Nintendo of America not allowing SSBM to be streamed at EVO [Up: Decision Reversed]
- Thread starter jbug617
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
I never buy a game without watching at least 5 minutes of it on Youtube.
And games aren't movies or music. Don't be ridiculous.
Apparently, you weren't around when Microsoft officially disallowed monzation of Halo unless specifically authorized.
Companies are protective of their IPs because that's how they potentially make money.
Seriously? Wow.
Let's not argue the small differences that separate them as entertainment experiences, but look at the copyright laws that both govern them as entertainment mediums. Maybe then we can get somewhere instead of these petty arguments some people keep making.
Streams do not convey the game code or the library of game assets. They only convey AV output as determined by a player who is not the stream viewer.
Your comparison is fundamentally unsound.
The differences that separate them ARE the key here. The law can barely handle any of the recent advancements like streaming as a whole. It's pretty much all a big ass gray area, but gaming as a whole doesn't work and isn't lawfully covered by the same reasoning music/movies are.
Yes, and they have a prior relationship with Capcom/Atlus and sponserships. EVO doesn't with Nintendo, that's why you need to ask for permission to use another company's IP before you actually use it.
Again, it was a bad PR move on Nintendo. EVO still pulled an amateurish move, and they're certainly not amateurs at this point.
I was addressing the "free advertising" argument some people are making.
call_kotaku
Member
There's no indication that they handled it differently than how they handled all their other correspondences with other rights holders. Bringing these things directly to a company's legal department is a guaranteed way of getting immediately shut down since all of it exists in a legal gray area to begin with. Say the hypothetical scenario the Nintendo defenders are advocating actually took place, where EVO went straight to Nintendo legal, get denied, and then tell everyone why Smash wouldn't be at EVO. The responses (probably from the same people) would've been "why didn't you contact PR first? what kind of idiot goes straight to legal?" The implication for any game stream has been "don't force the legal department to enforce their copyright", not "hide the weed from the copycops".
So Nintendo is the only company to bother enforcing copyright to the detriment of their brand because it's the only company forward-thinking enough to start shutting streams down? I don't understand what sort of realization you're "seeing".
With a ridiculous argument equating the two.
Oh give me a break, people can dislike Nintendo for this for all I care, but don't inflate it into some untrue bullshit. The only that thing would have happened is that ssbm wouldn't be streamed.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Oh my god
Professor Beef
Banned
You think EVO has always had a relationship with them? Here's a hint: they didn't. And the first thing Capcom did when they found out about it sure didn't involve running to their legal team.
But Capcom is also sane with it comes to community communications.
Karsticles
Member
Please, stop making Nintendo fans look bad. There is enough of a stigma around us already.
He's not. They initially said Melee tournament was not allowed, EVO worked it into happening with no stream. Que shitstorm and backpedaling, now the stream is on too.
call_kotaku
Member
Again, the issue isn't whether or not Nintendo has a right to shut down any external media or community event they want. The law absolutely allows them, as the holder of the IP, to do so.
They're just really, really dumb to want to.
They're just really, really dumb to want to.
You know what else is really dumb? Creating fictional motives for the capricious actions of a giant corporation for the sake of a personal agenda.
I wouldn't call it forward thinking at all, I'd just say it's more like thinking in the moment. A lot of those other guys, the "huge sample size" of other companies who haven't gotten involved with this stuff legally and kept it under the table, are all relatively small Japanese companies. Nintendo has a much bigger presence in the U.S. and obviously a larger legal department, so they're going to be the ones to set a precedent for stuff like this.
No, the obvious step is that once you have an agreement to use another company's IP, YOU GET IT IN WRITING AND MAKE SURE IT IS IRONCLAD. Especially if you think there will be issues later. Then Nintendo's legal department can't do shit, and more importantly EVO makes sure their tournament runs as smoothly as possible. Because that's what their goal should be, to run the best tournament possible, and that's not possible because apparently they had the sword of Damocles over their heads ever since they agreed to have Melee.
I suggest EVO starts creating a standard form that asks for permission to use another company's IP like I'm sure an organization like MLG uses, especially if this is a business to them(and it is). Documentation is there to cover your asses as much as it is a pain to fill it out.
