actions and acknowledge the young woman's irresponsible drinking at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive.
 
Shes just saying that even if she wasnt raped, she shouldnt be getting blackout drunk around people she obviously didnt know that well cause stuff like this can happen. Her parents should have told her this.
 
Long story short, both are at fault. You shouldn't rape people nor should you be 16 getting drunk. However, Serena should have wordered it differently.
 
VahnSSR said:
Long story short, both are at fault. You shouldn't rape people nor should you be 16 getting drunk. However, Serena should have wordered it differently.
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Np, No, No, No...

People are allowed to completely ignore any elevated risky environment they put themselves in. Considering the immediate environment and people in that environment is wrong.

For example a white man who got drunk and walked around Brownsville takes no blame for his inevitable ass beating.
 
Haha, knew that comment was going to get a lot of outrage. The second sentence was right at least. People shouldn't rape and they shouldn't get drunk at 16.
 
DeaconKnowledge said:
We're not giving advice to either party in this situation. We our voicing our opinions on a matter of public record.

It's not a good look to tell rapists not to rape after the deed has been done either.
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In the context of a 16 year old girl getting raped by a couple animals, hurr durr why she get so drunk is an idiotic opinion and not a good look for those who express it.
 
Thug Waffle said:
I don't think some people here are going to take it that way because their pitchforks are getting rusty, but I, too, took it this way and I think I understand her meaning. She's not wrong. If the girl hadn't gotten so belligerent, who knows what might have happened? The sad thing is that if those boys didn't target her, they'd probably end up getting someone else. If not now, the later and perhaps with even more dire consequences.

lol @ the notion that it's old world thinking to say this probably would not have happened if she was not there or not there in that state. How difficult is it really for some people to concede or acknowledge something like that? The majority of the people in here who understand and agree with Serena on some level aren't sitting here saying the rapists are excused because the young woman was irresponsible. To be honest, I don't think I've seen a single person make that argument. You can condemn the attackers' heinous actions and acknowledge the young woman's irresponsible drinking at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive.
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Its already conceded, when I said she stated the obvious. I was very detailed. You might have missed it. I didn't say that people are excusing rapists. I haven't seen anyone make that argument either.

Your own words are illustrating a picture of a person that calls a woman who was raped some form of irresponsible. People are irresponsible, teenagers are very irresponsible. Now we can move on from that, the world we live in, and focus on the rape that happened, and you agreeing in any way shape or form with what she said.

She questions the time the boys got.
She says the girl is lucky, after being raped.
She then says the girl should have known better, to not put herself in situations where she might get raped on. Well, rape happens everywhere. Regardless of victims intent or actions.

I expect this from a Republican Senator, as recent events have shown all of us that some people quite don't understand Women, nature, and science. Someone who doesn't understand what rape is, its dated thinking. She still said that she shouldn't have been wearing the dress to prom. Yes, its very old world. Very detached from what rape is. I don't think any of us gain anything by conceding the obvious, while not having the temerity to acknowledging that it is insignificant in rape.

You're being intellectually dishonest about discussing rape if you think that there is any merit, any significance, found in this girls actions that resulted in her rape. People have to be careful to live. Others manipulate and take advantage of people. Those people, are the only criminals. They are the only people responsible for their actions on others.

Its pretty safe to say that I, like you, and everyone else, knows that if she didn't go outside of her room, she wouldn't have been raped. If she didn't have a beer, she wouldn't have got raped. If she had friends with her, she wouldn't have got raped. Now that we are here, it has no value. How do we continue from that realization? What way does it provide information to discuss? It doesn't.

A woman gets raped. This is a crime.
You say she shares the blame. Depending on the situation.

You guys have this illusion that it matters. She could have been at home and raped by her brother. Where do victims actions come into play there? It doesn't, yet there is still a rape, its still just as valid as a crime as this one. So why on earth must you add insult to rape by insinuating that she should have done life differently so she wasn't unpredictably raped?

