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Fighting Games Weekly | July 22-28 | Life's A Beech

LordJim said:
All the things you mention about SFIV are emergent.
Optimal ways to play characters, easing execution etc.
As far as universal mechanics go, P4A has much more things you need to wrap your head around and more mobility options.
Only easier aspect is inputs, really
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What things that I need to wrap my head around though? I'm coming from the POV of someone who was an absolute beginner to fighting games, started with sfiv and p4a around the same time and came out learning and playing in p4a's system much faster than I did sfiv's. Only thing you needed to know as a beginner were that you can dash in the air and you can run.(which actually makes it easier for a beginner than constantly having to dash) execution wise it was easier with AAAAA, meaning I didn't really have to think about the combo I wanted to do, I could just go in and mash A and cool stuff would come out. Character wise it was just as straight forward if not more so if you want to play someone other than ryu/men. And it didnt have focus attacks. When you go into a match and get demolished you don't sit in astonishment because your opponent was doing a certain safe jump or ambiguous crossup on you that you wouldn't understand unless you sat down and searched the internet for what those terms meant, you would just get your ass beat. The things that were more complicated were very easy to see or pull off.(and really that's only limited to instant air dashes and rolls that don't have a bunch of different functions) for me it was just far more straightforward to play and far more understandable why I won or lost compared to sfiv, where you probably won't have any idea due to all the hidden tech.

I mean sure, if a beginner plays sfiv with only other fighting game beginners, thus ensuring that they are never exposed to the underlying game and can jump back sweep all day, then I would say that yes sfiv is more simple. But most newbies playing fighters for the first time aren't going to be in such a bubble like that. I know I wasn't. Not to mention its simply not as fun as thinking you're doing cool shit mashing AAAAA when you actually suck. Its exactly like the DMC/cod comparison he made in the article.
 
Karsius said:
What things that I need to wrap my head around though? I'm coming from the POV of someone who was an absolute beginner to fighting games, started with sfiv and p4a around the same time and came out learning and playing in p4a's system much faster than I did sfiv's. Only thing you needed to know as a beginner were that you can dash in the air and you can run.(which actually makes it easier for a beginner than constantly having to dash) execution wise it was easier with AAAAA, meaning I didn't really have to think about the combo I wanted to do, I could just go in and mash A and cool stuff would come out. Character wise it was just as straight forward if not more so if you want to play someone other than ryu/men. And it didnt have focus attacks. When you go into a match and get demolished you don't sit in astonishment because your opponent was doing a certain safe jump or ambiguous crossup on you that you wouldn't understand unless you sat down and searched the internet for what those terms meant, you would just get your ass beat. The things that were more complicated were very easy to see or pull off.(and really that's only limited to instant air dashes and rolls that don't have a bunch of different functions) for me it was just far more straightforward to play and far more understandable why I won or lost compared to sfiv, where you probably won't have any idea due to all the hidden tech.

I mean sure, if a beginner plays sfiv with only other fighting game beginners, thus ensuring that they are never exposed to the underlying game and can jump back sweep all day, then I would say that yes sfiv is more simple. But most newbies playing fighters for the first time aren't going to be in such a bubble like that. I know I wasn't. Not to mention its simply not as fun as thinking you're doing cool shit mashing AAAAA when you actually suck. Its exactly like the DMC/cod comparison he made in the article.
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If you want to get really technical about it, there's no such thing as an "easy" or "difficult" fighting game, and that's simply because the object of the game is to defeat a human opponent. Any difficulty derived from that is simply a result of how skilled your opponent is at that particular game. Fighting games can be more simple or more complex than one another, or they may place importance on different particular skills, but they are never easy or hard on the merits of the games themselves.

So it's a matter of comfort, accessibility, clarity, and just plain preference when learning a game that matters. Personally, combo breakers and the considerations that come with them (baiting, recharge period, etc.) are awkward to me. A specific button combination to turn around mid-air seemed really obtuse. (And there were a slew of other global system mechanics tied to various button combinations; this is just the one that stuck out to me more than anything else.) There were lots of status effects. Negative Penalty is still the most obnoxious-sounding fighting game system mechanic I've been exposed to. I'm sure there must be a reason why it exists, but it's so typically part of that ArcSys "this is how you're supposed to play the game" ethos that just rubs me all sorts of wrong ways.

