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[Gekkonidae]

That's exactly how it is, infact.
It really really saddens me to hear Sakurai believing this shit. I think he just refuses to accept the reality about Melee, really. He wants to justify a game where it is harder to always win on beginners: except it happened in brawl too anyway (lolmetaknight)

In my group of friends, at least, we had a lot more success plopping new players in a Brawl match than in a Melee match. We couldn't play Melee without alienating those of us who already were good at it; in my experience, that issue was resolved in Brawl.

I think that difference is what Sakurai is referring to.

 

[RawkHawk2010]

I agree, these pictures literally add zero value. They don't contribute any discussion.

Yeah, there are plenty of ways to make them actually interesting without revealing unconfirmed stuff.

How hard is it to have Pics of the Day be around that calibur? And no, fear of running out of funny situations shouldn't be an excuse, or else that says some very unflattering things about the game itself.

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Just the fact that ssb4 is in hd is upgrade enough for me. It'll look so much better than Brawl just because of that (besides having better textures and colors).

 

[Blizzard]

New pic of the day:

This is one of the (few?) Villager images where he DOESN'T look creepy, to me.

 

[Anth0ny]

Ono has said very similar things - it's why SFxT experiment with simplified super motions, for instance. Melee may be beloved by competitive players, but the things he talks about - random elements, simple controls - they're barrier to entry problems acknowledged by many others. Smash is a game that a 5-6yo should be able to pick up and have fun with, and you have to design accordingly. That's why they veered away from Melee's hyper-fast speed- it was a legitimate problem.

no it wasn't

in melee, kids just wanted to pick link and press up b. they did.

in brawl, kids just wanted to pick link and press up b. they did.

in melee, I could pick fox and make someone feel like they don't want to live on this planet anymore.

in brawl, I could pick meta knight and make someone feel like they don't want to live on this planet anymore.

it's all the fucking same. sakurai is dumb.

 

[fisheyes]

Yeah, there are plenty of ways to make them actually interesting without revealing unconfirmed stuff.


How hard is it to have Pics of the Day be around that calibur? And no, fear of running out of funny situations shouldn't be an excuse, or else that says some very unflattering things about the game itself.

Since I don't have a WiiU, I'm not really sure, but is this the first time they've shown Villager in a Miiverse screenshot? Not everyone with a WiiU is going to have seen the trailer or gone on the website, so maybe they are starting with more 'simple' images of the new characters for those people?

 

[daxgame]

In my group of friends, at least, we had a lot more success plopping new players in a Brawl match than in a Melee match. We couldn't play Melee without alienating those of us who already were good at it; in my experience, that issue was resolved in Brawl.

I think that difference is what Sakurai is referring to.

Thanks for the story but it's really anecdotal. Hell, my wife can't care less, has played both, feels just that one is slower than the other.

Also I don't get what you mean by "We couldn't play Melee without alienating those of us who already were good at it; " uh? Why would you alienate them?

no it wasn't

in melee, kids just wanted to pick link and press up b. they did.

in brawl, kids just wanted to pick link and press up b. they did.

in melee, I could pick fox and make someone feel like they don't want to live on this planet anymore.

in brawl, I could pick meta knight and make someone feel like they don't want to live on this planet anymore.

it's all the fucking same. sakurai is dumb.

yes that's what it has been for my "casual" friends (many of them don't even own videogame consoles)

what's funny is that, indeed, in the end it isn't going to matter. Good players will find a way to destroy the others anyway if they want, exploiting the better characters. That's also due to his stubbornness about balancing ( I remember him saying that Brawl was balanced "in another way" ) which makes me lol.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah but Brawl altered a lot of mechanics specifically to damage competitive play instead of just making it more accessible to the common crowd and finding a middle ground.

The game is always going to be balanced around 4-player scramble mode w/ items on though. The competitive Smash problem is that after having to turn off items in Melee (due to the booby trapped ones) they now play a version of the game that's completely foreign to the other 95%+ of other people playing the game.

it's all the fucking same. sakurai is dumb.

When I picked up Melee for the first time, I had a very negative reaction to it, coming from SSB64. It got better over time, but the movement game felt radically different (because, well, it was.)