The sad thing is that if those boys didn't target her, they'd probably end up getting someone else. If not now, the later and perhaps with even more dire consequences.
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I mean you have a beautiful moment of clarity right here. This is why it doesn't matter about victims actions when they are randomly raped.
 
I don't see what's wrong with saying that victim has a responsibility to prevent themselves from being hurt. People need to be careful, period. That being said, the rapists need to be locked up and never see the light of day again.
 
Dude Abides said:
Serena's dead sister should have known better than to be hanging out in Compton.
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3Ltyjev.gif
 
VahnSSR said:
Long story short, both are at fault. You shouldn't rape people nor should you be 16 getting drunk. However, Serena should have wordered it differently.
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I could understand saying women and teenagers should be more careful, but I don't see how anyone could possibly defend this part of Serena's quote -

"Do you think it was fair, what they got? They did something stupid, but I don't know.
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So, a girl who was raped needs to accept she was at fault for putting herself in that position, but a boy who rapes a girl shouldn't be punished because boys will be boys?
 
foodtaster said:
I don't see what's wrong with saying that victim has a responsibility to prevent themselves from being hurt. People need to be careful, period. That being said, the rapists need to be locked up and never see the light of day again.
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Because it promotes an idea that victims share the decision of be raped violently against their will. There is nothing but wrong that comes from victim blaming. You can't prevent yourself from someone else deciding they are going to rape you. Especially doing pedestrian things all innocent people do at that age. That later manifests in society devaluing the heinous crimes, because it was some sort of mutual offense. Jury's of your peers, who share the sentiment act on their beliefs. That is where we are now with women and rape. It sounds very sharia law.
 
commedieu said:
Because it promotes an idea that victims share the decision of be raped violently against their will. There is nothing but wrong that comes from victim blaming. You can't prevent yourself from someone else deciding they are going to rape you. Especially doing pedestrian things all innocent people do at that age.
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That's nice and all, but there are situations where rape is particularly likely, to say the victim has no responsibility in avoiding those situations is silly. For example, staying with intoxicated men in a room alone will increase your chances of being raped. Avoiding these situations would be smart. It's not really a matter of blaming the victim, rather ensuring that people know how to be safe.
 
At some point the precautions that you 'need' just become silly when you are talking about other people doing a crime against you. Why not talk about having more security and protection for women and not perpetuating rape culture?
 
I never realized how naive I was about the rape issue. I always thought the "asking for it" defense was exclusively used by sleezy misogynist douchebags, and now I find otherwise reputable people saying the same thing and acting surprised when they're taken to task for it.
 
Weiss said:
I never realized how naive I was about the rape issue. I always thought the "asking for it" defense was exclusively used by sleezy misogynist douchebags, and now I find otherwise reputable people saying the same thing and acting surprised when they're taken to task for it.
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It's ingrained in the culture at this point. There needs to be steps taken against it, because to alot of people it is not very obvious.
 
The girl put herself in a vulnerable situation. That wasn't a crime. The punks who raped her are the criminals. And celebrities who comment on things like this are just dumb. "No comment" will save them time and money.

And the media who swirl up controversy by getting these stupid comments are almost worse.

There is one victim here.
 
foodtaster said:
I don't see what's wrong with saying that victim has a responsibility to prevent themselves from being hurt. People need to be careful, period. That being said, the rapists need to be locked up and never see the light of day again.
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Exactly. Serena just should have worded that differently. GAF is overreacting a tad bit.
 
foodtaster said:
That's nice and all, but there are situations where rape is particularly likely, to say the victim has no responsibility in avoiding those situations is silly. For example, staying with intoxicated men in a room alone will increase your chances of being raped. Avoiding these situations would be smart. It's not really a matter of blaming the victim, rather ensuring that people know how to be safe.
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It is a matter of blaming the victim of rape. Serena's specific statements were not in the form of a PSA about rape saftey. So we need to address that. If it was all she was saying, we wouldn't be here. She questioned the punishment, she suggested she should have known better, and that she is lucky. If you want to isolate the one part of her message, and ignore the rest, that is fine by me. But she victim blamed this girl.

