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Fighting Games Weekly | June 24-30 | Twitch, pay your paaAAAaartners for god's sake!

QisTopTier said:
It's half serious, I'm pointing out how stupid the claim you are making is.

You shouldn't group your own ability to not do something and speak for everyone.

Please don't make me go pull up a fuck ton of overhead data from different games. I rather not waste my time.
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Oh, this should be fun.

What is my claim?
 
Warpticon said:
I can't tell if this is serious or not.
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If people can react to whether a fireball is thrown after a normal or buffer a super into a single attack they can react to a 20+ frame crossup. People block Dudley's overhead and that's 15 frames. 12 in 3rd Strike! Magneto's tridash can be as fast as 19 frames. Hard to block? Sure. But nobody ever calls any of these things 50/50s.

Scorpion's teleport is only 3 frames faster than Ibuki's overhead and almost nobody gets hit by that.

If 23 frames was something you couldn't react to, 3d fighters would be unplayable.

Warpticon said:
So are you saying that blocking is all reaction? Because you would be very, very, very wrong.
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So you never expect Scorpion's teleport, despite it being 75% of the match?
 
Warpticon said:
So are you saying that blocking is all reaction? Because you would be very, very, very wrong.
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Yes, it's a reaction thing. Once you see a move once you know what it does at that point it becomes reaction based. I'm sorry you think fighting game players are wizards
 
Saw more than half of the youtube video with Killerfrost vs Scorpion. The character is a problem that shouldn't be solved two weeks before the biggest fighting game tournament in the world.

That said, dude is practically moving still compared to the shenanigans in some other games imo.
Karsticles said:
Is Resurrection on PC?
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No
Enordash said:
So I guess the general sentiment here is that the NRS community is just not used to blocking cross-ups and the problem will go away eventually? In the podcast, Pig, REO, and Brady pretty much said that all they want is for MB Tele to not be safe on block. Or more accurately, the MB part would only come out on hit. If that gets patched, people will probably settle down a bit. The fact that he breaks interactables is another thing entirely, though.

I understand that people dealt with Vanilla Phoenix and the like in the past. I'm honestly pretty torn about this situation myself. I've always been pretty staunch with the "stop complaining and figure out how to beat it" stance, but if something breaks the basic rules of the game, there might be room for adjustment.

Edit: I missed where Karsticles pretty much pointed this all out.
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Vanilla Phoenix was stupid in a way that goes beyond the pale. When she comes out onto the field and you don't have a 100% setup you are just fighting the inevitable imo.
 
I need to start entering coin flip money matches because I must be a guessing genius to get to top 16 in a VF5 major blocking impossible-to-see 19 frame lows.
 
I'm hesitant to call anything that players can consistently block on reaction a legitimate mixup. I've always thought of a real mixup as a situation in which players have to make an educated guess.

On this topic though, it's interesting (and a little weird) that the speed of a "slow" overhead is often the same as a "fast" low in 3D games. Top Tekken/VF/SC players get hit by 17-20f lows quite a bit, and yet the ones that do also play 2D games seem to block pretty well in those. I've wondered if it's because the startup animations for lows in 3D games can look similar to other moves at times.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";66293426]If people can react to whether a fireball is thrown after a normal or buffer a super into a single attack they can react to a 20+ frame crossup. People block Dudley's overhead and that's 15 frames. 12 in 3rd Strike! Magneto's tridash can be as fast as 19 frames. Hard to block? Sure. But nobody ever calls any of these things 50/50s.

Scorpion's teleport is only 3 frames faster than Ibuki's overhead and almost nobody gets hit by that.

If 23 frames was something you couldn't react to, 3d fighters would be unplayable.



So you never expect Scorpion's teleport, despite it being 75% of the match?[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention this Fchamp and Rog were talking about this the other night and they said its more of a "feel and a read" rather than reaction. They are reacting to the overhead. They are anticipating it and blocking high when they him stand up. They said "thats not really reactions but more of a read".