 

[Aeriscloud]

This is one of the (few?) Villager images where he DOESN'T look creepy, to me.

He's already killed everyone. This is his world now.

 

[RM8]

I'm pretty sure casual players didn't care about Melee's supposedly unacceptable speed, lol. That being said I didn't hate Brawl's slower gameplay, so I'll be fine with this game.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I decided to reread the article. There are few things that bothered me the most.

Tripping, a seemingly random mechanic that causes fighters to slip and fall during battle, introduced an element of randomness into each fight. But while tripping is out, randomness is something Sakurai feels is still an important part of the Smash Bros. series.

So I guess they might add sneezing in the game so it would keep the randomness in the battles?

However, exactly what you can customize remains a mystery. I inferred a sort of Pokemon Stadium situation, where you level up your characters in the handheld version before transferring them to the console version to battle. When presented with this idea, Sakurai considered it for a moment before stating, "Perhaps the best way to think of it is: it's not the strength of the attacks that change--their power--but the directionality of those attacks will change with customization." Read into that what you will.

I can't help but being concerned about that comment. I wonder if they are going with new variation of sticker (Brawl), customized move set (to change the setting of moveset with direction input) or actually customized moveset.

However, this might be just the tip of the iceberg. Growing the fighting game genre could mean changing the way we think about fighting games altogether. "I think the idea of the fighting game genre can be somewhat limiting. People have defined in their own minds what constitutes a fighting game, and that can be such a specific set of characteristics that when other people are viewing a game from the outside and they learn it's a fighting game, they may predetermine it's not for them simply because of what they expect from it as a fighting game."

I definitely would agreed with his genre. Most of time, it's actually battle royal genre for me and my friends because we played 4 players so often in Brawl, opposite comparing to Melee which many people would preferred 1 vs 1.

 

[daxgame]

The game is always going to be balanced around 4-player scramble mode w/ items on though. The competitive Smash problem is that after having to turn off items in Melee (due to the booby trapped ones) they now play a version of the game that's completely foreign to the other 95%+ of other people playing the game.

No it isn't. When I played online in random matches I could rape anyone with Snakes' tilts alone. Items didn't made any difference as I was able to catch them and the others weren't anyway.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

The game is always going to be balanced around 4-player scramble mode w/ items on though. The competitive Smash problem is that after having to turn off items in Melee (due to the booby trapped ones) they now play a version of the game that's completely foreign to the other 95%+ of other people playing the game.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'm not sure how people who play without items affect those who want to play with them.

 

[kirblar]

I'm pretty sure casual players didn't care about Melee's supposedly unacceptable speed, lol. That being said I didn't hate Brawl's slower gameplay, so I'll be fine with this game.

Most people aren't aware of how much slower it is, because they play a mode of the game where there are 4 people and items on.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'm not sure how people who play without items affect those who want to play with them.

They don't. What I'm saying is that they do not balance with the items off, and that if you think that they should, then you have a very warped perception of the game.

So I guess they might add sneezing in the game so it would keep the randomness in the battles?

Variance is a good thing. But it has to be neutral. Items are neutral- sometimes they help you, sometimes they help your opponent. But it helps make each game different and exciting.

Things like Booby Traps and Tripping, though, they only affect players negatively, and thus lead to a lot of irritation/anger for no good reason at all.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The only items I keep off are the heart container (I prefer M Tomato's low recovery), hammer/super hammer, the star, the fan in Brawl, and that 3-part machine thing.

Also is "are there new characters yet" the new "are we there yet"? Because I have that feeling :/

 

[KittenMaster]

The game is always going to be balanced around 4-player scramble mode w/ items on though. The competitive Smash problem is that after having to turn off items in Melee (due to the booby trapped ones) they now play a version of the game that's completely foreign to the other 95%+ of other people playing the game.

The game being designed for items in mind isn't why competitive play was messed up. Melee & Smash Bros 1 were designed with items in mind, but they did just fine. It was because they added tripping which punished the simple act of moving on the ground at all and also overtuned the defensive mechanics to the point where sometimes you only have a few frames of animation where you can hit somebody (which also slows the game down even more than the slowed down game speed is supposed to). They also managed to remove combos while overlooking chain grabs (which are incredibly anti-casual as well), which heavily skews which characters are favorable.

