He was actually being beaten for some time before shooting, which is substantially different from 'those guys look scary'.
George Zimmerman (killer of unarmed Florida teen Trayvon Martin) found not guilty
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He was actually being beaten for some time before shooting, which is substantially different from 'those guys look scary'.
Hey, no one is justifying this paranoid assholes actions, I am must saying we need to look at the entirety of what we know and what happened instead of coming in with predisposed "he was just a black kid with skittles walking home poor him what is with this world".
D
Deleted member 47027
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Wah I say weird shit
polyh3dron
Banned
He created the confrontation by approaching Trayvon and thinking he was a criminal for no reason other than his appearance. After 911 dispatch told him not to.
If I'm a black kid and someone is trying to say I'm a criminal for walking back from the store I'm not taking it lying down. Who the fuck does he think he is questioning me asking what I'm doing around here and following me?
And who set all of that into motion? Zimmerman.
There is no solid evidence that I've seen that he approached Martin. He says he didn't and Martin ambushed him. Sure he could be lying, but in the complete absence of actual evidence to the contrary, I don't see how you can convict him under the assumption that he was the one to approach. Someone following you doesn't give you the the right to turn around and fight them.
Someone suspecting or accusing you of being a criminal falsely doesn't give you the right to fight them.
Depending on what happened, you could argue that Treyvon set his death into motion. If he really did pounce Zimmerman before Zimmerman attacked him, not all the blame goes to Zimmerman. Had Trayvon not attacked Zimmerman, I doubt this would be in the courts.
Well, you're not allowed to beat someone up because they insulted you. However, I do believe Trayvon was fearful, and believed to be defending himself.
BTW, it's really sad how the 24/7 news networks have drawn this along racial lines, and are rooting for separate sides simply based on that.
But he WAS. All he did was mind his own business until someone planning to do god-knows-what targetted him for god-knows why. Everything he did was a response to what George was doing TO HIM. Everything george did was because of what george wanted to do, and what george projected onto trayvon, without justification or evidence, just hubris. George never once thought about what he was doing to trayvon until he had already taken his life. Not a shred of empathy or self-doubt in how George acted that night.
The problem is it seems that the only takeaway from this is he's black. I would love to see how people would come to terms with this case if that small insignificant fact wasn't mentioned.
Even if I don't know someone has a weapon on them is trailing me, I'm going to have serious fears for my safety. That isn't being played up much though, that this individual whether one considers him a teenager or adult, has no justification for his fears for his safety, yet Zimmerman, the pursuant of this person Trayvon does and Zimmermans fears trump that of Trayvons, the one being stalked. Really? Because thats how its being rationalized. Hell, there is no discussion of whose fears is more justified because clearly being black makes you a stone cold, emotionless, fearless Goliath.
Fuck this story depresses me more and more, and not because this kid is dead but because the fucking mental gymnastics done to frame this case as a Big Bad Black kid vs Zimmerman....
Fuck this shit
vas_a_morir
Banned
Makes sense. You are angry because somebody is looking at you like a violent criminal, so to prove them wrong, you commit a violent crime. The bad part of this, though, is that these actions not only prove the alleged racist correct about you, but it also puts in you in either jail or a morgue. It's not taking it lying down, it's taking the high road.
Following someone in this case isnt exactly illegal. George had honestly done nothing to Trayvon physically before Trayvon pounced him. He is fucked up for borderline stalking but that doesn't deserve what Trayvon got. Zimmerman felt threatened as someone was beating his ass and things escelated from there.
No, it's because being followed, like the above example about being approached by a group of thuggish looking people, does not cause a reasonable person to fear for their life in the same way that being punched in the face does. There are perfectly legal reasons why someone could be following you, there are generally no perfectly legal reasons to punch someone in the face.
How do you know?
How do you know Zimmerman didn't try to detain him, escalating things?
also, zimmerman projected a dangerous and hostile persona on trayvon, yet pursued him. a reasonable person would not do that under the same circumstances. At least, I wouldn't. If I get bad vibes from someone or am driving through a bad area of town, to the point where I assume the presence of unlawfulness, my brain is telling me "GET/STAY AWAY!"
Who the hell goes looking for danger?
Who the hell goes looking for danger?
That is the thing. We DONT know. We are all speculating and making a 30 piece puzzle with only 20 pieces. But the doubt that Zimmerman wasn't going to just put a bullet in Trayvon on sight is pretty reasonable.
An overzealous member of the neighborhood watch who wants to keep his community safe, perhaps.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Nobody knows. And as far as I known, I have seen no proof or testimony that supports Zimmerman tried to detain him.
I have also seen no proof or testimony that supports Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, besides Zimmerman's own account, which can hardly be trusted as he is the defendant.
We just don't know.
We don't, but so far there has been no compelling evidence to show that he did.
You can't convict someone on 'how do you knows' and 'what ifs'.