You know rape is random, and can happen anywhere. Which is why there is nothing gained in victim blaming. For every one instance a person is the opposite of smart for not avoiding, people are still raped. These people, are still held to the golden standard of questioning their actions for getting themselves raped. There is nothing of any value to be taken from her actions, as the victim of a crime. It is across the board of Rape, as a crime.

People have a propensity to attack women for getting raped. Its been happening forever. Remnants of that old way of thinking are still very much affirmed in your posts, and others. As well as examples in our society;

http://www.thejournal.ie/judge-criticised-for-calling-rape-victims-behaviour-inviting-91057-Feb2011/
Judge criticised for calling rape victim’s behaviour “inviting”
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It is all the same rhetoric. They should know better. They should be more careful. Again, it promotes a horrible environment for understanding and prosecuting rape. Sure, if people were saying in general "people should be safe!" Great. Who wouldn't agree with that? Who doesn't know that? Who is it educating? Who are you helping?

Originally Posted by VahnSSR: View Post
Long story short, both are at fault. You shouldn't rape people nor should you be 16 getting drunk. However, Serena should have wordered it differently.
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At least you're in the same camp that the banned guy is in. I'm sure that feels wonderful.
 
She's only guilty of getting drunk, it ends right there. The rape is 100% the fault of the rapists.

Goddamn why do I even have to type this.
 
I don't know why some of you aren't applying your "you should take precautions" lectures to the rapists.

Going by that logic, if you see a drunk girl, you should treat her vagina like a bad alleyway and stay the fuck away from it.
 
This is worth reading. Links can be found in the text at the source:

Yesterday, the verdict was handed down in the Steubenville rape case. The defendants, Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, were found guilty. Mays will serve at least two years in the state juvenile system; Richmond was sentenced to at least one year. And the attorney general may also bring charges against others who turned a blind eye to the assault.

I feel great relief that I’m not writing about a “not guilt” verdict today. Justice was served–as best it could be by an imperfect system–in this case. Since it so often isn’t, that is something–not only for Jane Doe, who I hope has the support she surely needs right now, but also for the rest of us, who live in a rape culture that’s perpetuated each time someone commits sexual violence and is not held accountable.

But it’s hard to hold on to that sense of relief–to realize that this ending was the best one possible in this particular case–when the problem is so much bigger. Nearly everything about the case–from start to finish–reflects a world that I just really don’t want to live in anymore.

I don’t want to live in a world in which a mainstream media outlet reporting on the verdict barely mentions the victim in their rush to lament the fact that the “promising lives” of the defendants have been ruined and that this “will haunt them for the rest of their lives.” I want to live in a world in which negative consequences are considered the logical effect of committing a terrible crime, and a sentence for rape that is shorter than those regularly doled out for drug possession or downloading academic papers is viewed as pretty damn lenient.

I don’t want to live in a world in which girls are so well-schooled in the consequences they’re sure to face for speaking up about a sexual assault that the victim immediately tried to assure people that she “wasn’t being a slut” and initially didn’t want to name the defendants ”because I knew everyone would just blame me.” I don’t want to live in a world that proves these fears justified time and time again.

I don’t want to live in a world in which the victim’s former best friends testify against her. I don’t want to live in a world in which girls learn to slut-shame and victim-blame other girls in order to maintain a sense of false security for themselves. I want to live in a world in which we stick together and fight the forces that seek to split us apart, recognizing that victim-blaming anywhere makes us all less safe and less free.

I don’t want to live in a world in which a coach is seen as someone who will “take care of it” if his players are accused of rape. I don’t want to live in a world in which young athletes are treated like gods and arrogantly learn that there are no consequences for their bad behavior. I want to live in a world in which coaches take seriously the great and potentially wonderful influence they have in young people’s lives and act as valuable mentors who hold their players to high standards–on and off the field.

I don’t want to live in a world in which dozens of kids see a girl who was so drunk she was passing out and don’t take her home. I don’t want to live in a world in which kids see a girl who was so drunk she was puking and joke about urinating on her. I want to live in a world in which people can get too drunk–while out with friends or aquaintances or total strangers–and expect that they will be hungover, not sexually violated, in the morning. I want to live in a world in which girls have the right to be reckless and not get raped, and I want this to not be a controversial statement.