 

[Anth0ny]

When I picked up Melee for the first time, I had a very negative reaction to it, coming from SSB64. It got better over time, but the movement game felt radically different (because, well, it was.)

sure, but my point is no matter how much sakurai feels like he needs to cater to beginner players, in the end it doesn't even matter. good players will stomp scrubby players in ANY game, in ANY mode.

not to mention the fact that the competitive, hardcore players of his games are the ones keeping it alive for the 5+ year gaps between games. but yeah aim the game at lowest common denominator people who will play it once or twice in their lives that literally play games like this...

...i'm sure they really appreciate it.

 

[Boken]

why wouldnt they balance without items off?

items on is meant to be the default fun party mode

who cares about balance

 

[daxgame]

why wouldnt they balance without items off?

items on is meant to be the default fun party mode

who cares about balance

Make sure to add me when SmashU comes out. I'll show you what bad balance does. Just don't quit the game if I chaingrab you - even if items are on - though, please.

 

[vareon]

So I guess they might add sneezing in the game so it would keep the randomness in the battles?

You're reading too much into detail into an interview. Remember what Sakurai said can be lost in translation, editing, or even from Sakurai's mind himself. I'm of the opinion that Sakurai wants a certain element of unpredictability in the game, but tripping is way too random for that.

Funnily, I have played hundreds of hours of Brawl alone and with friends, and nobody ever said anything about tripping. I guess competitive scene must be really different.

 

[Boken]

Make sure to add me when SmashU comes out. I'll show you what bad balance does. Just don't quit the game if I chaingrab you - even if items are on - though, please.

thats a flawed argument because balancing with items off would catch chain grabs as broken itself

maybe youre confused

im not saying they shouldnt balance the game, im saying they should balance them around the characters and the games themselves, rather than the random elements of items

 

[FluxWaveZ]

why wouldnt they balance without items off?

items on is meant to be the default fun party mode

who cares about balance

Items won't do much if there's a character so insanely powerful that everyone flocks to them and wins games despite the presence of items. Not to mention that seeing the same character online all the time and having to suffer through their overpowered nature or never seeing a certain character being played because they're useless would be insanely dumb.

Balance is important.

 

[Vaztor]

I also believe that items do play a role in the balance of the game and balance of characters.

I think the Final Smash is a great and obvious testament to that. After all, a Final Smash IS a part of a character's moveset. Then you start to take into account frame count on swinging, say, the home run bat for each and every character. There's also jumping speed that makes some characters better suited for more hazardous stages. The developers I'm sure have to take all of these things into consideration when balancing the game.

 

[Boken]

Items won't do much if there's a character so insanely powerful that everyone flocks to them and wins games despite the presence of items. Not to mention that seeing the same character online all the time and having to suffer through their overpowered nature or never seeing a certain character being played because they're useless would be insanely dumb.

Balance is important.

did i write what i meant so poorly that everybody thinks im advocating no balance?

im saying

they should balance with items OFF

so an overpowered character would be brought into line anyway

 

[Berordn]

The most interesting thing about that villager screenshot is that it confirms that Smashville 2.0 is based on City Folk rather than New Leaf, and that's a darned shame.

Funnily, I have played hundreds of hours of Brawl alone and with
friends, and nobody ever said anything about tripping. I guess competitive scene must be really different.

My friends and I were more amused by the fact tripping was a thing rather than how detrimental it was. It wasn't until a year later or so when we started playing half-seriously that we started getting annoyed by how common it was, but we did such low-level play that it never really affected us.

 

[Revven]

why wouldnt they balance without items off?

items on is meant to be the default fun party mode

who cares about balance

Meta Knight says hi. He would still be insanely dominant with items on. And I guarantee you people who picked him in casual play and fought against him had similar experiences to those in tournaments with items off.

The character is dominant in BOTH sides of play. Balance matters.

Edit: Oh just saw your above post. Ignore what I said.

 

[RM8]

Most people aren't aware of how much slower it is, because they play a mode of the game where there are 4 people and items on.

I play both lulz-ish and also competitively (I enjoy the game twice as much as the people who pick sides ) and I really don't mind Brawl's speed as someone who played a ton of Melee and 64.

