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[Snowden's Secret]

Uh, what? You can't physically assault someone in "self defense" because they might be following you.

You can claim self defense if someone is punching you in the face, hitting your head against concrete, and you feel your life is in danger.

I think you're wrong on this one. Assault is creating the believable threat of bodily harm IIRC (fake edit: an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, per Wikipedia). So if Zimmerman is intentionally following Martin (already established) and Martin believes Zimmerman means harm (also established) then Martin was assaulted. Notice that no physical harm has to have occurred (that would be battery IIRC). This can vary by state obviously.

So if Martin is going home, in the dark (and it was raining?) and Zimmerman is pursuing him in a threatening manner, then Martin has been assaulted. He doesn't have to actually wait for the harmful physical contact to protect himself because it may be too late at that point.

 

[methane47]

Was the witness cross-examined? That's pretty damning.

Cross exam now

 

[Future PhaZe]

I think you're wrong on this one. Assault is creating the believable threat of bodily harm IIRC (fake edit: an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, per Wikipedia). So if Zimmerman is intentionally following Martin (already established) and Martin believes Zimmerman means harm (also established) then Martin was assaulted. Notice that no physical harm has to have occurred (that would be battery IIRC). This can vary by state obviously.

So if Martin is going home, in the dark (and it was raining?) and Zimmerman is pursuing him in a threatening manner, then Martin has been assaulted. He doesn't have to actually wait for the harmful physical contact to protect himself because it may be too late at that point.

The problem is that Zimmerman claims he literally spoke to Trayvon and told him that he didn't have a problem with him but Trayvon attacked him anyway.

 

[Sayter]

Linky to live stream please?

 

[methane47]

The problem is that Zimmerman claims he literally spoke to Trayvon and told him that he didn't have a problem with him but Trayvon attacked him anyway.

So wait, I thought Zimmerman said that Tryvayvon like suprised him on his way back to his car.

So You're saying that Zimmerman met Tray, At which they had a brief chat, where tray then said "you have one [A problem] now"

at which time, Zimmerman starts walking back to his car... then Tray hides in the bush? and jumps out and attacks him?

 

[Snowden's Secret]

The problem is that Zimmerman claims he literally spoke to Trayvon and told him that he didn't have a problem with him but Trayvon attacked him anyway.

Oh, I hadn't heard that before. That's a good argument, though I'm not sure how the defense is supposed to prove it?

 

[Van Owen]

The witness said the guy on top got up and walked away after the gun shot. Zimmerman said he was on bottom getting his ass beat when he shot Trayvon...

The only injuries Martin had according to the autopsy was the gunshot and an abrasion below one of his knuckles, so what exactly was Zimmerman doing to him if he had the upper hand during the fight?

 

[Future PhaZe]

So wait, I thought Zimmerman said that Tryvayvon like suprised him on his way back to his car.

So You're saying that Zimmerman met Tray, At which they had a brief chat, where tray then said "you have one [A problem] now"

at which time, Zimmerman starts walking back to his car... then Tray hides in the bush? and jumps out and attacks him?

He claims he was trying to get a house address to better point the cops to a point of location and that while he was walking back to his car Trayvon came out of nowhere and asked him if he had a problem, to which Zimmerman said no, and then Trayvon said "you have one now" and then punched him.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Linky to live stream please?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...l-live-video-chat-20130612,0,7210676.htmlpage

Some of the comments in the chat box below is disturbing though.

 

[BronsonLee]

The only injuries Martin had according to the autopsy was the gunshot and an abrasion below one of his knuckles, so what exactly was Zimmerman doing to him if he had the upper hand during the fight?

Shooting him with a gun?

 

[theignoramus]

I believe the motherfucker's guilty, but I wouldnt feel good about convicting him with the evidence thats been presented. ima need something more forensic than what the neighbors think they heard. or am I missing something?

 

[BSsBrolly]

The only injuries Martin had according to the autopsy was the gunshot and an abrasion below one of his knuckles, so what exactly was Zimmerman doing to him if he had the upper hand during the fight?

Trying to pin him down? Maybe trying to shoot him?

 

[ElFly]

So wait, I thought Zimmerman said that Tryvayvon like suprised him on his way back to his car.

So You're saying that Zimmerman met Tray, At which they had a brief chat, where tray then said "you have one [A problem] now"

at which time, Zimmerman starts walking back to his car... then Tray hides in the bush? and jumps out and attacks him?

