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[cyberheater]

I don't understand. Do you want me to calculate the sum of bandwidth of all buses??

I'll save you the bother. It doesn't matter how many pipes and busses are going to that memory. The memory has a finite throughput of 176 GB/sec. If the GPU and CPU are accessing that memory at the same time then they have to share the memory bandwidth. There is no other way.

And where is the eSRAM getting its data?

Hint: not magic

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

 

[FairXchange]

Going by Carmack's word, I don't know what the hell sony execs were thinking about. Spending millions on a better, more customized GPU than the one on the competitor´s console, with 8 more CUs and 16 more ROPs, invest in better and faster RAM only to get parity in performance. They should get sacked, I tell ya, for Carmack has spoken.

I'm sorry but this debate is ridiculous, both consoles are using components from the same manufacturer, they're totally comparable. It's like debating what's beter: 2 apples or 3 apples for the same price?

Console wars be damned, this is simple math.

You believe saying "they're close" ends the debate on power, when Carmack himself said he hasn't actually benchmarked them? I believe Carmack is looking at the fact that they have x86 architecture, 8GB RAM and a standard HDD in his assessment that "they're close". He has stated he hasn't benchmarked, which is precisely what we are debating about right now.

 

[TheD]

Yes I understand that. But it could be useful for stuff like anti aliasing and post processing etc...

I'll save you the bother. It doesn't matter how many pipes and busses are going to that memory. The memory has a finite throughput of 176 GB/sec. If the GPU and CPU are accessing that memory at the same time then they have to share the memory bandwidth. There is no other way.

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

What part of the XB1 GPU having to also load graphical assets from main RAM (and thus have the same "issues" that the PS4 has) do you not understand?

 

[thuway]

You believe saying "they're close" ends the debate on power, when Carmack himself said he hasn't actually benchmarked them? I believe Carmack is looking at the fact that they have x86 architecture, 8GB RAM and a standard HDD in his assessment that "they're close". He has stated he hasn't benchmarked, which is precisely what we are debating about right now.

Bingo bango.

 

[Chobel]

I'll save you the bother. It doesn't matter how many pipes and busses are going to that memory. The memory has a finite throughput of 176 GB/sec. If the GPU and CPU are accessing that memory at the same time then they have to share the memory bandwidth. There is no other way.

I understand that, but GPU and CPU can share their caches.

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

WTF?! but GPU need that data from somewhere. hint: from DDR3 memory.

 

[cyberheater]

Universal facts folks need to accept:

1. PS4 is more powerful. The "edge" in performance will not be apparent at launch, nor will it be grandiose in third party titles. Give PS4 a year or two, and than it will become more obvious. The vast majority of the general public will be completely unphased since the difference between true 1080p, a modified 1080p, and MSAA versus MLAA will go straight over their heads.

2. It will take time before the PS4 is truly tapped. Some very interesting hardware customizations will give it longer legs than the Xbox 1 in terms of pulling off late gen magic tricks.

3. Xbone Fans: Your games will look fine, but stop parroting this narrative where Xbox 1 is equal in performance to PS4! It isn't, it won't be, it's not going to happen. There is not going to be a Venus XT 8990 with 12 GB RAM. Microsoft does not give two fucks about performance gaps as long as the port is a facsimile. .

Sorry I missed this post. I agree with this.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

I just hope the PS4 games can look as good as The Last of Us.

 

[i-Lo]

I guess people missed my post completely above. What are we arguing about? What is the definition of "Very close" performance? What are Carmack's credentials / agendas? Is it propaganda that PS4 is more powerful than Xbox 1?

At the end of the day, (and this is coming from someone who holds him in the highest possible regard) id is now under Bethesda and while Carmack can talk in detail about the intricacies of each console's architecture (which he said he hasn't) he will not draw any conclusion that would be detrimental to both short and long term reputation and economic interest of Bethesda.

 

[Whiteshirt]

What part of the XB1 GPU having to also load graphical assets from main RAM (and thus have the same "issues" that the PS4 has?) do you not understand?

He thinks the XBox One will just let the GPU get all of its bandwidth by dumping everything into the embedded memory and bypassing the DDR3. If that was the case, there would not be a need for 8GB of 2133mhz DDR3 but hey here we are.

 

[thuway]

At the end of the day, (and this is coming from someone who treats him in the highest possible regard) id is now under Bethesda and while Carmack can talk in detail about the intricacies of each console's architecture (which he said he hasn't) he will not draw any conclusion that would be detrimental to both short and long term reputation and economic interest of Bethesda.

His self interest is to create games that run equally on all forms of hardware on a basic performance level. For example, RAGE on PC performs stupidly close to the 360 / PS3 version. It is a crying shame, but I am not going to knock his pedigree.