And while there seemed to be a lengthy list of system rules to learn... there were only 2 "normal attack" buttons, more or less. So the character movesets seemed really limited. That combination doesn't really jive with me. I just personally enjoy exploring a character/team more than the system that surrounds them, and I like to feel as if I'm learning character and match-up intricacies more than rules. That's not really something that P4A facilitates.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
If you want to get really technical about it, there's no such thing as an "easy" or "difficult" fighting game, and that's simply because the object of the game is to defeat a human opponent. Any difficulty derived from that is simply a result of how skilled your opponent is at that particular game. Fighting games can be more simple or more complex than one another, or they may place importance on different particular skills, but they are never easy or hard on the merits of the games themselves.

So it's a matter of comfort, accessibility, clarity, and just plain preference when learning a game that matters. Personally, combo breakers and the considerations that come with them (baiting, recharge period, etc.) are awkward to me. A specific button combination to turn around mid-air seemed really obtuse. (And there were a slew of other global system mechanics tied to various button combinations; this is just the one that stuck out to me more than anything else.) There were lots of status effects. Negative Penalty is still the most obnoxious-sounding fighting game system mechanic I've been exposed to. I'm sure there must be a reason why it exists, but it's so typically part of that ArcSys "this is how you're supposed to play the game" ethos that just rubs me all sorts of wrong ways.

And while there seemed to be a lengthy list of system rules to learn... there were only 2 "normal attack" buttons, more or less. So the character movesets seemed really limited. That combination doesn't really jive with me. I just personally enjoy exploring a character/team more than the system that surrounds them, and I like to feel as if I'm learning characters and match-ups more than rules. That's not really something that P4A facilitates.
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Why do people keep saying there are only 2 "normal" attack buttons. Why are persona attacks not consider normal attacks? For my character, they are another set of normals I use. Its like saying dhalsim ranged normals are not normals (in the context to my character at least).

You know, I actually like the air turn button combination. Its so that people have to dedicate their crossups. None of that "Its a 50/50 because I don't know what side I'm going to hit you so there is no way you know either." I wished more games had it. Shit is so stupid when you have those shitty ass hitbox moves that cross you up but you land on the same side.

Status elements don't really seem that bad. Marvel has some (to some degree). Morrigan can steal meter, Hawkeye can poison you, Modok can reverse your controls.

The only major two that person has is paralyze (obvious what it does), and fear.
There is the roll, but its so similar to KOF's roll its whatever.
There is the shorthop button, but once again similar to KOF (just p4a is a button combo).
OMB/Gold Burst/Blue Burst are all the same. They are burst/combo breakers.
OMC I guess is new. Its basically XFC.


There are a bit of buttons, and if you're new to fighting games I can see it being difficult. But if you played other fighting games outside capcom, I can't see it being that difficult to learn. I really feel like its just over exaggerated.

But no question about SF4 being easier than P4A at a beginner level. Shit is a hands down winner.

DOA/SC5>SF4>Marvel/P4A>Tekken> in terms of easy to hard for beginners imo.
 
I couldn't make heads or tails out of P4A's mechanics or how to play when someone let me try it. Fucking ASW couldn't design their way out of a paper bag without adding some meters to it.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I'd definitely agree with it, too.

I have the same problem with P4A as I've had with the other ArcSys games I've played: too many goddamn rules/subsystems/meters/etc. By the time I was done browsing the tutorials I had lost almost all motivation to play the game. It just feels like I'm spending all of my time learning rules instead of characters, and I don't get that feeling from other fighting games.
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This sums up exactly what I went through during the interest phase I had with the game.

I used to be able to watch it too out of sheer curiosity, but now I can't anymore.
 