Speed-wise it's like going from Street Fighter Alpha 2 to Super Street Fighter IV, I'm also okay with that.

 

[KittenMaster]

thats a flawed argument because balancing with items off would catch chain grabs as broken itself

Even with items on they should have noticed chain grabs. They go through the trouble to adjust the frame data so that it's impossible to combo, but they somehow manage to ignore that chain grabbing exists (it was in Melee) especially since players figured out DDD's chain grab five minutes after the game released.

I don't mind when chain grabs are a core of a character like Ice Climbers, but for DDD it's broken due to how easy it is to grab with him.

 

[Revven]

They go through the trouble to adjust the frame data so that it's impossible to combo

But they didn't do this... they just enabled you to cancel hitstun with an air dodge.

 

[RM8]

Dedede's chaingrab doesn't mean instant death, though. If the ICs grab you, you're done even if you're at 0%, that really needs to go in my opinion.

 

[KittenMaster]

But they didn't do this... they just enabled you to cancel hitstun with an air dodge.

Oh right.

Dedede's chaingrab doesn't mean instant death, though. If the ICs grab you, you're done even if you're at 0%, that really needs to go in my opinion.

It does if you're Mario or Luigi, and it's worse since DDD is so much better in every other way. I agree with you on ICs not needing to have 0% to death infinites, but at least it takes a bit more finesse.

 

[IntelliHeath]

The only items I keep off are the heart container (I prefer M Tomato's low recovery), hammer/super hammer, the star, the fan in Brawl, and that 3-part machine thing.

Also is "are there new characters yet" the new "are we there yet"? Because I have that feeling :/

We might not hear anything for two months so buckle yourself for a long ride.

You're reading too much into detail into an interview. Remember what Sakurai said can be lost in translation, editing, or even from Sakurai's mind himself. I'm of the opinion that Sakurai wants a certain element of unpredictability in the game, but tripping is way too random for that.

Funnily, I have played hundreds of hours of Brawl alone and with friends, and nobody ever said anything about tripping. I guess competitive scene must be really different.

It was just a joke..

 

[Thorakai]

The most interesting thing about that villager screenshot is that it confirms that Smashville 2.0 is based on City Folk rather than New Leaf, and that's a darned shame.

I'm disappointed that the stage is essentially the same floating platforms hovering over the village motif like in Brawl. I want to fight in the village itself with the townfolk living life in the background and getting caught in the crossfire every so often, add some changing seasons and weather as well.

 

[Kurtofan]

The most interesting thing about that villager screenshot is that it confirms that Smashville 2.0 is based on City Folk rather than New Leaf, and that's a darned shame.
.

Probably the 3DS version will be based on New Leaf.

Brawl's was based on Wild World right?

 

[georly]

You're reading too much into detail into an interview. Remember what Sakurai said can be lost in translation, editing, or even from Sakurai's mind himself. I'm of the opinion that Sakurai wants a certain element of unpredictability in the game, but tripping is way too random for that.

Funnily, I have played hundreds of hours of Brawl alone and with friends, and nobody ever said anything about tripping. I guess competitive scene must be really different.

I think the randomness is items. It's more fun w/ items because the game can be so unpredictable. The same with mario kart. It gives people who aren't as good a chance to win. People who want to win all the time can either get REEEEAAAALLLY good to the point where random items dont matter, or play in modes w/out items and with other people of the same mentality. But i'm personally totally ok if a 7 year old beats me because he got good items, because it makes that 7 year old really happy.

 

[Shadow Hog]

So that "directionality" comment - what I'm taking from it is that you customize your character's moveset to some extent, with different moves for the same input doing the same damage, but behaving differently, affecting things like range, angle of attack, etc.

In other words, the competitive side are going to have a lot of fun analyzing tiers now, trying to find an "ideal" custom moveset.

 

[daxgame]

did i write what i meant so poorly that everybody thinks im advocating no balance?

im saying

they should balance with items OFF

so an overpowered character would be brought into line anyway

lol
indeed you confused me

why wouldnt they balance without items off

I thought you were saying that they should balance with items on ("without items off")

of course yes they should balance with items off....

 

[Berordn]

Probably the 3DS version will be based on New Leaf.