Carmack's intention when designing a game is not to take specific advantages of a machine, but to match performance in a real world setting. He is the perfect example of a man looking to equalize the playing field, nothing wrong with it, but it won't show off any hardware quirks.

 

[anexanhume]

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

And where does it go?

 

[cyberheater]

I understand that, but GPU and CPU can share their caches.

Yes but these are CPU caches which tend to be very small and the bandwidth of the pipe is quite low. We don't even know if it's bi-directional.

 

[sunnz]

I just hope the PS4 games can look as good as The Last of Us.

In terms of attention to detail, which TLOU exceeds in, I really think only ND themselves can top that and hardly any game within the first year or two will top it. That type of detail isn't based much on power, it's more so based on the quality of the developers.

 

[Joeki11a]

This guy made Rage, aside from the weird pop in the game look great on dusty ass ps3

 

[Chobel]

I just hope the PS4 games can look as good as The Last of Us.

You better hope that PS4 games look better, way better than TLoU. Even PS3 can run TLoU .

 

[cyberheater]

And where does it go?

Back to the GPU. Which would be handy for AA, blending and post processing effects

 

[Ateron]

You believe saying "they're close" ends the debate on power, when Carmack himself said he hasn't actually benchmarked them? I believe Carmack is looking at the fact that they have x86 architecture, 8GB RAM and a standard HDD in his assessment that "they're close". He has stated he hasn't benchmarked, which is precisely what we are debating about right now.

I got that part and I agree, but it´s disengenuous on his part. If he hasn't yet benchmarked them, how can he say it like that? Saying it without explaining it like you did would of course trigger a mixed response. It's like comparing a Volvo with a Bmw, they're both cars, both have an engine, steering wheel and 4 tires. They're both capable of reaching 100 mph. The bmw will probably run faster, but who cares? They're close.

Again, this is not to fuel any kind of console war bullshit, in my eyes is simple math and it annoys me a little when somebody, even someone as knowledgeable as Carmack, glosses over it. The bump in performance might not be sky high, but it will be present. So, in my eyes, they are not the same-same.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Regardless of how you define "very close," I think it's obvious the PS4 will have the best version of all multiplat games, so if you want the better game graphically speaking, you would have to pick up the PS4 version, barring a case where a game is 100% identical for some reason. Could be a difference of a few frames, better anti-aliasing, better shadowing, more foliage, pedestrians, less pop-in, missing vs. added effects or a combination of things. It could even be a bit more significant, we don't know yet. But the truth is, the PS4 is objectively more powerful, there's no debate.

Personally, being a multi-console owner and having a capable PC, I refuse to get the version of a game that's inferior, even if it's a difference of 2-3 frames per second. For other people, it might not matter at all, or they simply won't realize it since they aren't comparing the games on both consoles side-by-side.

 

[cyberheater]

You better hope that PS4 games look better, way better than TLoU. Even PS3 can run TLoU .

Even if you didn't touch the code. Can you imagine that game with high resolution textures running at 1080p with good quality AA. It would look stunning.

 

[Mastperf]

Carmack is great and absolutely should be listened to. The problem with this whole argument is he said that A) The specs are close, but we already know the specs and so he hasn't given any new info, and B) He hasn't ran benchmarks and is unable to/not allowed to give specifics.
We really haven't learned anything new.

 

[Truespeed]

Wait what?

Its the 360 and PS3 that are vastly different architectures.

Not the One and PS4.

With the exception of asymmetrical cores, they're both PowerPC based cores.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

In terms of attention to detail, which TLOU exceeds in, I really think only ND themselves can top that and hardly any game within the first year or two will top it. That type of detail isn't based much on power, it's more so based on the quality of the developers.

It is the attention to detail but also how the game looks. It is beautiful to look at.

 

[cyberheater]

I got that part and I agree, but it´s disengenuous on his part. If he hasn't yet benchmarked them, how can he say it like that? Saying it without explaining it like you did would of course trigger a mixed response. It's like comparing a Volvo with a Bmw, they're both cars, both have an engine, steering wheel and 4 tires. They're both capable of reaching 100 mph. The bmw will probably run faster, but who cares? They're close.

Again, this is not to fuel any kind of console war bullshit, in my eyes is simple math and it annoys me a little when somebody, even someone as knowledgeable as Carmack, glosses over it. The bump in performance might not be sky high, but it will be present. So, in my eyes, they are not the same-same.

His dev team have both dev kits and he has run code thru both machines. He's obviously run enough code to reach a conclusion he feels safe with.

 

[IN&OUT]

This guy made Rage, aside from the weird pop in the game look great on dusty ass ps3

I can list tons of games that looked better than RAGE on PS3. what's your point?

Carmack is legendary dev no doubt, but RAGE isn't the best example to show his strengths.

