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[Satchel]

Don't take me the wrong way, I just think he's not as relevant as he's been in the past. Not in my eyes. That includes his opinions of HW in it's infancy.

But his relevance in the industry doesn't negate his intelligence and knowledge on hardware and architecture surely.

It was a mess on consoles. The texture pop-in was atrocious.

Did you read my post? I own the worst culprit version of the game. It still looked and ran amazingly despite this. Even more amazing on PS3 given no option for full install and the slow ass bluray drive.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The difference between 30 fps and 45 fps is "very close", doesn't mean that the difference aren't exploitable.

 

[Takuya]

Isn't Xbox One 6 months behind though? So PS4 should always be ahead. Easier to develop for. More mature tools. So we should see a noticeable gap right away and throughout the gen.

Your first set of tools in any given generation are always pretty primitive.

 

[AgentP]

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

?

GPUs don't hold data. I think what you mean is the GPU can read-process-write data that is already on the the eSRAM. Getting any data to the eSRAM means transferring it from the DDR3. Since 32MB is 0.04% of the 8GB it will be moving data on and off the eSRAM continuously. I ultimately think this is the achellis heel of the system.

 

[funkystudent]

So... should someone just make a Carmack keynote thread so we can talk about his talk without all the console war stuff?

 

[Takuya]

The eSRAM can get it's data directly from the GPU. It doesn't need to use the DDR3 memory bus.

lol! This post! So many laughs.

 

[stryke]

So... should someone just make a Carmack keynote thread so we can talk about his talk without all the console war stuff?

There's a quakecon thread that hasn't seen any action since this came up lol

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=641547

 

[Whipped Spartan]

So... should someone just make a Carmack keynote thread so we can talk about his talk without all the console war stuff?

Probably. It's 3 hours of awesome discussion on state of everything. Great listening. He even discusses the power of the cloud!

 

[DMczaf]

He summed up Kinect thusly: Saying that he's given Apple grief for its one-button mouse, Carmack describes Kinect as "kind of like a zero-button mouse with a lot of latency on it."

The way of the future.

The way of the future.

The way of the future.

The way of the future.

 

[Rat Salad]

The difference between 30 fps and 45 fps is "very close", doesn't mean that the difference aren't exploitable.

Maybe you'd be better off buying a PC if you love beating your chest over specs. Every year or so there's a nice little boost in power. Go for it!

 

[Tom Penny]

Caramack is biased. Worst than Digital Foundry.

 

[IN&OUT]

Have you seen Rage running on an iPhone 3GS? Yep, legendary no doubt.

Yeah, and that tells me that RAGE PS3/X360 should have been something worthy of Carmack name, something out of this world. but sadly, for strange reasons it wasn't.

 

[Takuya]

Maybe you'd be better off buying a PC if you love beating your chest over specs. Every year or so there's a nice little boost in power. Go for it!

Some people do have powerful machines but still aren't blind and can see the clear hardware advantage.

 

[RedSwirl]

I don't see why GAF is so up in arms about the consoles being incredibly similar in terms of hardware. I really don't think the difference is gonna be that pronounced in multiplatform games at all. Whatever differences exist will probably be slight, definitely not enough for a difference in framerate between versions. One version might have a slightly smoother framerate than the other, but I definitely don't think it's gonna be the difference between 30fps and 60fps.

Then again, I regularly see GAF splitting hairs over one version of a game having slightly more torn frames or a different Anti-Aliasing implementation than the other. At that point it's indistinguishable to 90 percent of end users. The remaining 10 percent should probably just be playing games on PC if they care that much about IQ.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Maybe you'd be better off buying a PC if you love beating your chest over specs. Every year or so there's a nice little boost in power. Go for it!

I'm not a PC gamer.

But when given two options of consoles that have similar specs, it's a no brainer to go with the one that's more powerful and cheaper to boot.

 

[Maximilian E.]

SO let met get this straight..

People are upset because Carmack says that the machines are very close even though he has not been able to benchmark anything.

And at the same time, he says that Kinect has lots of latency, is he talking about Kinect1? If he is, then that is correct.

How likely is it that he has tested Kinect2? He already admitted that he has not been able to benchmark anything, isnt it possible that The Carkmackster has not been able to test Kinect2 yet? MOst likely, it is exactly like this..

 

[Whipped Spartan]

I don't see why GAF is so up in arms about the consoles being incredibly similar in terms of hardware. I really don't think the difference is gonna be that pronounced in multiplatform games at all. Whatever differences exist will probably be slight, definitely not enough for a difference in framerate between versions. One version might have a slightly smoother framerate than the other, but I definitely don't think it's gonna be the difference between 30fps and 60fps.

