terribletwo
Member
those boys should have learned how to ask for it. smh
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Serena Williams On Steubenville: "I'm Not Blaming The Girl But ..."
- Thread starter WascallyWabbit
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But that's not the case.
The actions of the boys have been under constant discussion since this indecent came to public attention. However, this thread is about Serena Williams' comments about the girl, so of course she is the frame for this debate.
No, not really, the actions of the girl have been under more discussion and scrutiny than the actions of the boys. Some people have actually been minimizing what the boys did, for example when Serena Williams describes it as "they did something stupid".
In general, there's lots of the discussion on what we should teach girls, and not what we should teach boys. You know how the Steubenville rapes could have been prevented? If they were taught "don't rape". They weren't inevitably evil rapists, they just grew up in a football community with shitty attitudes. If they were taught that fingering an unconscious person is rape, that it's a seriously heinous act, and that they will be punished for it, the rape could have been prevented. That's the sort of rape prevention we should be talking about.
not psycho
Member
Exactly. I'm all for education about the meaning of consent, education about the risks of blacking out due to alcohol, all kinds of education. Kids have a lot to gain from education.
That's not what this is, and it is impossible to interpret it that way. Saying the rapists did "something stupid" (that would be rape) and 1 or 2 years is unfairly harsh on them is not educating us about anything except Serena Williams being an idiot on the subject of rape.
And taking the golden opportunity of a victim being sent death threats and blame, and initially not even wanting to proceed because she knew she would be blamed, taking that as an opportunity to call her out for getting drunk and saying she is lucky she only got raped, and did I mention the rapists shouldn't have even got the easy 1 or 2 years they did get, is not the right time or place.
Black-Wind
Member
Hyperbole ...
Off the top of my head, here's things women and men can do to avoid being put in shitty positions when going out and having fun ...
When drinking, never leave your drink alone or away from you as to avoid being drugged. Know your limits so that you're not COMPLETELY zombie mode drunk. Stay with a group a friends so that if either of the above happen you have someone looking out for you. If someone you don't know well invites you to go to another bar or location without your friends then turn them down. And most of all, pay attention to that voice in your head saying "Maybe I shouldn't do this or go here ...".
Like I said, that goes for both men and women. Yeah, people should NEVER do things like rape/ mug/ murder/ scam/ molest or so on ... but it is always your job to look out for your best interest. Doesn't mean bad things happening to you are ok, just means that SOMETIMES there are bad things that happen to you that could have been avoided had you made different decisions in how to take care of yourself.
What's not the case?
A large portion of the discussion concerning Steubenville has been focused on the actions of the victim, rather than the rapists. This is a common occurrence, when it comes to cases of rape and we should all be asking ourselves why this is what people want to talk about. This is what Serena Williams chose to comment on, when asked about it, and that reflects poorly on her. In her eyes, the most important issues (worthy of comment) is the fact that the victim was drinking.
Now, people in this thread are defending her statement and trying to ignore the context. The context is important and it reveals Serena Williams bias. The only way the statement is defensible, is if you try to remove it completely from the context in which it was said and that can't be done.
Rape should never be a remote risk from getting drunk. Especially for a 16 year old.
User 100115
Banned
Except you are more likely to be raped by a friend than a stranger. Solution: Don't have friends?
I will flip the deflection into bizarro: Those boys shouldn't have gone to a party where 16 year-olds were getting drunk, they'd rape them.
Rape is rape.
Unfortunately there can be little shades in there. You can blame this person or that person: the girl for going; what she is wearing, the guy for going, for not controlling his dick. I hate thinking of it as innocent (and not in this case!) but sometimes drunk people get together and do stupid shit. When someone says no or is obviously not into it that is flat out wrong. In addition to that, taking advantage of someone that may be inebriated on a whole other level than you is bad too.
Ultimately nobody really (in their right might) asks to be raped. Especially not in this case. With this case in mind not only was the rape disgusting, but the way the party thought it was funny and then the massive cover ups.
Rape is rape.