Brawl's was based on Wild World right?

That's a fair point, since Isabelle shows up in the initial trailer. And Brawl's Smashville was based on a Wild World town, yeah.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I really hope that he's in the game.

 

[Boss Doggie]

The most interesting thing about that villager screenshot is that it confirms that Smashville 2.0 is based on City Folk rather than New Leaf, and that's a darned shame.

I thought that's a given from the early shots, what with the city being the background in some of the shots.

 

[rmanthorp]

Killler. I think balance is important in ANY game and ANY game mode. No amount of party game or serious game is any fun when it is unbalanced. I don't care about competitive smash but I fucking hate when people play MetaKnight.

 

[Berordn]

I thought that's a given from the early shots, what with the city being the background in some of the shots.

Yeah, that's right. I remember bringing that up to someone now, guess I forgot about it.

Still a bit disappointing but now I can at least hold out hope for the 3DS version.

 

[rmanthorp]

I really hope that he's in the game.

Yes X 10000

 

[KittenMaster]

If it makes you feel better Boken, I understood your post the second time I read it.

 

[Kouichi]

I like that Smash Bros. gives us options.

If I want to play competitively, I can turn off items and fight on an even playing ground. If I want to play with friends locally, I turn all items on and go nuts.

Tripping got in the way of the former and that's why I hated it. It was hilarious in the latter though.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Being able to customize movesets has always been something I've wanted in SSB, since before Brawl was released. I'd love if that was the customization he was referring too. Imagine playing Mario on your 3DS version, going through the story mode or whatever, and unlocking cool moves. Then you can customize him and pop him onto your WiiU to play with friends. Maybe you unlocked a new B-up so he uses the F.L.U.D.D. jetpack instead of the punch. And you swapped out his bouncing fireballs for an attack that shoots starbits. But then your friend uploads his Kirby, who swapped Final Cutter for Hi-Jump Kirby and instead of having Hammer Kirby on Side-B, he has Fireball Kirby. It would lead to many, many, many more balance problems, but it would open up the door to so much.

The other thing I've always dreamed of was Alternate Forms for characters. You would have the normal "Four costumes per character" with the same attack, but you could also switch to a different form of your character after unlocking them, one that plays completely differently. So when you start a match, you move your chip to Mario. But to mix things up, you change your Mario Form. You skip over Dr. Mario and go straight for Paper Mario, who has a whole different moveset and is much floatier. Kirby could have Yarn Kirby. Zero Suit Samus would become a new Samus form. This would allow the introduction of characters that were really similar, or in effect the same, without having to clog up the main roster list with too many people that would be knocked as "clones." Another option could be to reuse Fox, Falco, and Wolf down to one character, just Fox, but with Fox and Wolf (and hell, why not more?) forms you can switch between. I don't think this will actually happen, though. I should be clear about that. It would be a massive increase in the number of characters if everyone was just given one extra form. I just think it would be my ideal way to balance the desire for more characters against the limits of double-dipping in a character or cloning, which always bugs people.

 

[Kurtofan]

I really hope that he's in the game.

Is he first party?

Yeah, that's right. I remember bringing that up to someone now, guess I forgot about it.

Still a bit disappointing but now I can at least hold out hope for the 3DS version.

What's wrong with New City? I haven't played it.

 

[shouamabane]

One step closer to having the entire Captain N cast of characters in the game. I like it.

 

[Berordn]

What's wrong with New City? I haven't played it.

It's essentially the same game as Wild World, except most of the new features Wild World had you unlock at some point are just ripped out of it and added to the new City area, where not terribly much happens. And then it introduced grass decay which was just terrible.

It's not an awful game, but as far as sequels go it didn't really do... anything.

 

[Aeriscloud]

not to mention the fact that the competitive, hardcore players of his games are the ones keeping it alive for the 5+ year gaps between games. but yeah aim the game at lowest common denominator people who will play it once or twice in their lives that literally play games like this...

So I'm to assume these hardcore play melee or brawl daily? When you say "hardcore players," do you mean those that compete in tournaments or...? I play online matches almost daily, do I count as hardcore, because I don't compete in tournaments and wouldn't know how or where to even participate in one.

What is considered hardcore for Smash Bros.?