Here's a map of the events, but doesn't point where Trayvon "ambushed" Zimmerman.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

Do note that the point where Zimmerman left his SUV, and the point where Trayvon died are pretty far apart. Zimmerman claims that after being told not to pursue, he went to check the address and

...Zimmerman left his vehicle to determine his location and ascertain in which direction Martin had fled.[184][191] The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following Martin, and Zimmerman replied "Yeah." Then the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away.[190] After a discussion about where Zimmerman would meet police, the call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.

 

[Mr. Patch]

He claims he was trying to get a house address to better point the cops to a point of location and that while he was walking back to his car Trayvon came out of nowhere and asked him if he had a problem, to which Zimmerman said no, and then Trayvon said "you have one now" and then punched him.

But his story doesn't make sense because if he was trying to get an address, he wouldn't have to go all the way back to that dog walk. The townhomes have their addresses on the front.

 

[Future PhaZe]

My theory is that it happened the way George said it did but George said some disrespectful, inflammatory shit and Trayvon initiated a fight, to which he was winning and George shot him.

I have no idea how you can obtain evidence to support it if it happened that way though.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Uh, what? You can't physically assault someone in "self defense" because they might be following you.

You can claim self defense if someone is punching you in the face, hitting your head against concrete, and you feel your life is in danger.

Bottom line for me is this. Zimmerman's non-emergency phone call ended TWO MINUTES BEFORE Trayvon's phone call to his girlfriend ended. He was killed about a minute later. Now you tell me, if Zimmerman immediately ended his pursuit and started walking back to his car after his phone call ended, how did he end up in a confrontation with Trayvon who was still on the phone two whole minutes after Zimmerman's call ended? Easy, Zimmerman never stopped looking for him. Also, the only wounds that Trayvon had on his hands was a small, mm cut on his left ring finger and he was right handed. No cuts, not skinned knuckles, no anything else.

 

[ElFly]

Bottom line for me is this. Zimmerman's non-emergency phone call ended TWO MINUTES BEFORE Trayvon's phone call to his girlfriend ended. He was killed about a minute later. Now you tell me, if Zimmerman immediately ended his pursuit and started walking back to his car after his phone call ended, how did he end up in a confrontation with Trayvon who was still on the phone two whole minutes after Zimmerman's call ended? Easy, Zimmerman never stopped looking for him. Also, the only wounds that Trayvon had on his hands was a small, mm cut on his left ring finger and he was right handed. No cuts, not skinned knuckles, no anything else.

I think the phone calls are timed down to the minute (at least Trayvon's), so there's some rounding that can be done to argue the events happened quicker.

 

[Van Owen]

Shooting him with a gun?

So after getting beaten up and feeling his life is in danger based on Martin allegedly saying "you're going to die tonight", he managed to roll on top of him and shoot him? Is that murder?

 

[TunaMarshmallow]

I believe the motherfucker's guilty, but I wouldnt feel good about convicting him with the evidence thats been presented. ima need something more forensic than what the neighbors think they heard. or am I missing something?

Definitely missing something!

Based on what we've heard so far, (i) an armed man followed an unarmed kid through the rain, (ii) he ignored a suggestion from a 911 agent to not continue pursuing and ignored his previous training which indicated that he should not follow suspicious persons, (iii) he engaged in a protracted physical conflict that involved him being on top and Martin crying for help, and (iv) he shot the kid to death while he sustained non-serious injuries. And we are waiting to hear from the (alleged) star witness that will describe Martin's phone call.

You're saying that (iii) isn't compelling, because you don't trust one neighbor's testimony about what she heard (Zimmerman being the aggressor) and you don't trust another neighbor's testimony about what she saw (Zimmerman being on top). Absolutely, (iii) could be more compelling. And perhaps it will get even more compelling. But I can't imagine "not feeling good" about him being convicted on the basis of what's been presented so far.

I'm open-minded to countervailing evidence, but I would never "not feel good" about him being convicted according to what we've seen so far.

 

[BSsBrolly]

Bottom line for me is this. Zimmerman's non-emergency phone call ended TWO MINUTES BEFORE Trayvon's phone call to his girlfriend ended. He was killed about a minute later. Now you tell me, if Zimmerman immediately ended his pursuit and started walking back to his car after his phone call ended, how did he end up in a confrontation with Trayvon who was still on the phone two whole minutes after Zimmerman's call ended? Easy, Zimmerman never stopped looking for him. Also, the only wounds that Trayvon had on his hands was a small, mm cut on his left ring finger and he was right handed. No cuts, not skinned knuckles, no anything else.