I don’t want to live in a world in which many people seem to truly believe that women must be constantly “aware of their surroundings” and vigilantly guarded against being taken advantage of, or else they bear “some accountability for the incident.” I don’t want to live in a world in which anyone believes that Mays and Richmond “did what most people in their situation would have done.” I don’t want to live in a world that assumes guys are naturally sexual aggressors who will opportunistically take advantage of an incapacitated girl, or forever push, push, push at the boundaries of consent until they hear a clear and forceful “no.” I want to live in a world that gives boys more credit than that.

I don’t want to live in a world in which a boy describes a girl as “like a dead body” yet still claims that the acts were consensual. I want to live in a world in which female sexual agency is respected and girls are seen as active and equal participants in sex, and so the idea that it would be at all unclear if someone had or had not consented would seem totally ludicrous. I want to live in a world in which it is universally assumed that no one except a rapist would want to have sex with someone who ”wasn’t participating.”

I don’t want to live in a world in which kids witness a rape in progress and record a video or take a photo instead of stopping it. I don’t want to live in a world in which a kid sees his friends assaulting an unconscious girl and claims that he didn’t intervene because he didn’t realize it was rape. “Well, it wasn’t violent,” Evan Westlake explained. ”I didn’t know exactly what rape was. I always pictured it as forcing yourself on someone.” I don’t want to live in a world in which this could ever be a believable excuse. I want to live in a world in which there is universal mandatory education on enthusiastic consent in schools and public figures do not make distinctions between “forcible rape” and other kinds of not-so-serious rape and the media clearly, unequivocally calls non-consensual sex what it is.

Ultimately, the perpetrators alone are held legally responsible for their actions. As they should be. But rapists are created, not born. And they are enabled by a culture that excuses their actions. It is hard, but not impossible, for me to muster much empathy for these boys–the ones convicted as well as the bystanders who watched–when they showed absolutely none for their victim. But again: “We socialize empathy out of boys all the time.” These kids are not particularly unique and Steubenville could be any town in America. And until we accept that we are collectively responsible for that, nothing will change.

We should all feel a little guilty today.
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If you're ever curious what feminists mean when they refer to rape culture, there's hardly a better example than everything that happened in Steubenville. Oh, and the football coach who participated in covering up the rape had his contract renewed. This is also a part of rape culture.
 
DeaconKnowledge said:
People are taking this "victim blaming" blaming way too far.
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No they aren't. You people are just pussies who want to be all "why can't we all just be friends and not complain about things." The world doesn't work that way. People SHOULD be called out when they say stupid shit that pretty much amount to "you shouldn't have been so slutty, you caused this yourself, you made them rape yourself."
 
commedieu said:
edit:

will read post in car, thug.
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I'm okay with this as long as you're not driving!

commedieu said:
Its already conceded, when I said she stated the obvious. I was very detailed. You might have missed it. I didn't say that people are excusing rapists. I haven't seen anyone make that argument either.

Your own words are illustrating a picture of a person that calls a woman who was raped some form of irresponsible. People are irresponsible, teenagers are very irresponsible. Now we can move on from that, the world we live in, and focus on the rape that happened, and you agreeing in any way shape or form with what she said.

She questions the time the boys got.
She says the girl is lucky, after being raped.
She then says the girl should have known better, to not put herself in situations where she might get raped on. Well, rape happens everywhere. Regardless of victims intent or actions.

I expect this from a Republican Senator, as recent events have shown all of us that some people quite don't understand Women, nature, and science. Someone who doesn't understand what rape is, its dated thinking. She still said that she shouldn't have been wearing the dress to prom. Yes, its very old world. Very detached from what rape is. I don't think any of us gain anything by conceding the obvious, while not having the temerity to acknowledging that it is insignificant in rape.

You're being intellectually dishonest about discussing rape if you think that there is any merit, any significance, found in this girls actions that resulted in her rape. People have to be careful to live. Others manipulate and take advantage of people. Those people, are the only criminals. They are the only people responsible for their actions on others.