That said, I'm not even sure why we're arguing anymore. I just wish EVO would start already because I want to see somebody get top 8 with Mr. Game and Watch.
darkblade77
Member
Is someone doing this? If so, exactly which words in which posts?
georgetheplushie
Member
The problem is that your comparison is incredibly flawed.
Yes, streaming music and movies for free online would be insane to call free advertising; you'd essentially be giving away the whole product.
Games, however, are interactive by nature, and by no means could it be considered to be anywhere near the same level of infringement as the prior example.
Honest to God, if it wasn't so late and I didn't have to get up so early, I'd sit here and point out a few of the poorly thought out logical fallacies being thrown every which way but I do need to go to sleep. In short though, pretty much every post trying to paint a picture of why this happened, how it happened, what the internal communication was or lack thereof, it's all set to the same old drumbeat of "nintendo = bad, nintendo = out of touch, nintendo so stoopid hur hur hur."
And while it might be true some or even most of the time, people getting all pissy for reasons they're making up in their heads is all kinds of idiotic. So what if they tried to shut it down initially? It was a bad move and they changed their minds incredibly quickly. The fact that it happened at all does matter but not as much as some people want you to believe. And the fact of the matter is, why they felt the need to do so, what kind of miscommunication occurred, and why the decision was reversed so quickly is all a matter of pure speculation. The fact that there are people trying to absolve EVO of all responsibility in the matter when clearly they're at fault as well should show you that this isn't really about EVO at all, it's just about getting mad at nintendo cuz damn, fuck nintendo! Those idiots!
Anywho, that's all I got for now, goodnight.
call_kotaku
Member
I don't know what's fictional about them wanting to shut down the Melee tournament at Evo, because that's a factual thing that actually happened. Unless they sent an email to the wrong address I suppose.
Capcom, Atlus, Namco, Tecmo, Sega, and Sony aren't small companies, and they're often criticized for being very passive and hands-off with community outreach in the US, especially with regards to the competitive community even though they sponsor events and attempt to communicate. None of them tried to shut down a 700-man tournament for one of their games. Heck, Sega couldn't manage that sort of turnout even though they paid for theirs, and they're the pioneers of the youtube takedown. Nintendo is the definite outlier here.
As a result MLG could never stream Brawl or Capcom games, so we already know what would've happened. There's a bigger gray area with Evo since it's a community-run event (even though it's quite large), and it's not a company with investors and a board like MLG is. What's the cutoff for IP holders to shut your event down? 10 people? 20 people? Do I need permission to stream anything someone owns without a written contract? If we moneymatch in melee do I need to give the money to Nintendo?
From now on I don't think EVO will try to run Nintendo games ever again, so I guess somebody out there is ecstatic.
And not every company will have the same response to potential IP infringement. You say that Capcom's approach to the FGC is 'sane', but they have a much longer history associated with fighting games in general, and they specific people and positions to interact with the Fighting Game Community. Smash is Nintendo's only fighting franchise, and there's no Seth Killian equivalent (that we know of) working for Nintendo.
And you're still not answering why the organizers of EVO didn't make sure all of their issues weren't taken care of. You can blame Nintendo all you want for having idiotic lawyers, and Nintendo's lawyers are certainly idiotic, but again, if you know those idiotic lawyers are an issue, you need to have a strategy to potentially deal with them.
Apparently, EVO's strategy was hope like hell that any potential bad PR would get Nintendo to reverse their decision. It worked. I certainly wouldn't have gotten down that route, and it speaks to the fact that EVO needs somebody to handle their own PR matters in concerns with companies. This shit just doesn't happen if you lock down everything.
darkblade77
Member
Well, that made a lot more sense than what you said earlier. (ijs!)
But educated speculation is the natural course of events in threads like this, where everyone is going off of limited information. I think it's pretty natural to want to fill in the blanks how you want them on either side of the argument.
I do have to agree that thanks to this response, this may end up crippling the Smash community's odds at entering Evo again.
Personally, I think that the timing of the C&D was completely intentional(how often do you see those massive well-followed but IP-infringing fan projects get served by C&Ds mere days before public release?), and that if it hadn't been for the PR backlash, Nintendo had every intention of quashing the exposure of the existing competitive Smash fanbase--likely in preparation for the new title.
As long as the public outcry is as swift and focused as it was here the next time this happens, I think there's not much to worry about. But it's got to be a really stressful time to be a competitive Smash fan right now.
