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[kaching]

I know it's popular on NeoGAF to want a 1.8 TF beast of a console that has an OS so small its basically a command line.

Is 1-2 GB "so small" now? Is there really no better balance than to reserve almost 40% of onboard RAM to OS services?

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

You can have as much apps as you want and still devote the 100% of the power to games. They only steal resources from games if you want them to run while you are gaming.

Thats a gross oversimplification. Fast task switching like the type shown on both the PS4 and the XB1 requires RAM to cache data in. Being able record gameplay in the background requires resources as well.

 

[avaya]

Why are you here then in this thread? Just to feel vidicated?

No, just to amuse myself. What's there to be vindicated about? Shitty console specs harm everyone, they lead to developers targeting mediocre multiplatform specs. There is every reason as a gamer to be less than pleased with the bone's specs in particular.

 

[Darklor01]

As I understand it, the PS4 doesn't allow multiple applications to run at the same time.
Certain background applications are suspended in state and can be resumed if the player switches from the game to the app.
That setup wouldn't be ideal for a game like Battlefield that wants to integrate Battlelog into the user's game experience.

So on the PS4 they might have to include it into the game, using the game's resources while on the Xbox One they could build a companion app that could be snapped and would use the OS resources.

I think that is the idea trying to be conveyed by the example.

Would this be what the PS4 "flex ram" might be used for?

 

[LukasTaves]

Nobody minds having all those features on a console. The question is whether these things have to run concurrently with the game and thereby compete for resources and screen space.

They don't compete for resources, not when running anyway... Xbone games only have less resources than 90% of Gpu and Cpu if the user is not interacting with the game (Ie: If you expand the app and leave the game on a small area of the screen, or when the game is not visible at all)

Wait. PS4 games only get 90% GPU?

Not sure they get 90%, but they for sure won't get 100%, because if they got, a simple notification pop up could cause the game to slowdown.

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

People actually care about OS features for a game console?

Good thing I don't care about other crap over games for a game console, and lucky for me that Sony has the developers, and brings the games I care about.

Microsoft can waste all they want on OS features with Kinect, because I don't buy a game console for the crap Microsoft seems to really care about.

Luckily for Microsoft there are huge market segments of consumers who like their games and also happen to care about other stuff.

 

[Bsigg12]

Would this be what the PS4 "flex ram" might be used for?

No that will be handled in the OS partition. Both the PS4 and XB1 have to have RAM and CPU resources reserved to be able to do the instant switching and run party chat/notifications/background downloads/etc.

 

[ElTorro]

They don't compete for resources, not when running anyway... Xbone games only have less resources than 90% of Gpu and Cpu if the user is not interacting with the game (Ie: If you expand the app and leave the game on a small area of the screen, or when the game is not visible at all)

They do not "compete" for resources dynamically, but they compete for resources in the sense that they get their part of the consoles overall resource budget. Obviously, they have their portion of main memory and CPU time, even when the game is running. That is the whole point of Microsoft's OS virtualization approach.

But I guess you know that and I just worded my statement poorly.

 

[JonathanPower]

.
The whole point of giving the OS ownership of memory is so that it can deny request in the future if they add features to the OS.
It is inherently not guaranteed, and therefore is something that developers have to design around.

Nope. The "flexible memory" is always available for games, according to Sony.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-system-software-memory

"Flexible Memory" is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game's behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100 per cent the game's memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game's memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.

 

[avaya]

Luckily for Microsoft there are huge market segments of consumers who like their games and also happen to care about other stuff.

Source?

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

Source?

Common sense

 

[Darklor01]

No that will be handled in the OS partition. Both the PS4 and XB1 have to have RAM and CPU resources reserved to be able to do the instant switching and run party chat/notifications/background downloads/etc.

Ok, cool. In any case, i think it's best not to worry about it too much. If it has negative affect on gaming, then, issue, otherwise, good stuff.

 

[Bsigg12]

Source?

The 77 million 360s sold? The 360 does not just play games, it and the PS3 are pretty much entertainment platforms at this point.

 

[avaya]

Common sense

So tales from my ass.

 

[chrominance]

I don't get it. I thought the majority of the concerns about a "split RAM pool" had to do with the ESRAM/DDR3 split, NOT the OS/game partitioning stuff. Not that OXM was likely to address the ESRAM vs. unified GDDR5 thing anyways, I guess, but the headline seems a little misleading in that light.

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

So tales from my ass.

I'm not exactly sure what your argument is.
Are you trying to argue that consumers don't care for Microsoft's games? Because you're wrong.
Are you trying to argue that consumers don't care about features? Because you're wrong.
Are you trying to argue that consumers will actively dismiss a console because it has more features than it's competitors? Because.... that just sounds ignorant.

Please enlighten me so we can have an actual conversation instead of you attempting to derail a thread for the sake of console wars.