Sure maybe that means someone gets away with a crime, but it's 1,000x preferable to an innocent man going to prison.
Mackenzie 92
Member
We don't know what happened though, and just going by the stand your ground law, the moment Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Martin, he became the aggressor and started looking for trouble.
The fact that Martin moved away from the road to try to get away from him makes him the non-aggressor and judging by Zimmerman's previous actions that night, ignoring the cops and continuing playing wannabee cop, isn't it possible he cut him off and may have even tried to detain him or block his process in getting home? At that point Martin has the right to defend himself, imo.
I remember being 17 and I might have talked tough but in a situation like that being alone at night, I'm not gonna hide and ambush a grown man. On the other hand you have Zimmerman with a history of assaulting a police officer and his wife, being trained in MMA and carrying a loaded weapon and has shown over and over the night in question to be acting aggressively toward Martin instead of listening to the police and letting them handle it. So who's the likely aggressor?
Byakuya769
Member
I know that 20 years from now this case will be an important portion of the "lol post racial!?!" segment of high school history courses.
Do none of you remember high school or being 17? It was about acting tough, getting in fights etc. So can you blame a 17 year old kid trying to act tough against some guy who was following and harassing him for a while?
Since when does violence deserve deadly force? Not even police officers grab their gun and shoot criminals as quickly as this.
Why are people not understanding? Zimmerman killed a teenager. A teenager who was unarmed. He didn't arm himself with a sidewalk. He didn't want to die. He didn't deserve to be followed.
Thank god I feel safe in Canada knowing that people aren't packing guns to solve problems. Just sad but come on, even if Zimmerman was jumped and pummeled, he doesn't have the right to kill Trayvon especially since he put himself in that situation.
Since when does violence deserve deadly force? Not even police officers grab their gun and shoot criminals as quickly as this.
Why are people not understanding? Zimmerman killed a teenager. A teenager who was unarmed. He didn't arm himself with a sidewalk. He didn't want to die. He didn't deserve to be followed.
Thank god I feel safe in Canada knowing that people aren't packing guns to solve problems. Just sad but come on, even if Zimmerman was jumped and pummeled, he doesn't have the right to kill Trayvon especially since he put himself in that situation.
computers putin'
Member
everything about this trial is depressing, I can't believe Zimmerman is likely to get off.
No, it is illegal. If you're following someone to the point where they begin to fear their own safety, that's actually assault. Especially when they try to get away from you, send that signal to you, and you don't let them. There is a mutual understanding that you're following someone and that they're afraid and trying to get away from you, but you're denying them that outcome while not making any attempt to identify yourself or your intentions to them. You are committing assault.
User 100115
Banned
There is also not really any solid evidence of Zimmerman's claims either. Considering that yes, someone was screaming for help, and those screams cut off abruptly when the gun was fired, I am inclined to believe the person screaming was Martin. Also, according to the most recent version of events Zimmerman recounted, he was being throttled, had Martin's hands covering his mouth, and his head beaten in when he fired. Can't really scream when someone is choking you and covering your mouth.
If the action was isolated to only following I would agree with you but when you look through this case, his clear action was to have a provocation with Trayvon. He didn't want him to get away because they always get away. That should be taken into account.
And even if we believe Zimmermans account that Trayvon just randomly punched him by all accounts Zimmerman was the one he started the confrontation by approaching the kid at night with provocation.
Legally or not, there was intent.
Kyuuketsu_Night
Member
He's not 'innocent' because he followed him in the first place and shot the kid.
If this happened to one of your close relatives it'd be so easy to understand but I guess Trayvon is too unrelatable to some people. Can't put themselves in his shoes or don't want to bother.
If this happened to one of your close relatives it'd be so easy to understand but I guess Trayvon is too unrelatable to some people. Can't put themselves in his shoes or don't want to bother.
User 100115
Banned
I also hate the fact that if this were a white kid or a woman, we wouldn't even be arguing right now. Hell, the right wing folk that are defending Zimmerman right now would be calling for his blood and highlighting his ethnic background.
Lmao I can't even tell if you're being serious at this point. Other than putting words in my mouth you seem to think the question that needs to answered here is about some singular moment. Why do we have witnesses? Why do we have background on the defendant? Why do we need to hear the 911call? Why do we have all these people and pieces of evidence laid out before us in a trail? Because it's about the totality of the situation. Your singleminded focus on this one defining moment is ridiculous. It doesn't exist. Say a guy with a squeegee and a windex bottle approaches your car and you plug him. Now compare that to a guy you just cut off jumping out of his car and approaching your door at a red light that you shoot. See how the whole situation needs to be taken into account? It's not a difficult concept.
of course I am xenon, according to you.
it's weird that all you got out of my post, was more victim blaming. but your position has always been trying to figure out what's trayvon did wrong. iirc.
he's a minor. well was, before Zimmerman shot him to death.