Exactly. Also Trayvon's girlfriend stated he was going to "walk fast" to get away. She was on the phone with him when this went down. She will be very important here. I think witnesses so far have blown Zimmerman's story up. Her testimony will be icing on the cake.

 

[Yoritomo]

To anyone else with a CCW. If you're willing to defend yourself with lethal force you should also be willing to defend yourself with non-lethal force. Carry some mace in addition to your handgun. Anyone who doesn't also carry mace hasn't actually thought through why they carry a gun.

Zimmerman should do time.

 

[BobLoblaw]

I think the phone calls are timed down to the minute (at least Trayvon's), so there's some rounding that can be done to argue the events happened quicker.

No. These times came from the phone call carriers. If anything, I did the rounding as I think it was actually two minutes and two seconds after Zimmerman's phone call ended that Trayvon's did. The times are absolute.

 

[BSsBrolly]

So after getting beaten up and feeling his life is in danger based on Martin allegedly saying "you're going to die tonight", he managed to roll on top of him and shoot him? Is that murder?

Yes it is because he's no long defending himself. He said Trayvon was raining down blows and smothering him when he shot him. Witnesses are saying that's not what happened. This means Zimmerman was lying.

Is it that hard for you to understand?

 

[Van Owen]

Exactly. Also Trayvon's girlfriend stated he was going to "walk fast" to get away. She was on the phone with him when this went down. She will be very important here. I think witnesses so far have blown Zimmerman's story up. Her testimony will be icing on the cake.

She already lied under oath. I'm not sure the defense will have trouble poking holes in her story.

Yes it is because he's no long defending himself. He said Trayvon was raining down blows and smothering him when he shot him. Witnesses are saying that's not what happened. This means Zimmerman was lying.

Is it that hard for you to understand?

Witnesses also say it was dark, rainy, and they couldn't tell who was yelling for help.

 

[Zoe]

No. These times came from the phone call carriers. If anything, I did the rounding as I think it was actually two minutes and two seconds after Zimmerman's phone call ended that Trayvon's did. The times are absolute.

Did they ever say how the girl's call ended? She said she heard a push. How much of the struggle happened while the call was still connected?

 

[BronsonLee]

So after getting beaten up and feeling his life is in danger based on Martin allegedly saying "you're going to die tonight", he managed to roll on top of him and shoot him? Is that murder?

Yes it is because he's no long defending himself. He said Trayvon was raining down blows and smothering him when he shot him. Witnesses are saying that's not what happened. This means Zimmerman was lying.

Is it that hard for you to understand?

What he said. If he's on top, he can easily de-escalate the situation. Martin can't do anything from the bottom, unless he is a super secret BJJ practitioner

She already lied under oath. I'm not sure the defense will have trouble poking holes in her story.

I think you have a bit more faith in the defense's abilities that they've demonstrated...

 

[BSsBrolly]

She already lied under oath. I'm not sure the defense will have trouble poking holes in her story.



Witnesses also say it was dark, rainy, and they couldn't tell who was yelling for help.

Well the great thing about this is that some of them witnessed this go down. They don't need to see who was screaming for help to hear a gun shot and then see the guy ON TOP get up and walk away.

That alone is enough for me to determine Zimmerman is a liar and the fight didn't go down like he said.

 

[Future PhaZe]

To anyone else with a CCW. If you're willing to defend yourself with lethal force you should also be willing to defend yourself with non-lethal force. Carry some mace in addition to your handgun. Anyone who doesn't also carry mace hasn't actually thought through why they carry a gun.

Zimmerman should do time.

Number 1 rule to anyone who gets a CCP is to never, ever, ever do anything to put yourself in a situation that could result in a physical confrontation unless its absolutely necessary.

So yea, the guy is extremely irresponsible at the very least.

 

[Van Owen]

11:57 a.m. ET: Mamalo said she doesn't know who is bigger Zimmerman or Martin now.


HMMMMM.....

 

[Future PhaZe]

11:57 a.m. ET: Mamalo said she doesn't know who is bigger Zimmerman or Martin now.


HMMMMM.....

I don't think any eye witness testimony is to be taken that serious. It really sounds like nobody was in a position to get a good understanding of what they saw due to the conditions outside.