I agree that, at a beginner level, SF4 is way easier to grasp and get into than P4A is. Not only is the game simpler in appearance, but it also comes from a long legacy that nearly every player now knows, whether they played with it or not. I have quite a lot of friends who enjoy playing some SF4 casually. Once I bringed over P4A: they were all at loss and telling me it was so much more complicated to play than SF4.
Truth is, though, that once you start to know the genre a little bit better, it's clear that it's indeed the other way around: P4A is the easier game to play. By a long shot.

But yeah, SF4 is a very easy game to get into for beginners, but it gets complicated (and sometimes daunting) reaaaaally fast, while P4A is a game that can frighten beginners, but reveals itself as very casual-friendly once you take the little time it takes to learn its mechanics.
 
ian to the max said:
While I can't offer anything concrete on that end as I'm not personally involved with any of the design decisions, I'm pretty sure the forums are going to be looked into.
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The forums are atrocious. I basically stopped going there after the last forum redesign--I was already at my limit and they somehow downgraded it.

The main page is still extremely underwhelming, but definitely an improvement.

I just don't get what SRK's deal is; the website design has sucked shit since I can remember.
 
I look at it like this:

curven4ujm.png
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* SF4 starts out easy. You can jump and sweep and throw a few fireballs and have a good time. Importantly, even against a better player you'll get plenty of chances to "play". You might get punished for doing stupid things, but in that you'll feel like you're learning.
* UMVC3 if anything starts out even easier with ABCD and flashy combos and team supers. But you'll quickly learn you don't get to play if you don't know what you are doing and wrapping your head around assists and everything that is going on is very difficult and just gets harder the longer you think about it.
* BB, especially in CSX form is a bit of a cluster fuck. Lots there of course, but you are not going to jump in straight away and start playing.
* P4A is similar but much easier to wrap your head around. But even then, you can't push buttons and not get destroyed and have to understand character systems, controlling personas (which is not trivial) and learning the unusual movements. Because the game is "simpler" you also can't get away with ignoring one more bursts like in SF4 where you don't ever really have to deal with FADC.
* MK9 is there for a cheap laugh.
 
The new SRK homepage is an improvement. Still seems bloated to an extent but definitely an improvement. But yeah, I agree about the too much white space stuff.
 
toddhunter said:
I look at it like this:
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I think MvC3 should start high but not increase that much, simply due to the team nature of the game. You're expected to understand more things up-front: how to play 3 characters instead of 1, what factors into making a good and complete team instead of just a good single character, proper assist usage, etc. Once you're over that initial hump and have enough character familiarity, it's fairly easy to follow.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I think MvC3 should start high but not increase that much, simply due to the team nature of the game. You're expected to understand more things up-front: how to play 3 characters instead of 1, what factors into making a good and complete team instead of just a good single character, proper assist usage, etc. Once you're over that initial hump and have enough character familiarity, it's fairly easy to follow.
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I guess I'm just basing that on my experience, where I could more or less get in and play it as a 1v1 game and have a decent time (Vanilla Sentinel helped).

But then yeah, trying to wrap my head around playing it "properly" was a big hump to get over.

Then I'm factoring in movement and wave dashing, trying to block and all those sorts of things. The bias here is because I don't play it, it all looks like voodoo to me.
 
Chrisness said:
It probably costs more than that for Riot.

I'm pretty sure a F2P USF4 would bring in more revenue than what they plan on doing now. Most SF fans will still pay the $15 for the upgrade, but now you'll get a revenue from a whole new set of players who may very well pay $40 once they play enough to unlock the full game.
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There is no way that LoL characters costs more to make than a Street Fighter character.
 
K.Sabot said:
Reported Makoto changes currently via someone who asked combo and goes to the SRK makoto forum.

"Makoto is going to be top tier in ultra.
I spoke to combo at evo. Here's what you guys want to know.

U2 fire ball invulnerable
U1 damage nerf
1000 life
Fukiage hits grounded opponents
Larger cross up hit box on j.mk
EX Oroshi throw invulnerable"

V-Ryu on the changes.