The example they gave in marvel was that spencers overhead in a blockstring is easy to see/block because you're already anticipating and predicting it. But if you were to try to block random raw overhead it would be a ton harder. Thats fchamp said "20-21 frame is borderline reactable". Spencers overhead is 20+ frames and you still don't see top players block it all the time.
 
soakrates said:
I'm hesitant to call anything that players can consistently block on reaction a legitimate mixup. I've always thought of a real mixup as a situation in which players have to make an educated guess.

On this topic though, it's interesting (and a little weird) that the speed of a "slow" overhead is often the same as a "fast" low in 3D games. Top Tekken/VF/SC players get hit by 17-20f lows quite a bit, and yet the ones that do also play 2D games seem to block pretty well in those. I've wondered if it's because the startup animations for lows in 3D games can look similar to other moves at times.
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I have an easier time blocking lows in 3d fighters because I can see the full animation. In 2d fighters everything just clicks into place so it can be really deceptive. I think it's the pace of the games that changes it, you can pretty much tell when someone is gonna try something different in a 2d fighter but moves flow together more smoothly in 3d games. I have a hard time blocking some of the mid/low chains in VF because of that, but single hits are pretty easy.

Ragingnight said:
Funny you mention this Fchamp and Rog were talking about this the other night and they said its more of a "feel and a read" rather than reaction. They are reacting to the overhead. They are anticipating it and blocking high when they him stand up. They said "thats not really reactions but more of a read".

The example they gave in marvel was that spencers overhead in a blockstring is easy to see/block because you're already anticipating and predicting it. But if you were to try to block random raw overhead it would be a ton harder. Thats fchamp said "20-21 frame is borderline reactable".
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Of course, but Scorpion's teleport is telegraphed all day by player habits and the situation, not to mention the screen explodes and the camera flies around.
 
Ragingnight said:
Funny you mention this Fchamp and Rog were talking about this the other night and they said its more of a "feel and a read" rather than reaction. They are reacting to the overhead. They are anticipating it and blocking high when they him stand up. They said "thats not really reactions but more of a read".

The example they gave in marvel was that spencers overhead in a blockstring is easy to see/block because you're already anticipating and predicting it. But if you were to try to block random raw overhead it would be a ton harder. Thats fchamp said "20-21 frame is borderline reactable".
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Thank you.

Anticipation != reaction. half of fighting games is trying to create situations that are easier to anticipate. Nobody said you can't block overhead. The hell is wrong with y'all?
 
Welp I've been grinding a lot of Injustice as of this weekend, gonna keep it up because a) it's fun and b) I might end up doing backup pools commentary at Evo, we'll see. I didn't get to play much for its first month because that was when I was going to a tournament every weekend, so I just didn't have enough time. Then I played a bunch for a couple weeks, but then I didn't have time to play games again. Now I kinda do, yay!

Scorpion basically makes my existing Lex setups useless, both in that I can't set them up in the neutral game, only after knockdowns, and in that even when I set them up he can just teleport behind me and get around my crap. I'll go into the lab and see if maybe I can like, throw down a close mine then dash forward so that if he teleports he lands on the mine. I dunno.

But Bane, I dunno, I don't think Bane has that bad a time against him. I can still do meaty venomed special moves as he's getting up and they'll still either hit or absorb teleport/flipkick. I'm not trying to set zoning or projectiles up and I'm mostly approaching on the ground rather than through the air so hellfire/tp doesn't have those games to blow up. If I block a non-MB tp or make one whiff by jumping I do 30-70% damage on him. We'll see though, I've played competent Scorps but not great ones.

He's definitely a dick of a character though and I can see why people say he doesn't belong in the game. He's so much faster and more active than the rest of the cast, so he can seem OP by comparison. I'm not so sure he is, but meh, who am I to rule that out.
 
soakrates said:
I'm hesitant to call anything that players can consistently block on reaction a legitimate mixup. I've always thought of a real mixup as a situation in which players have to make an educated guess.

On this topic though, it's interesting (and a little weird) that the speed of a "slow" overhead is often the same as a "fast" low in 3D games. Top Tekken/VF/SC players get hit by 17-20f lows quite a bit, and yet the ones that do also play 2D games seem to block pretty well in those. I've wondered if it's because the startup animations for lows in 3D games can look similar to other moves at times.
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Could be the animation. Could the fact that the natural tendency is to block high in 3d games to avoid eating the mids. Kind of like players eat the overheads in SF because they are normally looking to block low.
 