Wait they did? Do you have a link? Prepared to eat crow.
I see you didn't read the breaking news, they were actually going after the cancelation of the SSBM tournament not just limiting themselves to stop the streaming.
And you give me a break not only nintendo fans were to suffer the limited vision of the company with half a decade old hardware and software (not matter what fans say, they really want good online and up to date hardware) and a disgusting drought of games for their main platform but now they actually banish people having fun with an 11 years old game?
No fucking thanks, i've handled the situation up until now but this time they really crossed the line, and for what then? a couple of thousand dollars? Tsk.
Oh and i saw people compare the situation to the XB1 and how nintendo were fast to reverse the decision, useless to say that is ridiculous because with XB1 microsoft had to change entire projection of revenue and profit without even considering the change of the infrastructure when for nintendo this event would have as much as influence as 20 console sold on a month, it's obvious that Microsoft took their time to change. And it's way way waaaaaay too easy to revert a decision when there is such an outcry... but this doesn't mean their initial principle of canceling the stream/tournament. But i'm sure that for some of you this will be forgotten in a week or two.
Stabby McSter
Member
http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/11/45...hut-down-evo-not-just-super-smash-bros-melee?
edit: oh, that eventhubs link sure has more info :<
welp, that's pretty irrational. I mean, how could they see this resulting in anything else than bad PR?
Not to mention giving a loud FUCK YOU to all of your most devoted fans.
welp, that's pretty irrational. I mean, how could they see this resulting in anything else than bad PR?
call_kotaku
Member
Nintendo gonna Nintendo, I guess.
In general I think Nintendo fans need to be critical of these sorts of moves instead of defending them, because Nintendo needs that PR right now and shouldn't be celebrated for repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot at every turn, no matter how much you like their games. A 700-person tournament at EVO (largest ever?) that will probably be watched by tens of thousands of fans, and coming a month after a new Smash was showcased at E3, is probably the biggest platform to promote the game directly to its most dedicated fanbase. They should be criticized for not taking advantage of it, much less defended for trying to shut it down.
Most Nintendo fans were really critical of this move. Only a minority of extremely invested people defended it.
SolarPowered
Member
It feels like there are more drones than smash fans here. Smashers better start coming out of the woodwork on Saturday because more of this in the EVO thread will drive me up a wall.
So Company A uses Company B's property to sell tickets, then we're supposed to be mad at Company B if they feel A didn't follow the appropriate guidelines in using it's property to make more money? Let us remember that this is a dispute between two companies, not a company and it's own fans.
Oh boy.
call_kotaku
Member
Yeah, it seems like the case. But you'd think after a bunch of "yeah good riddance" responses to the news in this thread and elsewhere, they'd be invested in Smash having a visible platform and good PR instead of "yeah it shouldn't have been there". Nintendo repeatedly bumbling about in this market like a lost grandpa with Alzheimers is great comedy for people like me who have no stake in Nintendo's success, but I think anyone that cares about Nintendo's future shouldn't validate its failures.
It is the fans who make the event happen in the first place. Do not forget that this is an open tournament. Cancelling it at the last minute would have spat in the face of all registrants, squander all travel plans made for it, and kill the idea of ever having such an event again. Smash would possibly be left without a real competitive scene, and deeply compound the damage Brawl has already inflicted on the brand.
So yes, the fans are involved here.
Why are some acting like Evo didn't talk to Nintendo at all? Mr. Wizard flat out says they did, and I trust him and the rest of the staff to have been thorough because they've been doing this a long time. On their end, they probably figured everything was squared away. Then here comes legal out of nowhere all "No you cannot" at the last fucking minute.
There was some error in communication here, but let's not start acting like the Evo staff don't know how to do their jobs.
Regardless, this move sets a pretty dangerous precedent as far as streaming and Nintendo games go. And the timing couldn't be worse as the competitive Nintendo community is starting to adopt streams more and more.
As much as people rail on them for whatever stupid reason, I respect the Smash community. They put in work time and again for just to play the game they love the way they love to play it. Here, they even went so far as to put up their hard earned money in a charity drive they had no guarantee of winning. All for a chance to play their game on the big stage at the biggest fighting game tournament in the world. And yet, the biggest challenge that always be in their way is the company who made the fucking game they love. It boggles the mind.