 

[jonscrambler]

You believe saying "they're close" ends the debate on power, when Carmack himself said he hasn't actually benchmarked them? I believe Carmack is looking at the fact that they have x86 architecture, 8GB RAM and a standard HDD in his assessment that "they're close". He has stated he hasn't benchmarked, which is precisely what we are debating about right now.

You are seriously claiming Carmack doesn't know the specs of next gen consoles?

To run meaningful benchmarks you'll need finished engines on both platforms, who has done that?

 

[Biker19]

Universal facts folks need to accept:

1. PS4 is more powerful. The "edge" in performance will not be apparent at launch, nor will it be grandiose in third party titles. Give PS4 a year or two, and than it will become more obvious. The vast majority of the general public will be completely unphased since the difference between true 1080p, a modified 1080p, and MSAA versus MLAA will go straight over their heads.

2. It will take time before the PS4 is truly tapped. Some very interesting hardware customizations will give it longer legs than the Xbox 1 in terms of pulling off late gen magic tricks.

3. Xbone Fans: Your games will look fine, but stop parroting this narrative where Xbox 1 is equal in performance to PS4! It isn't, it won't be, it's not going to happen. There is not going to be a Venus XT 8990 with 12 GB RAM. Microsoft does not give two fucks about performance gaps as long as the port is a facsimile.

This post is what everyone on this thread needs to read.

 

[Chobel]

Even if you didn't touch the code. Can you imagine that game with high resolution textures running at 1080p with good quality AA. It would look stunning.

Too bad It only came to PS3, not that it's bad but like you said it will look way better in 1080p.

Yes but these are CPU caches which tend to be very small and the bandwidth of the pipe is quite low. We don't even know if it's bi-directional.

They can also share GPU cache, but because those cache tends to be small and because I have no idea what is the real world performance of thoses buses, I'll stop arguing here. BTW what the fuck is GPU cache? first time I heard of it.

 

[prwxv3]

Why is it that hard to admit ps4 is more powerful for some folks? It's not like its means ps4 will automatically sell the most or anything. The mental gymnastics going on to make it seem the xbone is equal to ps4 strength wise is pathetic.

 

[Truespeed]

I can list tons of games that looked better than RAGE on PS3. what's your point?

Carmack is legendary dev no doubt, but RAGE isn't the best example to show his strengths.

I have my doubts about id tech 5 and the megatexture tech it's based upon. He seems content to stick with it for id tech 6. Good thing both consoles use Blu-ray so they can fill up the disc this time around.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Its nice to heart that the consoles aren't going to be so vastly different from each other. When I see people get into RAM fights online, it just never makes sense to me. We've been spoiled with both consoles having 8GB of RAM each (regardless of how much is allocated where) that we seem to forget that games like The Last of Us, Halo 4, Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim, etc. all ran on 512MB of RAM... 512!!! Games are going to look amazing on BOTH consoles. Hell...even the Wii U with 2 is a huge step up from this gen.

And how many of them kept 30fps? None

 

[MoneyHats]

"Of course he's going to say that - he's wants to put out games on both consoles" etc etc

I see you're quoting, but yea, anyone who doesn't know Carmack may say that lol

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I can list tons of games that looked better than RAGE on PS3. what's your point?

Carmack is legendary dev no doubt, but RAGE isn't the best example to show his strengths.

His studio doesn't even make the best-looking games anymore and he didn't really give a real answer worth two shits, what use is he really?

 

[TheD]

With the exception of asymmetrical cores, they're both PowerPC based cores.

That is a very large exception, only a small amount of the PS3's power is in that one PPC core in the Cell.

 

[mylasthope]

Why is it that hard to admit ps4 is more powerful for some folks? It's not like its means ps4 will automatically sell the most or anything. The mental gymnastics going on to make it seem the xbone is equal to ps4 strength wise is pathetic.

Simple. They need to justify their Xbox One purchases. They will do whatever it takes to say the Xbox One is at least equal, if not better, than the PS4 despite the obvious hardware differences.

 

[prwxv3]

Simple. They need to justify their Xbox One purchases. They will do whatever it takes to say the Xbox One is at least equal, if not better, than the PS4 despite the obvious hardware differences.

It's still fucking stupid. Xbone games will still look great. And we won't even see much differences at launch anyway. The differences will probably be apparent as time goes on though.

 

[patchday]

I'd like to see graphs that compares the two next gen consoles. Granted, I don't really care much. In the end, I'll buy both I'm sure. Just going with PS4 for now since I'm a big fan of the Sony 1st party studios. But will get the Xbone later for sho' once it gets more titles, etc (or if Forza 5 announces support for Forza 4 steering wheels)

But Carmack making guesses doesnt mean anything too me. Show me hard data yo. He's not saying nothing new

 

[Whipped Spartan]

This conversation sucks go watch the whole video. The world needs more Carmack's. It's basically a state of the gaming industry. His points about 30 v 60 hz and hardware was so fun to listen to. He touches on everything gaming.

