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[Polari]

Women aren't obligated to talk about men's issues and certainly don't have to stop talking about their issues. What they do need to do is listen to men's lived experiences and not hand-wave (gaslighting) away any complaints/problems just because they're men or instantly label them as MRAs, "Nice Guys", or neckbeards if they don't conform to their belief system. In addition, there is such a thing as female privilege and it should be talked about by women because the dominant (almost only) narrative we hear is about male privilege and it's a toxic environment for both.

Sensible post this.

 

[blame space]

didn't get struck by lightning today? Check your privilege, women.

 

[cbox]

Is there a female checklist also?

 

[Shabutaro]

I see where you're coming from, but the bottom line is when arguing about gender differences the starting point really should be the facts, not what some people feel.
After these facts are agreed upon, then we can start looking at individual causes, be they emotional or social or whatever. This is true just as much for women as it is for men.

As a man who isn't naturally aware of what it feels like to be a female in society, I rely on factual evidence to tell me there is a problem with gender equality. Studies can show this empirically by looking at employment rates, salaries, etc.
In this sense the OP was somewhat sarcastic because the examples he chose to include where closer to anecdotal evidence than empirical ones, which is perhaps why some of the discussion in this thread started off on the wrong foot.

With that said, if we do start with the empirical evidence rather than anecdotal, it's true there is a major gap between men and women at the top end of many (probably even most) fields. This in itself is legitimate cause for concern.

But just like any other empirical claim, there is room for criticism, and the prevalent criticism against the claim that men occupy top positions in society due to unfair or unnatural intervention is well known to be that it is based on a sample of society that is not entirely representative of the whole.
This is why I said earlier that I'm eager to see a more extensive study, in order to get the complete picture. Personally, I believe this complete picture won't reveal how one gender is superior to another, but instead demonstrate how innate differences in how we perceive, communicate and learn need to be taken into account in order for both genders to excel and reach their full potential.

In case you're interested, my guiding intuition based on previous knowledge, is that at the end of the day, as smart as we humans think we are in many areas, nature is still smarter than us when it comes to life, which shouldn't be all that surprising as it has had billions of years of trial and error whereas we've only been thinking about this stuff for a few short thousand years. And the idea of certain genetic traits being distributed among men differently than the way they are distributed among women seems to not only fit with what we see around us, it also seems to be a better construct than the alternative, when it comes to ensuring long term survival of the species.

I can agree with your logic as well. It is hard for alot of us to understand what it's like to
Be a woman in our society. And I see what you're saying about the new for empirical evidence. I'm sure that there are statistics that correlate with these claims. With questions posed like,"how often have you felt discriminated againt" and things in that nature. However the problem is that that's still not as absolute as statistics about pay wages or hiring and whatnot. However, I think that when we step into te realm of social issues to have to listen to to personal experience because there isn't really a way to Create a numerical value for this kind of abuse. We know African Americans as whole face alot of stereotyping issues, but I can't think of a way to quantify that and create some sort of viable statistic for it, although we know that it is in fact an issue.

I do believe that the genders are different, however until we reach a place of more appropriate social equality in the education process and simpy culturally it'll be hard to do a study. For example society has always believed that men were inherently better at math, and many evolutionary theries have been tossed around for this, however recently this mathematical gap has begun to close. Another one is ambition, men have traditionally and statistically had more "drive" so to speak, but as our culture changes and as women are encouraged to propel themselves as their careers more we may see a change in this area. Our evolutionary advantages and differences on some aspects have been potentially clouded culture in my opinion.

 

[Mesoian]

http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

Fuck you 44, I get that all the time. People don't want to deal with me when I'm on my new york shit.

 

[Keri]

Sensible post this.

This whole thread is you attempting to gaslight women and hand-wave away their issues. You specifically started this thread because you wanted to discuss male issues/female privilege, but for some reason you thought the best way of doing that was to frame the conversation by, first, discrediting women's issues.

I'm surprised to see you recognizing the sensibility in cubicle's post.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

So is there a stand up to pee privilege?

 

[Envelope]

Agreed. Every thread about women's issues is derailed by male posters "hand-waiving (gaslighting) away women's lived experiences and complaints/problems just because they're women." Let's all stop doing it.

And in every thread for men's issues, the reverse happens~

basically people need to stop trying to yell over each other and listen to one another for a change

 

[Mesoian]

The "funny" thing about this list is that if we take these 46 lines as gospel, iron clad things that are just true, then nothing will ever change because if they are true 100%, there is no wiggle room to change. The mere notion of trying to celebrate women and build them up would be seen as male privilege, or if not, it would be a damsel trope.

So that being said, this list is fucking stupid and anyone who thinks that the world is that black and white is deluding themselves.

 

[marrec]

So is there a stand up to pee privilege?

Have you been in a porta-potty?

 

[Polari]

This whole thread is you attempting to gaslight women and hand-wave away their issues. You specifically started this thread because you wanted to discuss male issues/female privilege, but for some reason you thought the best way of doing that was to frame the conversation by, first, discrediting women's issues.

I'm surprised to see you recognizing the sensibility in cubicle's post.