 

[hayguyz]

Well the great thing about this is that some of them witnessed this go down. They don't need to see who was screaming for help to hear a gun shot and then see the guy ON TOP get up and walk away.

That alone is enough for me to determine Zimmerman is a liar and the fight didn't go down like he said.

As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk. When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.

 

[BSsBrolly]

11:57 a.m. ET: Mamalo said she doesn't know who is bigger Zimmerman or Martin now.


HMMMMM.....

You desperately want Zimmerman to walk. I dont get it...

 

[Van Owen]

You desperately want Zimmerman to walk. I dont get it...

I just don't see any real evidence that he's guilty of murder in the second degree.

I didn't want Casey Anthony to walk, but the prosecution had no real case against her either.

 

[soundscream]

I just don't see any real evidence that he's guilty of murder in the second degree.

I didn't want Casey Anthony to walk, but the prosecution had no real case against her either.

Adding HMMMMMMMM to your post indicates you are anything but not rooting for Zimmerman.

 

[BSsBrolly]

As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk. When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.

The witness never said she saw them switch positions. She saw a man on top when the gun shot was heard and that same man got off the other and walked away.

 

[Van Owen]

Adding HMMMMMMMM to your post indicates you are anything but not rooting for Zimmerman.

No, it's just pointing out the witnesses aren't really reliable even though others are using them as an open and shut case for the prosecution because supposedly "Zimmerman was on top" or something.

 

[faceless007]

As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk. When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.

Why does this read like the climax of a Hollywood cop movie?

 

[soundscream]

No, it's just pointing out the witnesses aren't really reliable even though others are using them as an open and shut case for the prosecution because supposedly "Zimmerman was on top" or something.

Then you just say that adding HMMMMMMMMM invalidates any objectivity of what your posting.

 

[Zoe]

The witness never said she saw them switch positions. She saw a man on top when the gun shot was heard and that same man got off the other and walked away.

Wasn't Martin found face down though?

 

[faust666]

The witness never said she saw them switch positions. She saw a man on top when the gun shot was heard and that same man got off the other and walked away.

But another witness said she heard 3 gunshots. Is that good enough for you to believe he was shot 3 times as well?

 

[Van Owen]

Then you just say that adding HMMMMMMMMM invalidates any objectivity of what your posting.

I will say based on the evidence available, I don't believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

 

[AndyD]

Wasn't Martin found face down though?

Could have rolled over after being shot and Zimmerman walked away. Death could have come slowly.

 

[BronsonLee]

I will say based on the evidence available, I don't believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

Apparently the DA thought otherwise...

 

[BSsBrolly]

But another witness said she heard 3 gunshots. Is that good enough for you to believe he was shot 3 times as well?

I haven't heard that. I trust eye witness accounts a lot more than someone just listening anyway.

 

[BSsBrolly]

I will say based on the evidence available, I don't believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

I don't think you'll be satisfied no matter what comes forward. Zimmerman is innocent in your mind and I don't think anything will change that. It's obvious as you cling to any little thing to justify your belief.

 

[ElFly]

Why does this read like the climax of a Hollywood cop movie?

Probably cause it was made up.

 

[Van Owen]

I don't think you'll be satisfied no matter what comes forward. Zimmerman is innocent in your mind and I don't think anything will change that. It's obvious as you cling to any little thing to justify your belief.

lol as opposed to people calling for the opposite?

If some other evidence comes to fruition that points to murder without a reasonable doubt, I'll gladly change my mind.

I mean Jesus, even the title of this thread is trying to imply Zimmerman is guilty.

 

[GrandHarrier]

Apparently the DA thought otherwise...

Being brought up on charges != Guilty, this isn't Cardassia.

I don't think you'll be satisfied no matter what comes forward. Zimmerman is innocent in your mind and I don't think anything will change that. It's obvious as you cling to any little thing to justify your belief.

I don't think you'll be satisfied no matter what comes forward. Zimmerman is guilty in your mind and I don't think anything will change that. It's obvious as your cling to any little thing to justify your belief.

Spoiler

See what I did there?

 

[Future PhaZe]

As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk. When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.

lol

cmon now zim

 

[Mr. Patch]

lol as opposed to people calling for the opposite?

If some other evidence comes to fruition that points to murder without a reasonable doubt, I'll gladly change my mind.

I mean Jesus, even the title of this thread is trying to imply Zimmerman is guilty.

Did George Zimmerman not kill an unarmed teen named Trayvon Martin?