There was some error in communication here, but let's not start acting like the Evo staff don't know how to do their jobs.
Regardless, this move sets a pretty dangerous precedent as far as streaming and Nintendo games go. And the timing couldn't be worse as the competitive Nintendo community is starting to adopt streams more and more.
As much as people rail on them for whatever stupid reason, I respect the Smash community. They put in work time and again for just to play the game they love the way they love to play it. Here, they even went so far as to put up their hard earned money in a charity drive they had no guarantee of winning. All for a chance to play their game on the big stage at the biggest fighting game tournament in the world. And yet, the biggest challenge that always be in their way is the company who made the fucking game they love. It boggles the mind.
wait, you're doing all of this complaining and you don't even care about the games?
A corporation oversees the event. The fans could have made a Melee event on their own, but decided to stump for a existing corporation's event instead.
The corporation that oversees the event shouldn't put something not set in stone up to get more ticket sales with, then. It's a spit in the face to promise the community they're supposedly nurturing something without having their ducks in a row.
I remain skeptical of promoters after MLG used their community as pawns to get better payment contracts by pitching their base against their partners under the guise of fan support. And this still seems like it was company v company dispute, not Nintendo vs Smash players.
You're assuming this because the use of the term "corporation" gives emotional weight to your argument, but you're not correct. You don't even know what Evo is, how it got started, or how it operates, and yet you're making these sort of claims.
Evo is a public tournament, with sponsors and actual rented space.. Who are the sponsors sending their money to? Who's name is the space rented out under? Who underwrites the tournament payout winnings at the regionals and finals?
Santa?
Yeah, fuck off with that I don't know what EVO is bullshit. I've been following it for years.
SRKX Productions LLC, which is basically Tony Cannon and Tom Cannon (the same that own shoryuken.com) along with Joey "MrWizard" Cuellar.
None of the above are corporations, and the LLC didn't exist until a couple years ago.
No, you don't. Watching a stream on the internet doesn't expose you to the details of how FGC majors are run, and your ignorance is on display.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'm late on this, but I can't let this one go:
- Your course of action ends with the tournament cancelled before it can get off the ground, with no party walking away happy.
- EVO's course of action ends largely without incident.
The lengths some people go to argue against their own interests is maddening.
So...
- Your course of action ends with the tournament cancelled before it can get off the ground, with no party walking away happy.
- EVO's course of action ends largely without incident.
The lengths some people go to argue against their own interests is maddening.
So the issue is between SRKX Productions and Nintendo of America, then
I meant in the general sense of a company or business unit. This isn't a fan smote down by lawyers. You'll have to excuse me here as I've been employed by Canadians for so long at this point and they don't really have the concept of the LLC
And your qualifications are? I've played in various tournaments for various genres, from ones run inside a community college to local MLG tournaments and other various homegrown and more professional outings. In all cases, the tournament didn't apparate out of thin air, and whenever money was involved, a business entity was involved for liability and trust reasons. I somehow doubt EVO happens because the love of the community wills it into existence (someone has to call the shots or it'll turn into a clusterfuck, fast), and I continue to find it amusing and insulting that you feel free to assume my level of involvement with the pro gaming community and pro gaming business entities.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
You think those dozens of people commentating and running brackets do it as a day job? Or that they all even get paid for it, period (beyond some free swag or waived venue fees)?
It isn't even a full-time thing for the people in charge. Tony Cannon is a software developer at some other company.
call_kotaku
Member
What am I complaining about exactly? I have no stake in the success of Nintendo as a company or its relevance to the gaming market, but it's actively damaging to communities if legal departments enforce the letter of copyright law without considering the consequences. It's absolutely important that companies realize that aggressively legislating against enthusiasts hurts everybody, and fortunately most of them do.
EDIT: Also, for those of you who are on the "EVO needs permission to run someone's game" train, where do you draw the cutoff point for these sorts of things, exactly? Number of entrants? Amount of sponsors? Ads on stream? Prize Pot? Total revenue? If I decided to organize a 10-man tournament tomorrow and stream it on twitch, do I need to ask permission? What if I organized a 700-man tournament and streamed it, what about then? If I have a high-profile money match for $15,000 dollars with someone, how much of that do I need to give to Nintendo if I win?