Unfortunately there can be little shades in there. You can blame this person or that person: the girl for going; what she is wearing, the guy for going, for not controlling his dick. I hate thinking of it as innocent (and not in this case!) but sometimes drunk people get together and do stupid shit. When someone says no or is obviously not into it that is flat out wrong. In addition to that, taking advantage of someone that may be inebriated on a whole other level than you is bad too.
Ultimately nobody really (in their right might) asks to be raped. Especially not in this case. With this case in mind not only was the rape disgusting, but the way the party thought it was funny and then the massive cover ups.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
Yeah this is a good point. What irked me most reading some responses is that it seemed like getting blacked out drunk was being downplayed, read one where someone said "she should be able to get reckless" and I was thinking "hell no, what if she got behind the wheel of a car and killed someone"? But as you point out I am ignoring the main issue, which is the inexcusable actions of the rapists.
Choose better friends?
User 100115
Banned
Because we can tell when a guy is going to rape us before hand?
Seriously. It's so goddamn condescending having people tell me I should avoid these situations without understanding that instead of focusing on what I'm doing, how about we focus on educating people NOT to rape.
Black-Wind
Member
"Friends" ... more than one. I doubt a group of friends are all gonna rape you and even if there's a shitty one in the group there are others there to that are likely not shitty rapist.
And I also doubt a group of female friends are just gonna up and rape one of their friends.
But lets keep chipping away at this ...
rocketknight
Member
Now it's women's fault that they don't know their guy friends are rapists until their friends rape them? I seriously don't even understand what you think you're trying to convey with this. Nobody is ever like, well this guy seems pretty likely to rape me, I'll befriend him.
Guys aren't the only rapists.
And it wasn't meant to be a serious reply.
Your friend could turn out to be an axe murderer one day too.
In no way was I trying to blame the victim.
It was just a quick comment.
OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather
Member
User 100115
Banned
So no guy friends then. Gotcha. And always stay in a group and never hang out with just one person.
And yet if they axe murder me I won't be blamed for what I wear or how much I drank or who I hung out with.
My opinion is that if there were more opportunities for consensual sex, the incidence of rape might be reduced. This is something that's explored by Alan Dean Foster in his SF book Quozl. The situation is certainly not helped by the fact that things like religion and abstinence education programmes demonize sex.
Black-Wind
Member
She's not a moron, she just doesn't speak as if every word she says will be inspected and debated about by others. It hasn't stopped her from getting to where she is now so I understand why she doesn't do it.
So youre saying you should not do any thing at all?
A seat belt wont prevent death in most traffic accidents, does that mean you arent gonna wear a seatbelt?
Your shit-advice wouldn't prevent even a fraction of the rapes that happen, dude. It's nice to moralize about "common sense steps to keep yourself save" or however you want to frame it, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of rapes have nothing to do with women not looking out for their best interest.
As an aside: the way people respond to stories like this on the internet is what ultimately managed to convince me that rape culture exists a couple years back. Every single fucking time I see a story about sexual assault or rape, there's someone handing out unrequested advice to keep women safe. Every time.
User 100115
Banned
*sigh*
No. But no matter what precautions I take, someone will still say 'Welp, shouldn't have been doing this or that!' if I get raped.
Maybe the world is trying to rationalize around the evil deed of the rapist. There is always someone that would rather blame a 'tempting wanton' than believe someone else had the capacity for darkness to take hold and commit a vile act.
I don't have any numbers to shed light on which party in this incident is being discussed more. Was just pointing out that, for the purposes of this thread, there's a concrete reason for why discussion is centered around the girl.
As for the bolded, I would say that any type of rape prevention is something we should be talking about. And I think something that's rubbing people the wrong way in this thread. The expectation that only the actions of the boys be discussed is reaching such a point that some people feel that there is a missed opportunity to discuss the girl's behavior within the context of making safer and smarter choices.
Being raped was not this girl's fault at all, but I'm not going to lie: when I first read about this my FIRST thought was "why was this girl with these teenage boys, alone, and drinking to the point of total incapacitation? Why would she do that?" And this thought didn't cross my mind because I was looking for a reason to blame the girl (not at all, these boys are complete scum and should have been persecuted to the full extent of the law). No, this thought was immediately followed by the harrowing realization that this girl probably ended up with these boys pissed drunk because she didn't think anything like this could happen to her.