Not to mention that many top players will intentionally eat the overheads and normal throws because it's a lower cost than reacting wrong/too slow and eating a full combo.
 
alstein said:
As for VF, I think it did an ok job attracting new talent. They released it fairly cheaply, and it received a warm reception. Also, they've had sales. The problem is VF just requires a fundamentally different mindset than almost any other fighter- it's different than even most of the other 3D fighters- SC players have the easiest time transitioning, but even there you have a mental shift. That's what makes it hard to draw in players.

The big difference is almost every other fighter you can bully folks around, you just can't do that in VF- you have to give equal attention to your defense and your offense at all levels (I know, it's hypocritical for me to talk about it- my defense is crap)
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My problem with VF is that it's not on PC. Fix it, Sega.
 
Of course, but Scorpion's teleport is telegraphed all day by player habits and the situation, not to mention the screen explodes and the camera flies around.
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eh I would say thats partially true. I mean low tier scorps will just do it when its obvious. But how do you deal with jump in whiff cancel j1/3 into mb teleport? One of them is an 8 frame air normal which you can't react to if it will hit or not, so you would normally just stand block in anticipation when he jumps. Then he just mb TP and you have to block crossup (or same side if the jump attack was a cross up) and deal with the free pressure he gets being positive on block.

The character is still stupid and should be nerfed. No questions about that. Ban because he is stupid? I'm not qualified to say. I would just ban him because he is too new.

What's wrong, is someone thinks that Scorpion's teleport is a 50/50
I don't think he is saying his tp is a 50/50. I think they are saying that his jump in setup is a 50/50. Since he can make the jump in cross up/not crossup or whiff totally and hit you while you were anticipating the jump attack
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";66295321]I have an easier time blocking lows in 3d fighters because I can see the full animation. In 2d fighters everything just clicks into place so it can be really deceptive. I think it's the pace of the games that changes it, you can pretty much tell when someone is gonna try something different in a 2d fighter but moves flow together more smoothly in 3d games. I have a hard time blocking some of the mid/low chains in VF because of that, but single hits are pretty easy.[/QUOTE]
I think it depends largely on the move being used and how well a player trains his opponent. If you use overheads/lows in situations where they're expected, then of course they're going to be easier to block on reaction. It's funny that you find lows from neutral easier to block than lows out of strings, though, since most who play 3D fighters a lot would probably say the opposite.
 
God's Beard!";66295621]What's wrong said:
I think it depends largely on the move being used and how well a player trains his opponent. If you use overheads/lows in situations where they're expected, then of course they're going to be easier to block on reaction. It's funny that you find lows from neutral easier to block than lows out of strings, though, since most who play 3D fighters a lot would probably say the opposite.
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If you can train them, then it's not all reaction...which is my point.
 
Isn't this just the same thing as the "nobody can tech 6f throws on reaction" thing that Dacidbro is always going on about?

Frame data isn't necessarily compelling evidence outside of the context of the mixup, because the threshold for pure reaction times is actually really long and there isn't a black and white distinction between reaction and anticipation.

Is it feasible for NRS to nerf him before Evo? I'm not familiar with the patching situation.
 
atomic moth said:
So did anyone find proof that Tekken players are boycotting because of control pads?

Or is someone here being dishonest?
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Somebody here was spouting bullshit about the SG side tourney starting at 7am for Evo so I would take it with a grain of salt and move on.
 
On the whole reaction thing:

A while back Dacidbro had a twitter discussion with someone else about this. The conclusion was after a certain speed, it's just not humanly possible to block something purely on reaction. I think the threshold was 15 frames (assuming a game that runs at 60f/sec).
 
Ragingnight said:
eh I would say thats partially true. I mean low tier scorps will just do it when its obvious. But how do you deal with jump in whiff cancel j1/3 into mb teleport? One of them is an 8 frame air normal which you can't react to if it will hit or not, so you would normally just stand block in anticipation when he jumps. Then he just mb TP and you have to block crossup (or same side if the jump attack was a cross up) and deal with the free pressure he gets being positive on block.