"For now, only EX version hits grounded opponent.
It seems to be VERY strong, since you can do:

- f+LP > ex fuki, or crLK/crMP os ex fuki.
- Jump attack OS ex fuki
- air to air > land > ex fuki crossdown mixuo
- ex fuki > ultra2
Etc"

Makoto top tier would be pretty hype to watch. Also HALLELUJAH for finding a use for her 3 frame f.lp. Of course these are subject to change, unfortunately.
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cDgMF0s.gif


Oh dis gun be good! :D

Been repping her since Super so hopefully these changes are true; it sounds like she would be much closer to her true Third Strike self with these changes. And lol at all the whiners calling her a derp character... I think everyone is so bias / bitchy about the Ultra comeback mechanic that they assume any hard-hitting character must be braindead. Nonsense; Mak was always a get in and hit 'em hard character with high damage and stun to compensate her inherent zoning and wake-up flaws.
 
Professor Beef said:
That's not why people claim she's derp, but ok.
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It sure seems like it if not; I remember in the Evo thread people getting annoyed at how Haitani's Mak was getting bodied and stunned in two combos by Cammy, and then coming back to win. "Oh raw Ultra and then ridiculous damage and combos to counter stun and win... so derp" (I paraphrase of course!). Anyway, that's momentum for you (and she's a momentum character), it's not braindead.

Feel free to enlighten me though on what it is they feel is braindead about her specifically.

Edit: I realise you may not agree with their claims (or mine) and are probably just playing devil's advocate, so not calling you out Beef, hehe. Though I'm genuinely interested in understanding how exactly she is considered braindead, compared to say, Viper or Cammy. She's a character with such obvious flaws that it seems absurd to me that people would consider her braindead or "easy mode" or whatever it is they think is retarded about her.
 
pirateben said:
cDgMF0s.gif


Oh dis gun be good! :D

Been repping her since Super so hopefully these changes are true; it sounds like she would be much closer to her true Third Strike self with these changes. And lol at all the whiners calling her a derp character... I think everyone is so bias / bitchy about the Ultra comeback mechanic that they assume any hard-hitting character must be braindead. Nonsense; Mak was always a get in and hit 'em hard character with high damage and stun to compensate her inherent zoning and wake-up flaws.
Click to expand...

Makoto's derp. She's not on the same level of derp as some characters because there's at least risk involved in a lot of the things she does, but she's still pretty derp.

I don't "assume" anything BTW.
 
Still not getting why she's derp exactly, since, as you say, there's risk involved in her getting in, mixing up, and doing damage; hardly braindead... waiting to be convinced otherwise here.

The argument seems to be - "she's derp because she's derp, even though she has to work for it"; so not sure what else to believe / assume ;P aside from it's just a general dislike of her ability to output high stun and damage to comeback combined with the system's comeback mechanic.
 
High risk / high reward characters with a hard learning curve are derp now?
Ok, whatever, I guess...

I really don't think the "hit hard" factor qualifies for being labelled as "derp", especially when the character is designed to have many flaws preventing her from hitting in the first place, but whatever float your boat I suppose.
 
I don't get this "derp" definition. For me, a character is derp when he kills you doing basically nothing with little execution required (a.k.a. Vergil)
 
pirateben said:
Still not getting why she's derp exactly, since, as you say, there's risk involved in her getting in, mixing up, and doing damage; hardly braindead... waiting to be convinced otherwise here.

The argument seems to be - "she's derp because she's derp, even though she has to work for it"; so not sure what else to believe / assume ;P aside from it's just a general dislike of her ability to output high stun and damage to comeback combined with the system's comeback mechanic.
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A character like Makoto is only derp when she wins and she can do a lot of that in the right hands.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
I'd definitely agree with it, too.

I have the same problem with P4A as I've had with the other ArcSys games I've played: too many goddamn rules/subsystems/meters/etc. By the time I was done browsing the tutorials I had lost almost all motivation to play the game. It just feels like I'm spending all of my time learning rules instead of characters, and I don't get that feeling from other fighting games.
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Maybe it's just from poking around various fighting games before, but system mechanics really aren't the hard part in ASW fighting games. I mean, Street Fighter has already come up with various things to learn, like quick rise, parry, alpha counter, focus attack, FADC, super jump, kara cancelling, and so on. Stuff like perfect/barrier guard, throws out of hitstun, air/ground teching, and such isn't much more to pick up. The hard part, in my opinion, is actually picking up a character. They're all ostensibly different and your damage output from just hitting single moves with good fundamentals is not sufficient to have a great chance at beating somebody versed in their own character even if they're weaker as a player. It's not like going from Ryu to Sagat where you may not be familiar with the various tools Sagat has and what he's best at, but you may already have a good sense of the fireball game and basic normals to get you by.