Then again, I regularly see GAF splitting hairs over one version of a game having slightly more torn frames or a different Anti-Aliasing implementation than the other. At that point it's indistinguishable to 90 percent of end users. The remaining 10 percent should probably just be playing games on PC if they care that much about IQ.

It's a dumb conversation for people who are projecting insecurities. If they truly cared they would spend the money on a good gaming rig. Also no one watched this video at all. It was very insightful and frank conversation from Carmack. Hard to call him biased if you watched it.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Have you heard the word of Saint Garlic and Onion pipelines being designed to avoid such disharmonising contention?

The thing is people always bring those up, and they are very helpful, I'm sure, but they don't entirely solve the problem they were designed to address, as in I'm certain they don't suddenly make the issue they were designed to address a total non-issue for the system. However, many people always seem to talk in a way as if they really believe that's what the garlic and onion buses accomplish. They help. Nobody is questioning that, but they aren't magic. They're no more magic than the Xbox One's move engines, ESRAM, audio block, and whatever other aspect of the Xbox One that people like to dismiss or mock. .

What I feel people essentially do is they hear someone mention one specific aspect regarding one of the two machines, and then they find where that same word or something close enough to it is mentioned in relation to the other console, and then act as if that singular mention on the other system completely nullifies any and all mentions along the same lines on the other system. It's not necessarily like you're entirely wrong with what you're saying, but I thought this needed to be said.

 

[Truespeed]

That is a very large exception, only a small amount of the PS3's power is in that one PPC core in the Cell.

Um, no. The Cell is a PowerPC based architecture.

 

[NIGHT-]

It's gonna be another fun gen where console fanboys try to nit pick at each other deciding which version of a multi platform game is better. While PC gamers sit back and laugh, knowing they're playing the version everyone should be, if you want the best and full experience! Bring on the new gen

 

[Satchel]

SO let met get this straight..

People are upset because Carmack says that the machines are very close even though he has not been able to benchmark anything.

And at the same time, he says that Kinect has lots of latency, is he talking about Kinect1? If he is, then that is correct.

How likely is it that he has tested Kinect2? He already admitted that he has not been able to benchmark anything, isnt it possible that The Carkmackster has not been able to test Kinect2 yet? MOst likely, it is exactly like this..

Yeah I've seen the double standards apply across multiple threads, but this is a first in the same thread.

 

[spisho]

Um, no. The Cell is a PowerPC based architecture.

I'm not sure what you're driving at but on the cell processor only 1 out of 8 CPU cores is PowerPC.

Final Fantasy is a multiplat and the only graphical difference is that the PS3 version has higher bitrate cutscenes due to more storage space. Real time in-engine stuff (not the cutscenes that are in engine but rendered out as low bitrate video files) is identical.

The PS3 version ran at a higher resolution and framerate. FFXIII-2 is pretty much identical on both with a small framerate advantage for the PS3.

 

[ShogunX]

It's gonna be another fun gen where console fanboys try to nit pick at each other deciding which version of a multi platform game is better. While PC gamers sit back and laugh, knowing they're playing the version everyone should be, if you want the best and full experience! Bring on the new gen

Which version of GTAV is that?

 

[thuway]

It's a dumb conversation for people who are projecting insecurities. If they truly cared they would spend the money on a good gaming rig. Also no one watched this video at all. It was very insightful and frank conversation from Carmack. Hard to call him biased if you watched it.

This is such a bullshit argument. If you are labeling the concerns of console gamers as "insecurities" and "dumb conversations", than you have missed the point completely.

This debate whether or not the PS4 will have a performance edge is relevant to the here and now. What IS bullshit is making light of a situation that will impact an entire generation.

We lived an entire generation where the minutia of visual enhancements were microscopically analyzed and flaunted. In an era where 360 and PS3 performance differences were subacute; we've seen port differences the likes of Red Dead Redemption, Bayonetta, Call of Duty Black Ops, Final Fantasy XIII, Ghostbusters etc. etc. etc. etc.


SHOCKING NEWS- on paper, the difference in performance between PS4/X1 is larger than 360/PS3. The biggest difference this time is similar architecture.

Whether PC gamer's like to believe it or not, console development sets an ambition for visual fidelity. Many people, including me (who owns a PC rig), don't care for the complexity, the small community, or the technical nags of PC gaming. I understand it's appeal, but let's be serious here, is it wrong for people to want console performance to be as high as possible? PC gamer's love to shit on the plebians with the $399 machine, but they have yet to understand there bloated and underutilized hardware indirectly benefits from these "1.8 TF last gen middling GPUs".