Its pretty safe to say that I, like you, and everyone else, knows that if she didn't go outside of her room, she wouldn't have been raped. If she didn't have a beer, she wouldn't have got raped. If she had friends with her, she wouldn't have got raped. Now that we are here, it has no value. How do we continue from that realization? What way does it provide information to discuss? It doesn't.

A woman gets raped. This is a crime.
You say she shares the blame. Depending on the situation.

You guys have this illusion that it matters. She could have been at home and raped by her brother. Where do victims actions come into play there? It doesn't, yet there is still a rape, its still just as valid as a crime as this one. So why on earth must you add insult to rape by insinuating that she should have done life differently so she wasn't unpredictably raped?


I mean you have a beautiful moment of clarity right here. This is why it doesn't matter about victims actions when they are randomly raped.
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She put herself in an unfavorable situation by drinking too much. That is really nobody's fault but her own. She didn't necessarily make herself a victim, but being there in that state (allegedly piss-drunk) wasn't a bright move on her part and that's all I'm really saying. It's not her fault that those boys chose to take advantage of her, but it's her fault that she was drinking a dangerous amount.

I still don't get how I am "detached" from the notion of rape by acknowledging that this girl drank too much and passed out, which specifically is very much her fault. If the boys are to be held accountable for their particular actions, why isn't she responsible for hers? Is her misbehavior as egregious as that of the young men? Hell no, but it still wasn't wise. I'm not being intellectually dishonest by identifying which of her own actions literally put her in those young men's path. That's more honest than ignoring it and it's not automatically equating her role in the situation to the boys'. If you get raped walking down an alley at midnight, of course the attacker is at fault, but you probably shouldn't have taken that route. And that's not just because you got raped; if you were mugged or killed or anything else, it would be the same. It's a terrible way to learn a lesson like that, but such is, regrettably, life.

What way does it provide information to discuss? Well, we could start by examining parenting habits in the United States and the general lack of advice parents give their children regarding substances like alcohol and how to consume it responsibly and safely. I don't think that's unrelated to a discussion about rape when the rapists in this scenario were able to take advantage of her because she knocked herself out. There are many factors that indirectly led to this situation and they're not to simply be ignored because she was raped instead of something else.

If she was at home and raped by her mother, then sure, you can't say with as much basis that she put herself in a bad situation. But that's not what happened here. In this particular instance, it actually does matter that the girl acted irresponsibly (she doesn't get a pass for being 16...) because it gave these boys an opportunity to take advantage of her. They seized that opportunity - the act of rape is THEIR fault. Blacking out is hers.

Again, holding the girl responsible for drinking too much and holding the boys responsible for being shitbags are not mutually exclusive and that does not automatically mean I think the rape was her fault. It means I think drinking too much was her fault.

"So why on earth must you add insult to rape by insinuating that she should have done life differently so she wasn't unpredictably raped?"

I don't see it as adding insult when we're talking about a young girl who gave herself one of the lower forms of alcohol poisoning. She should not have drank that much, whether she got raped or woke up in the morning with nothing but a little puddle of vomit on the ground beside her. And, once more, that's not saying it's her fault she got raped - that's why it's not insulting. If you read it like that, it's your own problem. There are more than one social issues at play here, as is true with practically any violent criminal case. The greater offense may overshadow the lesser ones, but it does not negate them.

tmarques said:
I could understand saying women and teenagers should be more careful, but I don't see how anyone could possibly defend this part of Serena's quote -



So, a girl who was raped needs to accept she was at fault for putting herself in that position, but a boy who rapes a girl shouldn't be punished because boys will be boys?
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Yeah, I don't know what she's on about there. If anything, these kids got off too easy.

Fiction said:
How is 'Well, if you hadn't gotten drunk...' not blaming the victim?
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I guess it depends on what you're actually blaming them for. Blaming someone for putting themselves in a bad position and blaming them for actually being raped are not really the same thing.