 

[mrklaw]

My problem with all this secondary app stuff is that I already have all of this on my tablet, even while sitting in front of a TV. I just don't care about yet another device giving me access to boring, ubiquitous stuff like social networks, communication, and media.

I guess it is a race for MS to demonstrate value before tablets become so popular they make it irrelevant. At least for social stuff - for media apps there is more leeway for value add, eg a plex app would be well suited to a TV screen. But most of those experiences will be foreground apps, I wouldn't need them to necessarily multitask, so 3Gb still sounds a lot

 

[Chobel]

As I understand it, the PS4 doesn't allow multiple applications to run at the same time.
Certain background applications are suspended in state and can be resumed if the player switches from the game to the app.
That setup wouldn't be ideal for a game like Battlefield that wants to integrate Battlelog into the user's game experience.

So on the PS4 they might have to include it into the game, using the game's resources while on the Xbox One they could build a companion app that could be snapped and would use the OS resources.

I think that is the idea trying to be conveyed by the example.

Assuming PS4 don't run multiple apps at the same time, any app will take 100% of PS4 resources.
In XB1: the game will take only 90% from XB1 resources + battlelog (OS always take 10%)
In PS4: the battlelog will take max 10% from the resources ( actually a lot less)+ the game will take the rest (more than 90%)

Assuming the above Battlefield will benefit more from PS4 than XB1.

 

[gruenel]

Not sure they get 90%, but they for sure won't get 100%, because if they got, a simple notification pop up could cause the game to slowdown.

Well. Even the PS3 could handle popups without slowdown.

Unless what you mean by saying "they for sure won't get 100%" is "they will only get 99.99% for the duration of a millisecond". Then I agree of course.

Anyway, this is off-topic.

 

[JonathanPower]

Thats a gross oversimplification. Fast task switching like the type shown on both the PS4 and the XB1 requires RAM to cache data in. Being able record gameplay in the background requires resources as well.

On PS4 there are only a limited number of applications like video recording running during a game and there is dedicated hw for them to not affect game performance.

 

[Interfectum]

Source?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/ent...inment-gaming-hbo-go-comcast-xfinity-mlb.html

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

On PS4 there are only a limited number of applications like video recording running during a game and there is dedicated hw for them to not affect game performance.

The dedicated hardware you're referring to is the CPU/GPU and RAM. Both consoles have GPU/CPU cycles and RAM sequestered away for non-gaming tasks. I sincerely hope you do not think that either console has no hardware for non-gaming tasks while games are running, because that's simply not true. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative of the PS4 but it's true.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

If I have to be honest, I'm not super excited about the idea of cluttering up my TV screen with things that aren't the game I'm playing.

Maybe that's just me, I dunno. I'm sure this will greatly benefit people without a tablet or laptop nearby tho.

 

[avaya]

I'm not exactly sure what your argument is.
Are you trying to argue that consumers don't care for Microsoft's games? Because you're wrong.
Are you trying to argue that consumers don't care about features? Because you're wrong.
Are you trying to argue that consumers will actively dismiss a console because it has more features than it's competitors? Because.... that just sounds ignorant.

1. Outside of Halo, probably yes. Xbox was COD box. Third party games matter more.
2. They do but they don't sell the box, the gaming features of the box sell the box. Sony learnt this the hard way.
3. No, where did I say that? Having "more features" is a pretty irrelevant metric. What matters is have features that actually appeal to consumers. The people that wanted fad Kinect already have fad kinect. See Wii. The most popular use for these consoles will be TV convergence devices not catch all twitter facebook nonsense since that shit is done better on a smartphone/tablet. Whatever gives you the games and at a better price will categorically do better. Microsoft is going to learn this the hard way but this is no surprise, this thing has Ballmer clusterfuck written all over it.

 

[Bsigg12]

Assuming PS4 don't run multiple apps at the same time, any app will take 100% of PS4 resources.
In XB1: the game will take only 90% from XB1 resources + battlelog (OS always take 10%)
In PS4: the battlelog will take max 10% from the resources ( actually a lot less)+ the game will take the rest (more than 90%)

Assuming the above Battlefield will benefit more from PS4 than XB1.

They will not be given 100% of the available resources on the PS4. To run party chat/video recording/access to the dash instantly, there has to be reserved resources otherwise those operations could not run. This is already proven because of the RAM debacle. Sony has to set aside resources to run their system.

 

[hokagespit]

so many people banned in this thread the hell is going on.

i hope once devs see no one is using these social features they can tell microsoft and sony to hand over the ram. I dont need to swap aps when im playing a game. I have a phone tablet and computer within arms reach that id rather do all this on.

get over it ubisoft im not going to use your uplay thing. it confuses and pisses me off

 

[JonathanPower]

The dedicated hardware you're referring to is the CPU/GPU and RAM. Both consoles have GPU/CPU cycles and RAM sequestered away for non-gaming tasks. I sincerely hope you do not think that either console has no hardware for non-gaming tasks while games are running, because that's simply not true. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative of the PS4 but it's true.