Yeah, Trayvon was worried about getting away from him. Who in their right mind runs up on someone who threatens you instead of making an effort to get away. Knocking on doors, calling 911, hiding somewhere etc. Besides, from what we know, both parties are guilty of some type of assault.
faceless007
Member
Zimmerman has also told rather outlandish accounts of how Martin confronted him. In one interview, he claimed Martin appeared behind him, said "Do you have a problem?", Zimmerman said no, then Martin said "Well you got a problem now!" In another interview, if I remember correctly, he said that during the fight Martin yelled "You're going to die now!"
It's hard to take the claims of someone who thinks he's the hero in a Steven Seagal movie seriously.
It's hard to take the claims of someone who thinks he's the hero in a Steven Seagal movie seriously.
You would have to be making noise for someone to want to cover your mouth to silence you.
Killing_Joke
Member
If he was a tanned spanish kid the media would have NEVER ate it up. It just would have been a sad accident. Which is sad but big trials equal ratings so media has to throw color in it.
Is there anyone that is looking beyond skin color believe in what he says? I'm not saying every supporter is a racist. But i would liek to know what key evidence supports GZ the most. His reenactment/Hannity interview has already been contradicted by a few witnesses already. So what evidence is there? TM threw the first punch? Or do people support him because there isn't solid evidence to blame either of them? I'm just curious if anyone on here is 100% behind him.
Is there anyone that is looking beyond skin color believe in what he says? I'm not saying every supporter is a racist. But i would liek to know what key evidence supports GZ the most. His reenactment/Hannity interview has already been contradicted by a few witnesses already. So what evidence is there? TM threw the first punch? Or do people support him because there isn't solid evidence to blame either of them? I'm just curious if anyone on here is 100% behind him.
Again, the threat of violence has to be imminent and well founded. A guy following you no matter how much you want to get away is not an assault without threat of violence.
You can't convict based on 'inclined to believe' though. The eyewitness accounts of the fight are all over the fucking place and contradictory because eyewitnesses are shit evidence. The physical evidence seems to me to confirm Zimmerman's claim that Martin was on top of him, but who knows about the rest of his story.
polyh3dron
Banned
Seriously, this whole case and Zimmerman's overzealous defenders are like something straight out of To Kill A Mockingbird.
User 100115
Banned
I think you missed the entire point of my post, which was that if someone covered your mouth, you couldn't scream. Zimmerman claims that he was one the screaming, but also that Martin had his mouth covered and was choking him when he pulled the trigger. We know for a fact that the screaming was not 'muted', and abruptly cut off after the gunshot was heard. We know this for a fact because of recorded 911 calls. What conclusions can you draw from that?
The screaming, when it cut off, and how it sounded is solid fact, however, because of recorded 911 calls.
RawkHawk2010
Member
The prosecution's witnesses can't even testify without contradicting themselves. How do they have any credence?
polyh3dron
Banned
What about the 911 call
A couple of things could have happened. For one, Zimmerman could've been gettinf choked and muffled but was able to get out of it each scream before being muffled again. Secondly, Zimm was getting his ass beat and could be mixing shit up as getting your head slammed on concrete can obviously fuck with you, or Zimmerman wasn't the one screaming at all but based on evidence we saw at the trial and testomonies, GZ was on the bottom. There are too many blanks to fill honestly.
Consider if this happened to a 17 year old girl. Zimmerman would have zero public support.
No use in screaming after the threat is over..
If we actually had a valid scientific way to match the voice on the 911 tape it could be helpful, but as it it is it is completely subject to interpretation.
In reality, I would bet both of them were screaming their asses off whenever they could(who gets in an intense physical fight and doesn't scream shit?), but that's just my completely useless opinion.
nah imagine if it was trayvon's friend who took the stand the other day
RawkHawk2010
Member
Well yeah. But the probability of a 17 year old girl overpowering Zimmerman physically is far less than that of Trayvon.
I get what you're saying, though.
polyh3dron
Banned
That is sickening on so many levels.
I can't believe he said that. How deplorable
i would put money on trayvon's friend beating zimm's ass
faceless007
Member
I'm really curious to see what the prosecution's medical experts and forensic experts have to say about Martin's wounds and the gunshot. So far they haven't done a good job telling any coherent story of exactly how the fight went down, but the medical testimony will be pretty crucial to their case. Juries tend to put a lot of credence in that.
Shamrock7r
Member
I think for the most part, it's not Zimmerman defenders but more people asking to respect the judicial processs of determining a guilty or not guilty verdict.
I know, what a hero, right?
You can look at it from two angles:
a) he really believes that and is an idiot
b) he was saying that to garner public support from a certain demographic, is an idiot
Either way, the sheer fact that someone would respond negatively to the idea of something turning out differently and not resulting in another person's death is mind-bogglingly depraved.
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