(Drops mic)

 

[Wynnebeck]

It's gonna be another fun gen where console fanboys try to nit pick at each other deciding which version of a multi platform game is better. While PC gamers sit back and laugh, knowing they're playing the version everyone should be, if you want the best and full experience! Bring on the new gen

I really hate this "PC Master Race" type bullshit that's been festering since we first got hint of PS4/Xbone. It doesn't need to be stated every other thread.

 

[Takuya]

It's gonna be another fun gen where console fanboys try to nit pick at each other deciding which version of a multi platform game is better. While PC gamers sit back and laugh, knowing they're playing the version everyone should be, if you want the best and full experience! Bring on the new gen

My machine is pretty damn powerful, yet I still buy the console versions most of the time, and I don't laugh at them.

 

[Wynnebeck]

(Drops mic)

 

[NIGHT-]

Which version of GTAV is that?

We all know its coming.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

This is such a bullshit argument. If you are labeling the concerns of console gamers as "insecurities" and "dumb conversations", than you have missed the point completely.

This debate whether or not the PS4 will have a performance edge is relevant to the here and now. What IS bullshit is making light of a situation that will impact an entire generation.

We lived an entire generation where the minutia of visual enhancements were microscopically analyzed and flaunted. In an era where 360 and PS3 performance differences were subacute; we've seen port differences the likes of Red Dead Redemption, Bayonetta, Call of Duty Black Ops, Final Fantasy XIII, Ghostbusters etc. etc. etc. etc.


SHOCKING NEWS- on paper, the difference in performance between PS4/X1 is larger than 360/PS3. The biggest difference this time is similar architecture.

Whether PC gamer's like to believe it or not, console development sets an ambition for visual fidelity. Many people, including me (who owns a PC rig), don't care for the complexity, the small community, or the technical nags of PC gaming. I understand it's appeal, but let's be serious here, is it wrong for people to want console performance to be as high as possible? PC gamer's love to shit on the plebians with the $399 machine, but they have yet to understand there bloated and underutilized hardware indirectly benefits from these "1.8 TF last gen middling GPUs".


(Drops mic)

 

[Bsigg12]

We all know its coming.

But we'll be playing it in a month and a half where you'll be waiting 6 more months.

 

[Arkam]

I am shocked at how many people are claiming Carmack "isnt relevant" or "comes from a PC background".... The man is a tech wizard. If he says they are "close" they are close.

 

[NIGHT-]

But we'll be playing it in a month and a half where you'll be waiting 6 more months.

No.. I have a 360 and ps3. I'll double dip when the PC version comes out

 

[Troll]

I really hate this "PC Master Race" type bullshit that's been festering since we first got hint of PS4/Xbone. It doesn't need to be stated every other thread.

Arrogant posts like the one you referenced used to bother me 10 years ago. Sill, it doesn't make it any less true.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

I am shocked at how many people are claiming Carmack "isnt relevant" or "comes from a PC background".... The man is a tech wizard. If he says they are "close" they are close.

To be fair, he's admitted to not testing them. And "close" is subjective.

But to insult the man because he says something contrary to what you believe is flat out childish.

 

[Wynnebeck]

Arrogant posts like the one you referenced used to bother me 10 years ago. Sill, it doesn't make it any less true.

What are you implying? The fact remains that the subset of people who actually care enough to continually upgrade your rigs and play all the games on the highest settings possible is small but damn sure bark the loudest.

 

[NIGHT-]

To be fair, he's admitted to not testing them. And "close" is subjective.

But to insult the man because he says something contrary to what you believe is flat out childish.

Honestly.. If anyone can look at specs and determine where something stands, it's gonna be this guy. He lives and breaths this stuff

 

[AdventureRacing]

the small community

PC has a larger community than consoles. Not necessarily for the types of games released on consoles though.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I am shocked at how many people are claiming Carmack "isnt relevant" or "comes from a PC background".... The man is a tech wizard. If he says they are "close" they are close.

The problem is we don't know what definition of "close" he is using there. This is NOT an exact statement, and it could mean anything from "they have the same architecture, same feature set and same amount of RAM" to "there is a 4.95 percent difference in performance". You know, that's how programming and this computer science stuff usually works, you need exact statements.

 

[thuway]

PC has a larger community than consoles. Not necessarily for the types of games released on consoles though.

Semantics; etc. I am implying if I buy Resident Evil 6 on PC, I probably will have a much smaller (and less real life friends) pool of people to play with. I love PC gaming, I'm not shitting on it, but this thread has run a muck with people claiming the differences between X1 and PS4 don't matter because PC gonna PC.