No, the dedicated hw I am referring to is the encoder chip that handles video recording.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

I want the entertainment and TV stuff, I want Kinect 2. I must be weird.

 

[b0bbyJ03]

As I understand it, the PS4 doesn't allow multiple applications to run at the same time.
Certain background applications are suspended in state and can be resumed if the player switches from the game to the app.
That setup wouldn't be ideal for a game like Battlefield that wants to integrate Battlelog into the user's game experience.

So on the PS4 they might have to include it into the game, using the game's resources while on the Xbox One they could build a companion app that could be snapped and would use the OS resources.

I think that is the idea trying to be conveyed by the example.


The whole point of giving the OS ownership of memory is so that it can deny request in the future if they add features to the OS.
It is inherently not guaranteed, and therefore is something that developers have to design around.

Of course, both platforms have more usable RAM than developers could have imagined, and that certainly won't be an issue for years. And might never be.

i dont see how battlelog would take any of the systems resources at all. battlelog will just act as a client from your phone/tablet that will communicate with the server and if u change something on the fly (like your loadout) the changes are made in the server and get pushed out to your ps4. battlelog apps will not run in the game or the OS.

the seperate VM running on the Xb1 will make the apps independent of the game running so they will literally not affect each other. the advantage there is that when u pull up an xbox menu the multitasking features will have no delay because they will not have to load into RAM

 

[Bsigg12]

I want the entertainment and TV stuff, I want Kinect 2. I must be weird.

Welp, I'm with you there.

 

[JoeyJungle]

So the thesis is "It's good that developers have access to a less total amount of RAM because in very specific cases they'll be able to access RAM that they can't usually access."

Yep, sounds great for developers.

 

[mrklaw]

I find the battlefield example hard to believe. Do we have any evidence that the windows and Xbox OS partitions can talk to each other, or is it random speculation? If you're going to write battle log for example,why would you write it as a win8 app rather than just as an extension to the game?

I like the idea of more apps, but I think partly this is MS trying to bolster their win 8 App Store too. Having said that though, a relatively open App Store model for a console could be great. Rather than rely on Sony/MS to write apps or partner specifically with companies, they could have a much larger library of apps.

I wonder if Sony will do something similar? Maybe using PSmobile, or a version of their smart TV platform or something else? Could they run android in a VM?

 

[Jadedx]

I want the entertainment and TV stuff, I want Kinect 2. I must be weird.

You're a shill that works for MS.



according to gaf.

 

[Glorified G]

And, you know, to play games...
It can do both.

Read the post again

Only reason I am getting an xbox at launch is for the apps. That fantasy sports integration sounds amazing.

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

1. Outside of Halo, probably yes. Xbox was COD box. Third party games matter more.
2. They do but they don't sell the box, the gaming features of the box sell the box. Sony learnt this the hard way.
3. No, where did I say that? Having "more features" is a pretty irrelevant metric. What matters is have features that actually appeal to consumers. The people that wanted fad Kinect already have fad kinect. See Wii. The most popular use for these consoles will be TV convergence devices not catch all twitter facebook nonsense since that shit is done better on a smartphone/tablet. Whatever gives you the games and at a better price will categorically do better. Microsoft is going to learn this the hard way but this is no surprise, this thing has Ballmer clusterfuck written all over it.

We'll it's pretty obvious we're not having a discussion here. You're just using this thread to voice some misguided emotional hatred for a plastic box.

Before I move on I would like to point out that nobody in this thread has tried to say that people are going to buying either box for apps alone. If you take the time in between bouts of rage to actually read I have said multiple times that exclusive games and services would sell these boxes, not apps.

 

[HyperV]

Source?

Again, I'll point this out: The PS3 is the most used Netflix Client.

 

[mrklaw]

I want the entertainment and TV stuff, I want Kinect 2. I must be weird.

I want the potential of the entertainment stuff, but I'd have expected MS to do more. They should have shown multiple media also installed and using kinect to voice search across them all to find something to watch.they should have announced support for certain DVRs to integrate with their list of recorded shows (already doable from iPad so interfaces exist)

It has potential but I will have to wait and see what comes of it

 

[SEGAvangelist]

so many people banned in this thread the hell is going on.

i hope once devs see no one is using these social features they can tell microsoft and sony to hand over the ram. I dont need to swap aps when im playing a game. I have a phone tablet and computer within arms reach that id rather do all this on.

get over it ubisoft im not going to use your uplay thing. it confuses and pisses me off

Yeah, this thread is a graveyard, lol. I probably won't use much of the multitasking stuff myself, but who knows what else could be coming to make me feel otherwise? At least it's forward thinking on both MS and Sony's parts.