Unless, of course, you pick somebody like Tager or Noel. Tager because you can just do 360s and 720s, and Noel because you can pretty much mash like an idiot instead of going into training mode.
 
I just wanted to point out that Lost Fragment plays Makoto (or played, it's been a while since I've played other gaffers). He definitely did during Super. And he has definitely experienced Jlai's Makoto. Fucking jlai...
 
El Sloth said:
I just wanted to point out that Lost Fragment plays Makoto (or played, it's been a while since I've played other gaffers). He definitely did during Super. And he has definitely experienced Jlai's Makoto. Fucking jlai...
Click to expand...

That man will not stop pressing buttons ... ever !
 
El Sloth said:
I just wanted to point out that Lost Fragment plays Makoto (or played, it's been a while since I've played other gaffers). He definitely did during Super. And he has definitely experienced Jlai's Makoto. Fucking jlai...
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Yep, knew that.
But it's funny how bitter he now sounds toward the character. Maybe it's just my imagination, though.
 
QisTopTier said:
I FOUND MY CHARACTER
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Some good rushdown pressure with divekicks and a auto crossup using that ex dash move of hers when you're close enough (although it looks like it can be stuffed on reaction). I think boobs have once again led you to a good character!

I wonder how the Dhalsim-like character they have planned as a future addition, the Urien looking lady with the hood, is going to be viable in a game with parries.
 
El Sloth said:
Some good rushdown pressure with divekicks and a auto crossup using that ex dash move of hers when you're close enough (although it looks like it can be stuffed on reaction). I think boobs have once again led you to a good character!

I wonder how the Dhalsim-like character they have planned as future addition, the Urien looking lady with the hood, is going to be viable in a game with parries.
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My instant attachment to characters never lets me down!
This is 100% true
 
Clawww said:
The forums are atrocious. I basically stopped going there after the last forum redesign--I was already at my limit and they somehow downgraded it.

The main page is still extremely underwhelming, but definitely an improvement.

I just don't get what SRK's deal is; the website design has sucked shit since I can remember.
Click to expand...

While I can't really do anything about it, I'm sorry you've had such a...rough experience with the forum redesign. I will say that "sucked shit" doesn't really offer me any idea of what you dislike about the site and how it can improve, though.
 
Horseress said:
I don't get this "derp" definition. For me, a character is derp when he kills you doing basically nothing with little execution required (a.k.a. Vergil)
Click to expand...
Derp just means not a lot of thought required. If something is super good you don't have to think as hard when you use it. It's not really an execution thing it's more of a game plan thing. Any time you can use a flow chart to win or do well, that's derp.
 
ian to the max said:
While I can't really do anything about it, I'm sorry you've had such a...rough experience with the forum redesign. I will say that "sucked shit" doesn't really offer me any idea of what you dislike about the site and how it can improve, though.
Click to expand...

There is a giant thread with people telling you guys what is wrong with it on your forum: http://forums.shoryuken.com/categories/shoryuken-com-feedback

The fact is, the reason why people are in this thread, and gamefaqs, and reddit, and wherever else the communities are huge is because you guys have a forum that looks like it was done in 2005, which was strange because the one before that looked like 2008.

You should just take the neogaf/gamefaqs simple template and just redesign from there.
 
The new SRK front page is an improvement, but the site has been so shitty for so long that I don't care anymore. There's really nothing SRK could change that would make me use the site again.
 
Hey FGC. I'm looking for a Ryu combo video on youtube that I saw a few years back. Each combo transitions between different games that Ryu is in....and the transition is almost seamless.

Does anyone know which video I'm talking about? Or know where to find it?
 
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