 

[Biker19]

Carmack is biased. Worse than Digital Foundry.

I don't believe that it's the entire DF site being biased against PS systems, but there is someone in particular...Richard Leadbetter. He's the most anti-PS fan/writer on DF.

 

[TheD]

Um, no. The Cell is a PowerPC based architecture.

Only the PPE is a Power PC core like the 3 PPC cores in Xenon, the SPEs are not.

Master Race always cherry picking:

PC has best graphics, look at Titan. Not mentioning that only less than 1% of PC gamers own such a beast.

PC has largest community, look at social game XY. Not mentioning that the lion's share of these PCs will get outperformed by a next gen System like PS4 by orders of magnitude.

PS4 is more powerful than my PC even on paper. It'll outperform my rig in real world scenarios easily. So what is my benefit if I say "Yeah, look how weak PS4 seems compared to the Titan!"? I'm just fucking with myself by saying that. I don't own a Titan and by the way, I don't play one of these social games XY.

SMH.

A post like that says a lot about you.

 

[Bsigg12]

No.. I have a 360 and ps3. I'll double dip when the PC version comes out

Well that's excusable than. The port begging for the PC version because people are too good for consoles is annoying.

 

[Abominuz]

Already seeing posts, saying Carmack isnt relevant.
Those same people are just offended that he didnt say the PS4 is the ultimate console.
And the same people who say he is right are trying hard to close the gap between the One and PS4.
Fact is he said at first sight they look the same, but he didnt benchmark.
So still expect the PS4 to be 10 to 25% more powerfull.
And still it doesnt mather because the software will be how we measure the consoles.

 

[Troll]

What are you implying? The fact remains that the subset of people who actually care enough to continually upgrade your rigs and play all the games on the highest settings possible is small but damn sure bark the loudest.

I'm saying that they have always been here and it's nothing new. These guys have been on the forums talking shit on consoles since I can remember. If they want to spend unholy amounts of money just to keep playing on max settings throughout a gen that's fine but I'd rather just buy a console or two.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I am shocked at how many people are claiming Carmack "isnt relevant" or "comes from a PC background".... The man is a tech wizard. If he says they are "close" they are close.

Not only that, but if you listen to what he's saying in context, he's talking about how developers are going to be nowhere close to reaching the maximum of the machines as it's not economical. On top of that, he says that only recently has he felt that id has been able to say they got a fairly complete understanding of the 360, and that's 8 years after launch.

Not sure why everyone is picking out this one sentence out of everything he says over the course of two and a half hours... There's a lot more interesting topics of discussion he talks about in the video.

 

[zhorkat]

Rough transcript: "... it's almost amazing how close they are in capabilities, how common they are and uh that the capabilities they give are essentially the same. We can talk about differences in memory architectures, but, the bottom line being that they're a multicore AMD processor with AMD graphics, is, it's almost weird how close they are."
Starting at 16 minutes and 22 seconds here

EDIT: He also says some other stuff.

Starting from 24:49 - "Now everyone would like me to come out with some, some A over B comparison about the 2 platforms, and to be completely honest, I haven't done really rigorous benchmarking on them, so even if I didn't have NDA protection I couldn't give you a really completely honest answer. But, they're very close. They're both very good."

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

PC has a larger community than consoles.

He's referring to the "look at me I have a super expensive behemoth of a PC rig that will make next-gen consoles my bitch" community. That's an incredibly small minority that doesn't set any kind of market-target for any kind of developer when they design the visual target for their games. They do it for the mass consumed product, which are consoles.

 

[mr_nothin]

Didnt he say the same exact thing about the PS3/360?

 

[badb0y]

Rough transcript: "... it's almost amazing how close they are in capabilities, how common they are and uh that the capabilities they give are essentially the same. We can talk about differences in memory architectures, but, the bottom line being that they're a multicore AMD processor with AMD graphics, is, it's almost weird how close they are."
Starting at 16 minutes and 22 seconds here

What this quote implies is totally different than what the OP implies lol...

 

[zhorkat]

I'm still listening to the keynote. It's totally possible that Carmack makes another statement about the performance of the two consoles that I haven't reached yet. I'll edit in another quote if I reach one.

EDIT: Starting from 24:49 - "Now everyone would like me to come out with some, some A over B comparison about the 2 platforms, and to be completely honest, I haven't done really rigorous benchmarking on them, so even if I didn't have NDA protection I couldn't give you a really completely honest answer. But, they're very close. They're both very good."

So there you go.