 

[Chobel]

They will not be given 100% of the available resources on the PS4. To run party chat/video recording/access to the dash instantly, there has to be reserved resources otherwise those operations could not run. This is already proven because of the RAM debacle. Sony has to set aside resources to run their system.

OK then.
Here's more questions:
Is it true the PS4 doesn't allow multiple applications to run at the same time? doesn't PS4 allow multitasking?
Can PS4 run other apps that are not related to gaming?

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

No, the dedicated hw I am referring to is the encoder chip that handles video recording.

So, you're seriously still trying to argue that the PS4 will have 8 GB of RAM and 100% GPU/CPU available to games? I'm sorry but that's not true, and you're doing less-informed users a disservice trying to spread that narrative.

 

[Finalizer]

If I have to be honest, I'm not super excited about the idea of cluttering up my TV screen with things that aren't the game I'm playing.

Maybe that's just me, I dunno. I'm sure this will greatly benefit people without a tablet or laptop nearby tho.

I agree, I feel like the whole push for multitasking with apps on consoles is a misguided notion built out of a fear of being obsoleted by tablets/smartphones. I think there'll be a revelation that the expectations of a TV-connected device are very different from those of mobile devices, and hopefully we'll see that OS-reserved memory in both systems dialed back accordingly.

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

so many people banned in this thread the hell is going on.

i hope once devs see no one is using these social features they can tell microsoft and sony to hand over the ram. I dont need to swap aps when im playing a game. I have a phone tablet and computer within arms reach that id rather do all this on.

get over it ubisoft im not going to use your uplay thing. it confuses and pisses me off

It was going well until it turned into console wars for some people .

 

[RoboPlato]

Would this be what the PS4 "flex ram" might be used for?

I think so. Not 100% positive though. Flex RAM is a new concept to me but that's one benefit I can think of by having that segment managed by the OS.

 

[Andronicus]

3 pages? lol. this article came out saying shit people already know for what?

 

[Rekkapryde]

what a cyse....

 

[JaggedSac]

Assuming PS4 don't run multiple apps at the same time, any app will take 100% of PS4 resources.
In XB1: the game will take only 90% from XB1 resources + battlelog (OS always take 10%)
In PS4: the battlelog will take max 10% from the resources ( actually a lot less)+ the game will take the rest (more than 90%)

Assuming the above Battlefield will benefit more from PS4 than XB1.

That is not what was said. It was said that devs could access the entirety of the resources reserved for the game OS and let the app OS side handle any tertiary things such as battelog, which would use the 10% and 3gb of reserved resources. So 90% for games, 10% for things such as battelog running behind the scenes and pulled up whenever it is wanted.

I find the battlefield example hard to believe. Do we have any evidence that the windows and Xbox OS partitions can talk to each other, or is it random speculation? If you're going to write battle log for example,why would you write it as a win8 app rather than just as an extension to the game?

I like the idea of more apps, but I think partly this is MS trying to bolster their win 8 App Store too. Having said that though, a relatively open App Store model for a console could be great. Rather than rely on Sony/MS to write apps or partner specifically with companies, they could have a much larger library of apps.

I wonder if Sony will do something similar? Maybe using PSmobile, or a version of their smart TV platform or something else? Could they run android in a VM?

I too am curious to know if the two OS partitions have any sort of interface between them. That could be cool. As for Battlelog, that was a MS dev saying that stuff wasn't it? He wouldn't speculate on such things I would not think.

 

[Cornbread78]

wait, didn't Cerny already confirm PS4 can multitask multiple apps just like XBone??

 

[Darklor01]

I think so. Not 100% positive though. Flex RAM is a new concept to me but that's one benefit I can think of by having that segment managed by the OS.

I accidentally veered into PS4 land there. More on topic, I think it's good they tried to explain the need for the split. I think there is real potential or good things with it.

I think I better not comment on the RAM stuff anymore. It seems that topic just causes instant fallout.

 

[idrinkalone]

You're paying $500 (and xbox live to access all the apps) to watch ESPN with an overlay?

Yup. I love fantasy sports. I will play forza and KI, but besides that there's no exclusives that interest me. If it didn't have all the extra tv stuff I would wait till halo or crackdown to get an xbox.

 

[LeeFowler.CU]

I find the battlefield example hard to believe. Do we have any evidence that the windows and Xbox OS partitions can talk to each other, or is it random speculation? If you're going to write battle log for example,why would you write it as a win8 app rather than just as an extension to the game?

Isn't that what the Hypervisor is for? So the App partition OS and the Game partition OS can talk to each other and exchange data i.e. Battlelog in snap mode being updated in response to what's happening in the game.