Aodh said:
The girl put herself in a vulnerable situation. That wasn't a crime. The punks who raped her are the criminals. And celebrities who comment on things like this are just dumb. "No comment" will save them time and money.

And the media who swirl up controversy by getting these stupid comments are almost worse.

There is one victim here.
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Underage drinking is indeed a crime, but I get your point and agree that Serena should have just not said anything. That's difficult to manage in an interview, though, as interviewers generally butter you up to answer the more controversial questions and you don't really realize you sound silly until after the fact. Most of the time, they catch you when you don't have a lot of time to think about their question or haven't given the topic a lot of thought previously. "No comment" would have been the wiser move here, I agree.

Kazerei said:
1)No, not really, the actions of the girl have been under more discussion and scrutiny than the actions of the boys. Some people have actually been minimizing what the boys did, for example when Serena Williams describes it as "they did something stupid".

2)In general, there's lots of the discussion on what we should teach girls, and not what we should teach boys. You know how the Steubenville rapes could have been prevented? If they were taught "don't rape". They weren't inevitably evil rapists, they just grew up in a football community with shitty attitudes. If they were taught that fingering an unconscious person is rape, that it's a seriously heinous act, and that they will be punished for it, the rape could have been prevented. That's the sort of rape prevention we should be talking about.
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1) ITT, yeah, it's mostly been about that.

2) Agreed, though I think there's room for both approaches to education.

Keri said:
Promoting safety and personal responsibility is all well and good, but identifying that as the issue that needs attention or is of most importance, in the context of a rape, is ridiculous.  




Seeing this situation and choosing to discuss the victim's poor choices, rather than the rapists, reveals a disturbing bias and a severe misunderstanding of what "personal responsibility" means. (In this context, the rapist is personally responsible for the rape).
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I don't think that issue is of the most importance here. But it is important, it does need attention, and it is not ridiculous. I think someone who can't acknowledge that the girl is responsible for drinking too much is actually the one with a severe misunderstanding of what personal responsibility is.

Weiss said:
I never realized how naive I was about the rape issue. I always thought the "asking for it" defense was exclusively used by sleezy misogynist douchebags, and now I find otherwise reputable people saying the same thing and acting surprised when they're taken to task for it.
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It's not so much an instance of she was "asking for it" (though it might be for some people). Like foodtaster said, it's more about ensuring people know how to protect themselves or to avoid situations that make them extremely vulnerable. It gets dangerous when people misinterpret that as outright blaming the victim for being a victim.

On one hand, you have people who claim that acknowledging the girl's foolish action (drinking too much) as foolish is an attempt to sugar-coat the issue and detract from the guiltiness of the offenders. On the other, you have people who claim the girl blacking out means it was her fault. There's a middle ground here, I think, where you can say the boys are responsible for rape and the girl is responsible for dangerous drinking and address more than one of the issues that came into play here without discounting either of them. A lot of people, men and women alike, can learn from this girl's mistake and it will hopefully inform their decisions in the future to the point where they consciously avoid circumstances that open them up to be victimized. Certainly, there are cases where your preparation and caution still cannot provide the foresight to get out of the situation. I don't think that means we shouldn't strive to educate young men and women on how to best avoid being a victim. If that only helps people 1-20% of the time, that's still 1-20% less rape and other violent crime taking place.

I'm outta here, though. This is an extremely draining and tragic topic and I don't care to get banned.
 
Famassu said:
No they aren't. You people are just pussies who want to be all "why can't we all just be friends and not complain about things." The world doesn't work that way. People SHOULD be called out when they say stupid shit that pretty much amount to "you shouldn't have been so slutty, you caused this yourself, you made them rape yourself."
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Nobody is saying any of that.

You kind of just proved his point.
 
Promoting safety and personal responsibility is all well and good, but identifying that as the issue that needs attention or is of most importance, in the context of a rape, is ridiculous.

Seeing this situation and choosing to discuss the victim's poor choices, rather than the rapists, reveals a disturbing bias and a severe misunderstanding of what "personal responsibility" means. (In this context, the rapist is personally responsible for the rape).
 
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