 

[Jabba]

Id trust carmacks word over any this guy knows his shit and another thing people still dont take into account is that we still dont have locked in specs for the xbone....everything is based off devkits/special sources...it could turn out to be a completely different gpu than what everyone is assuming. ..if that's the case the power difference will be null.

Don't assume the gpu would be better than the current one in X1, if it turns out to be different. Variables work in a number ways. If different, the gpu in X1 could possibly be weaker than the current one also, thus making any real world PS4 power difference wider. Or it could be even better than what you may/may not be hoping for, thus making X1 more powerful.

Right now, PS4 looks more powerful than X1 on paper. How much the paper differences translate to realword game environment remains to be seen.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I have my doubts about id tech 5 and the megatexture tech it's based upon. He seems content to stick with it for id tech 6. Good thing both consoles use Blu-ray so they can fill up the disc this time around.

Why use megatexture when the GPU hardware can already do this?

 

[MoneyHats]

I can list tons of games that looked better than RAGE on PS3. what's your point?

Carmack is legendary dev no doubt, but RAGE isn't the best example to show his strengths.

Have you seen Rage running on an iPhone 3GS? Yep, legendary no doubt.

 

[Fafalada]

I fully expect to see multiplatform games on both systems to be virtually identical.

While that may be objectively true, gaming forums have always obsessed over amplifying discussion around the most minute differences, and PS3/360 generation distilled that almost to a science with advent of Frame and Pixel counting.

On the plus side - this at least helped eliminate some of the, less objective discussion points that plagued older generations though.

 

[Wynnebeck]

His studio doesn't even make the best-looking games anymore and he didn't really give a real answer worth two shits, what use is he really?

I really hope this is a joke post.

 

[Garrett 2U]

Simple. They need to justify their Xbox One purchases. They will do whatever it takes to say the Xbox One is at least equal, if not better, than the PS4 despite the obvious hardware differences.

You know, there are people that buy consoles based on the software offerings rather than the hardware specs.

And I don't really think anyone is trying to say the Xbox One is equal or more powerful than the PS4. Just similar.

 

[mentalfloss]

Did Carmack just say that Vita/Wii U are a hard sell because people are satisfied with existing hardware?

Because I'm pretty sure that's what he said.

And I'm also quite certain he mentioned this would be causing some trepidation with MS/Sony about PS4/Xbone.

Hm..

Now, I'm not really an industry pundit or anything here.. but when one of the most famous and respected developers comes out to point out the glaringly obvious.. well it's a bit beyond comprehension why most people (including those that post on Neogaf) would be so blindly bullish on next gen consoles.

Gotta believe I guess.

 

[GrizzledGrump]

Nice Safe observation by Carmack there. Being Politically Correct is he? Well at least he tells it like it is about Kinect. The joke is that not many 3rd party developers seem to talk about, or show any excitement for.

So he's being politically correct about the performance difference but tells it like it is when it comes to Kinect?

How convenient for someone who believes in a noticeable performance gap between the consoles.

 

[jonscrambler]

Simple. They need to justify their Xbox One purchases. They will do whatever it takes to say the Xbox One is at least equal, if not better, than the PS4 despite the obvious hardware differences.

I don't see anyone actually arguing PS4 is not more powerful on paper, it's what real world differences we would really see , which is exactly what Carmack is saying. I fully expect little difference in multi platform games, PS4 may get slightly better AA or textures or frame rate but unless you run a benchmark or put them side by side, there's little difference.

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

I don't mind this. I didn't really enjoy the fact that most MP games were significantly worse than PS3 exclusives.

 

[Gumbie]

No. He clearly has both dev kits. He admits that he's not done vigorous benchmarking which from Carmacks point of view is going to be a deep dive but from what he's done on them so far. The performance is very close.

That's more then good enough for me. I'll take his real world experience of the respective dev kits backed up by his amazing background and knowledge over some internet fanboys reading leaked specs and declaring a winner.

Nailed it.

 

[GrizzledGrump]

Tools?

Isn't Xbox One 6 months behind though? So PS4 should always be ahead. Easier to develop for. More mature tools. So we should see a noticeable gap right away and throughout the gen.

 

[Barzul]

No. He clearly has both dev kits. He admits that he's not done vigorous benchmarking which from Carmacks point of view is going to be a deep dive but from what he's done on them so far. The performance is very close.

That's more then good enough for me. I'll take his real world experience of the respective dev kits backed up by his amazing background and knowledge over some internet fanboys reading leaked specs and declaring a winner.

This. No one is arguing that the PS4 has superior specs. I've only ever argued how obvious those differences will be even 2-3 years down the line. My suspicions especially going off the words of actual developers, that the real world difference will not be as big as some people think.