Perhaps you shouldn't put words in my mouth? Pointing out that a dumb list is dumb is hardly discrediting women's issues. I've studied feminism at a Master's level and am good friends with one of leading academics in the field. I greatly admire her work. What I don't admire is pop feminist garbage like this. For you to twist that into claiming I'm "discrediting women's issues" is pretty offensive.

 

[kaioshade]

a lot of those are complete nonsense. i would almost think this is a joke list.

 

[cheststrongwell]

That clothing one is complete bullshit. I've stood around in women's clothing stores enough to know they get a hell of a deal. $3 summer dresses all up in this bitch.

It is pretty sweet being a white, straight male though.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

nm

 

[The Albatross]

Is there a female checklist also?

The female checklist is "you have an excuse that is this male checklist for everything that goes wrong in your hour/day/year/life."

 

[Moon Boots]

I've read that in most white-collar, non-manual labor career paths, the pay gap between men and women is not nearly as steep and that, short of the upper positions of management (which, while occupied by men, are not attainable by most men, either), women have greater upward mobility within the more limited career path that is realistic for most individuals, regardless of gender.

I'd say that, in general, while sexism negatively affects women more than men, women's issues also have a pretty good visibility in the modern consciousness - far more than racial issues, for example, which many white people have a tendency to flat out deny. This makes sense - most are around women, while only some are around minorities for any substantial period of time. While I find MRAs pretty silly, I think they are generally spurred by many feminists' dismissals of men's issues as illegitimate, or simply another product of patriarchy (which has become such a catch-all term as to be basically useless), as well as the fact that such issues simply do not capture public attention in the same way.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Have you been in a porta-potty?

I avoid them at all cost, but I have had to drop deuce in them a few times so I get it to a certain degree.

 

[Keri]

Perhaps you shouldn't put words in my mouth? Pointing out that a dumb list is dumb is hardly discrediting women's issues. I've studied feminism at a Master's level and am good friends with one of leading academics in the field. I greatly admire her work. What I don't admire is pop feminist garbage like this. For you to twist that into claiming I'm "discrediting women's issues" is pretty offensive.

Your OP was only a list of male privileges you thought were ridiculous and your second post, was a list of "female privileges." If you don't want it to look like you're trying to discredit feminists topics, as a starting point for discussing men's issues...then post better?

Men's issues deserve attention, but they seem to only ever be framed as anti women's issues. You deliberately chose to frame this thread, in exactly this way. So you are part of the problem.

 

[Shabutaro]

Sorry, I should have worded that better. I assumed that listening was a given when it came to having a dialog.

There definitely has to be a conversation, and everyone should feel welcome and safe to express their concerns, and part of that welcoming/safe space should include for people to be attentively listened to, and have their concerns addressed.

I think since the OP added mens issues into the mix that they should also be discussed here, but I do think there is a bit of dishonesty in the form of the title and original post.

tl;dr - Everyone needs to speak and listen, not over each other, but with mutual respect.

Terrible excuse for bad original post and this terrible post as well: I'm battling a cold at the moment so you will have to (ought to/it would be kind if you would) forgive me.

I entirely agree that issues need to be open and discussed. I just don't think that another group has to bring up its issues and complaints when another group is discussing theirs. At times yes, it's an excellent addition to the conversation, but alot of the time it used to wave away te other groups problems. Be it women talking or men, alot of te time people use their own groups issues to diminish the others. It's not productive. So this could have been an interesting discussion about men's and women's issues in society had the title and op made it that way but im pretty sure the intention was simply to highlight how ludicrous he/she thought this list was.

I realize toure intentions though, and i have to say a world of open and healthy discussion would be best. and I feel for your cold though. Hope you get we'll!

 

[Polari]

Your OP was only a list of male privileges you thought were ridiculous and your second post, was a list of "female privileges." If you don't want it to look like you're trying to discredit feminists topics, as a starting point for discussing men's issues...then post better?

If you can't see how highlighting the stupidity of this list isn't "attempting to gaslight women and hand-wave away their issues", then god help you.

 

[Gotchaye]

If you can't see how highlighting the stupidity of this list isn't "attempting to gaslight women and hand-wave away their issues", then god help you.

To be fair, your OP just quoted three items from the list without explanation, and your next contribution to the thread was an attempt to start talking about female privilege.

There's stuff to talk about relating to these issues, but this thread either got derailed very early on or it was actually never about the thing it purported to be about.

 

[Mumei]

Drop the off-topic discussion, please.

If you would prefer to talk about ways that men are disadvantaged, or ways in which women are better off than men, feel free to find another topic. If it helps, I already made a topic a few weeks ago about a Kickstarter documentary that planned on looking some of those issues that have been brought up here, and possible ways to address them. Feel free to bump it.

This topic is about the list. Feel free to discuss individual items on the list, whether it applies to you, whether they might be true in the U.S. but not where you live, whether you think it represents something that was once true but is now outdated; whatever. But please drop the derail about "female privilege" / men actually have it worse.

Edit: Looks like we got our wires a bit crossed. Well, the invitation to bump my thread is still valid. I actually think those issues are worth discussing, but not in this topic and not in this manner.