The character is still stupid and should be nerfed. No questions about that. Ban because he is stupid? I'm not qualified to say. I would just ban him because he is too new.

What's wrong, is someone thinks that Scorpion's teleport is a 50/50
I don't think he is saying his tp is a 50/50. I think they are saying that his jump in setup is a 50/50. Since he can make the jump in cross up/not crossup or whiff totally and hit you while you were anticipating the jump attack
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If he jumps at you, you block back until you see the screen explode, then you change directions. Neutral jump lows in street fighter aren't 50/50s, air target combos aren't 50/50s. Neither is this.

soakrates said:
I think it depends largely on the move being used and how well a player trains his opponent. If you use overheads/lows in situations where they're expected, then of course they're going to be easier to block on reaction. It's funny that you find lows from neutral easier to block than lows out of strings, though, since most who play 3D fighters a lot would probably say the opposite.
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It's probably the only reason I ranked as high as you at NCR. I hadn't played VF in years and I really had no idea what people's chains did so I'd get confused. Same when I had to play your boy Renzo with his Jean. No idea what was going on with those delayed attacks so it was hard enough getting a single round on the guy.
 
call_kotaku said:
Isn't this just the same thing as the "nobody can tech 6f throws on reaction" thing that Dacidbro is always going on about?

Frame data isn't necessarily compelling evidence outside of the context of the mixup, because the threshold for pure reaction times is actually really long and there isn't a black and white distinction between reaction and anticipation.

Is it feasible for NRS to nerf him before Evo? I'm not familiar with the patching situation.
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hector said they are working on it a few days ago
If he jumps at you, you block back until you see the screen explode, then you change directions. Neutral jump lows in street fighter aren't 50/50s, air target combos aren't 50/50s. Neither is this.
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meh take it to them. I said thats probably why they think its a 50/50
 
call_kotaku said:
Is it feasible for NRS to nerf him before Evo? I'm not familiar with the patching situation.
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Maybe but the better question is should they? How little time do you want to give players to be familiar with a game at its biggest tournament of the year? Is it more important that players be familiar with a character or that the character not appear dominant? I dunno.
 
I don't think it's a coincidence that all the DLC characters so far for Injustice (that the testers didn't get to play) are either among the best or worst characters in the game.
 
UltraDavid said:
Maybe but the better question is should they? How little time do you want to give players to be familiar with a game at its biggest tournament of the year? Is it more important that players be familiar with a character or that the character not appear dominant? I dunno.
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I guess its too late for that question. They plan on "balancing" him already.

Lost Fragment said:
I don't think it's a coincidence that all the DLC characters so far for Injustice (that the testers didn't get to play) are either among the best or worst characters in the game.
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Batgirl is good! She just came out with...tons of bugs!
 
Too late for Evo since they're not allowing Zod. Unless they're only disallowing brand new characters at that date and not changes to existing content or something.
 
QisTopTier said:
Idk this just helps prove my point for me. I dont have issues with stuff like this. I've been playing the game for ages now I just tap back on the first frame I see of her going into those overhead positions.

For example BB throw techs are 13 frames, those get teched all the time.
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You whooped my ass with Mu, but all those pink command throws>your teching ability lol.

Pink Bang, purple throws and poison Kunais are just unfair :P
 
SolarPowered said:
You whooped my ass with MU, but all those pink command throws>your teching ability lol.

Pink Bang, pink throws and pink poison Kunais are just unfair :P
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haha I was just sucking really bad that day REALLY BAD :D But yeah online as well doesn't really do fast techs any favors even with BB's netcode.

Proto is way better at throw techs than me.

Actually LOL Mu's slow ass overhead double hit is 22 frames :P
 
QisTopTier said:
haha I was just sucking really bad that day REALLY BAD :D But yeah online as well doesn't really do fast techs any favors even with BB's netcode.

Proto is way better at throw techs than me.
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I don't know why, but I'm better at teching throws in everything that isn't BlazBlue. They're so slow that I actually overreact. GGPO makes teching just fine. Nothing will ever make Guilty Gear throw techs viable. Them shits are so fast Kenshiro couldn't tech them if he tried.
 
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