And that's the scary thing to me. We get so caught up in filling kids' heads with platitudes and should-be-obvious ideas about what the world should be like, that we neglect to inform them of what this world is. And what this world is is completely unfair and potentially dangerous. And when I get older and have children of my own you better believe that I'm going to teach my boys that no real man resorts to committing violence against another person, period; and I'm going to teach my girls that no man is to ever talk down to them, disrespect them, or touch them in any way they're not comfortable with. But, as much as I'm going to teach them these things, I'm going to also give them the common-sense, "life isn't fair, so the best thing you can do is protect yourself and not be fucking stupid" kind of advice that they need to hear.
You're ignoring the part where she said she was unsure whether the rapists deserved their punishment though.
Assign blame to criminals and criminals alone, while increasing awareness for existing and potential victims and letting them make their own informed decisions about their behavior. If that's wearing a tight dress and getting drunk, so be it. If that's walking down an alley alone at night, so fucking be it.
Don't shame victims, don't blame victims. It's none of your business.
The end.
Don't shame victims, don't blame victims. It's none of your business.
The end.
No need for hyperbole. Obviously you arent gonna tell a girl 'Oh yeah walk home alone at night, and make sure you take that back alley shortcut with all the crackheads.'
Black-Wind
Member
Nope, I said "FRIENDSSSSSSSS". (I pointed out female friends because you tossed out the bit about being more likely to be raped by a friend ... even though I never pointed out a gender in that part)
As in, a group of people you can trust to some degree to have your best interest in mind. You're out at a party and one of your friends might rape you? Good thing you have friends of either gender that you can stick around that will likely keep this rapist friend from trying to rape you ... unless it's common for people to be raped well having a group of friends in the room with them. I wouldn't know, I haven't done the research on group-think/ bystander effect in the case of friends-allowing-each-other-to-be-raped. I could very well be wrong and it's common place for males to allow women they care about to be drugged and raped by that female's friends.
rocketknight
Member
Parents tell their kids this stuff all the time (hopefully). But high school and college kids are still going to go to parties and (gasp) drink, sometimes more than they should. This girl didn't do anything terribly out of the ordinary - she went to a party with her friends and peers and classmates, and drank too much. I've done that. Most people I know have done that. Maybe you've done that. If you have kids, they might do that. People shitting on this girl are singling her out for doing totally normal teenage things as if intelligent, reasonable people don't ever do those things, which is absurd.
And don't accuse people of shaming and blaming when they're just stating facts without judgement, you effing. aholes.
*disarming smile*
"you need to know this" not "why didn't you do this its all your fault omg"
Even with the best of intentions, focusing on the victim's failure to protect herself (rather than the rapist's responsibility for victimizing another person) contributes to the underreporting of the crime. Women know that this is the normal response to this crime and they internalize the message that being raped, above all else, demonstrates that they failed. So they don't tell anyone.
This is why the message of personal safety, in this context is offensive and dangerous.
Teach girls to be safe. Teach them to avoid irresponsible drinking. Yes. But don't frame the lesson as: "Not doing these things is what causes rape."
freenudemacusers
Member
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/06/17/richmond-teen-gang-rape-victim-testifies-at-trial/
I mean come on dude, do women need to ensure a 50/50 split of "I know he won't rape me" and "I don't know if he will rape me" peers everywhere they go?
Well yes, her being in Compton was her own fault.
User 100115
Banned
That's not hyperbole. And no, I wouldn't tell someone that, but if she did and happened to get raped I damn sure wouldn't say 'Well, if she hadn't been walking down a dark alley, what did she expect?'
foodtaster
Banned
I do not disagree with the consensus of this thread which says that Serena's comment regarding the punishment is ridiculous, which is why I did not comment on it. However, the idea that victims have absolutely no part is also ridiculous. A good example of this is Neighborhood Watch. Neighborhoods with Neighborhood Watch institute curfew's for children and young teens to be protected. It's definitely NOT their fault if some bad person gets them, however they are responsible for doing the smart thing and not going out at night where the chances of attack are significantly higher, noted by the existence of a Neighborhood Watch in the first place, which only exists in high-risk neighborhoods.
Also, I'm not suggesting that this information be shared with the victim, I'm saying the information should be shared with at-risk groups, and for this thread that group would be women.
Black-Wind
Member
... Oh, you thought I was talking about GENERAL rape? Nope, I'm pretty damn sure most rapes aren't caused by women going out and drinking. But in the context of my post I was pointing out things you can do to keep yourself safe "when going out to parties/ bars" so that you don't end up in a shit position. That goes for both men and women and is pretty relevant to this case and this topic.
User 100115
Banned
What, may I ask, are most rapes caused by?
Well, it wasnt violent, Evan Westlake explained. I didnt know exactly what rape was. I always pictured it as forcing yourself on someone.
Perhaps if they had known it was rape they wouldn't have done it. Perhaps if their friends had known it was rape, they would have intervened. Perhaps if we did a better job of teaching boys (and girls) about affirmative consent, they wouldn't have assumed that the absence of a "no" was a license to do whatever they wanted. Perhaps if we did a better job of teaching empathy these boys would have been able to put themselves in her position.
But no, let's talk about how she got drunk. If she hadn't been drunk, perhaps she wouldn't have been in a vulnerable position and perhaps she wouldn't have been raped. But why was she still raped in a party full of people? Why did those kids feel that it was okay to record video of it? Why did they feel it was okay to joke about pissing on her? Why did no one say that what they were doing wasn't okay? Those are the questions that need answering, not these lame, "But she shouldn't have been drinking!" comments.
Perhaps if they had known it was rape they wouldn't have done it. Perhaps if their friends had known it was rape, they would have intervened. Perhaps if we did a better job of teaching boys (and girls) about affirmative consent, they wouldn't have assumed that the absence of a "no" was a license to do whatever they wanted. Perhaps if we did a better job of teaching empathy these boys would have been able to put themselves in her position.
But no, let's talk about how she got drunk. If she hadn't been drunk, perhaps she wouldn't have been in a vulnerable position and perhaps she wouldn't have been raped. But why was she still raped in a party full of people? Why did those kids feel that it was okay to record video of it? Why did they feel it was okay to joke about pissing on her? Why did no one say that what they were doing wasn't okay? Those are the questions that need answering, not these lame, "But she shouldn't have been drinking!" comments.
Unfortunately it is a risk, which is why anyone should be cautious when drinking, or at least have a sober friend watching your back. Same goes for guys too...
I wouldnt say it, only cause Id assume that everyone would already be thinking it.
foodtaster
Banned
Neighborhood Watch does exist in gated communities as well, but primarily they're in high risk (but not necessarily neighborhoods that have been affected highly) neighborhoods. Point taken in any case, though.
freenudemacusers
Member
Seriously.
Black-Wind
Member
Already kinda pointed this out ...
It says "childhood friend" not "friend since childhood" so I'm guessing he was someone she use to know.
And again, this isn't some "rules for women". It's for both genders.
It's not like I, as a 25yo chocolate man, just run around without a care in the world because these rules don't apply to me and my safety is locked down via having balls. I have had bad shit happen to me and as it was happening I knew I could have avoided it. I had to learn that there are simply ways you can make yourself less of a target in certain environments. I follow those listed rules myself.
This is how a lot of people respond to rape and this is exactly the problem. The act of committing rape is somehow more understandable and normal in our society, than any other detail surrounding these cases. People pass over the rape without question and ask "how/why did the girl let this happen?" Not, "how could these boys have thought this was OK?"
Somehow the fact that a teenage girl got drunk at a party is more ridiculous and bizarre than a group of boys raping a girl.
The intention might not be to excuse or downplay the actions of the rapists, but this response could only exist in a society that downplays and excuses rape.
WonkyPanda
Member
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