I see. That's...pretty weird. lol
Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown
- Thread starter dmr87
- Start date
I see. That's...pretty weird. lol
meltingparappa
Member
If you have people openly saying a piece of art is sexist and promotes a misogynistic world view, it implies the people enjoying it are sexist and misogynistic, and hopefully you can understand how people would be hurt from a blanket statement saying they hate women.
I'm 99% sure we're on the same side of this argument, but that's just the insult that stings.
Thanks for this response -- I agree. The overarching discussion I've been seeing is *mostly* not a super-productive one, sadly. That said, I've had the good fortune of bumping into a few folks like yourself who are able to have a constructive dialogue without needing to find total adherence to one specific point of view in order to do so -- so it isn't ALL bad
As for "cultural relativism," I'm referring to a view I see used in a lot of left-leaning circles (to be clear, I'm familiar with the dialogue because I myself am often in those circles) that, in essence, it's unfair to apply "western" values to critique practices in other cultures, because to do so is to disrespect those cultures. In my view, it's taking the appropriate observation that we should respect and seek to understand other cultures, and twisting it into a dismissive conversation-ender. It comes up with some frequency in a lot of discussions about gender specifically, so that's probably why I took your comment as pointing in that direction -- apologies for assuming connotations you didn't intend.
Yup -- and your reactions and your friends' reactions all strike me as eminently reasonable. I think the kotaku bit saying the art was created by a teenage boy was tacky and lazy at best, and the polygon review title/characterization was barely better -- while the reviewer's underlying observations about how alienating the art was resonated with me, I actually cringed at her phrasing about it being a "teenage boy's fantasy." Like, is it really necessary to call something childish in order to critique it? If anything, it seems to me that this dismisses the very real ways in which actual adult men (not all of them, and not exclusively men, etc.) sometimes also help to perpetuate sexism.
And no, I don't believe that enjoying something that has sexist elements makes one a sexist, any more than finding those sexist elements alienating makes one a prude
And, to be clear, I'm not saying "the game is sexist" or even necessarily "the art is sexist," because I think that's an oversimplification of what sexism is and what it means in the broader cultural context. In my mind, the most important thing in these discussions is to stay respectful of other people's life experiences, and not to dismiss someone's point of view about something simply because it doesn't comport with one's own individual experience. This admittedly gets a bit trickier to navigate as you get into characterizations of broader social trends, but honestly, *this* discussion has sadly gotten so bogged down at this point that it'd be a breath of fresh air for it to at least come back "up" to the level of nitpicking about what counts as "privilege" and what doesn't.Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Thanks for calling me an insecure idiot, can't get enough of that!
"Unapologetic adolescent fantasy" is a convenient way for the reviewer to write off the audience for the game. That language was chosen specifically for its implications. Can we try to avoid insults please?
How is the reviewer casting aspersions?
Dragon's Crown's art style draws heavily from illustrations of swords-and-sorcery fantasy epics in the vein of Conan the Barbarian, which absolutely are unapologetic adolescent fantasies (and they tend to have a rather narrow view of women). And that's fine. I can enjoy unapologetic adolescent fantasies, the same way my mom can enjoy chick-lit set in the mid-19th century about noble British girls falling in love and going on carriage rides.
Whether that descriptor is positive or negative depends on whether you can enjoy that sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with liking it, though.
RoninChaos
Member
Still catching up but wanted to chime in about the adolescent boy power fantasy thing: that could have been phrased better. Much better. Or just left out. It definitely could come off as insulting to the people who have enjoyed the game and haven't given a lot of thought to what the depiction of women like the amazon could possibly mean. It does seem to marginalize the audience for this game to an extent.
However considering the general treatment of women in the games industry it's not hard to see why a female reviewer would use such language based on the sexualization of some of the female characters coupled with male exaggerations like the dwarf and fighter.
However considering the general treatment of women in the games industry it's not hard to see why a female reviewer would use such language based on the sexualization of some of the female characters coupled with male exaggerations like the dwarf and fighter.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I like how this thread has turned into the exact opposite of what it's subject mater is
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Last time I watched Conan the Barbarian it was a pretty damn adult movie...
I don't think that's fair, though, because in essence what that means is that the act of talking about sexism in culture is itself necessarily an insult to anyone who enjoys the aspect of culture you're addressing.
That's not to say that there aren't better/less offensive and worse/more offensive ways of phrasing and directing your criticism -- it's absolutely fair in my view to take issue with the reviewer writing off the sexualized aspects of the game as turning it into a "teenage boy's fantasy," and I know that not everyone here defending the review agrees with this assessment -- but the act of saying "this piece of art expresses sexism" is not at all the same thing as saying "anyone who enjoys this piece of art is a sexist." It's totally fair to note that a lot of people who make the former observation as a matter of practice go on to make the latter accusation, but the two things are not one and the same.
It was inevitable.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This is something that resonates with me and that I agree with.I think the kotaku bit saying the art was created by a teenage boy was tacky and lazy at best, and the polygon review title/characterization was barely better -- while the reviewer's underlying observations about how alienating the art was resonated with me, I actually cringed at her phrasing about it being a "teenage boy's fantasy." Like, is it really necessary to call something childish in order to critique it? If anything, it seems to me that this dismisses the very real ways in which actual adult men (not all of them, and not exclusively men, etc.) sometimes also help to perpetuate sexism.
And no, I don't believe that enjoying something that has sexist elements makes one a sexist, any more than finding those sexist elements alienating makes one a prude
"Young adult male fantasy" fits better. The term "adolescent fantasy" implies the target audience is teenage boys.
It should have been locked a while ago.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Thats fair, decent points and I definitely can't prove it. But stirring up controversy is often deliberately used as a marketing tactic. The idea being that being talked about is always better than being ignored. While it does make enemies it also makes allies who feel more strongly about supporting you than they might have otherwise and I think that shows in how passionate people are getting in defence of it. I mean, the Polygon review managed to stir up similar reactions to the Uncharted\TLoU\Zelda reviews which is pretty incredible for a Vanillaware game. I don't think it was deliberate in this case but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the people behind the game are delighted at all the attention it's getting.
NullPointer
Member
Do you believe the person who described the game that way thinks there is anything wrong with liking it? Because I'm purely talking about the perspective and intent behind those words. I think that description was meant as a negative, and thus casts aspersions on its audience. But as I cannot peer into the writer's soul I only get this from context, and could be wrong here. That's how it looks to me.
I'm definitely not suggesting that people should feel wrong for liking it. Hell, I love the art style here, innuendo and all. That style, along with new game+ and the labyrinth of chaos got me to pull the trigger on this day one.
Max Knight
Member
That's kind of a true statement though. To a lot of people, the insinuation that an activity or product they enjoy is somehow disruptive to social equality implies that they are indirectly supporting those misguided viewpoints by not actively rejecting said activity or product. People take offense to this notion, because they don't identify with the groups of people (sexists, racists, etc.) who support the ideas being brought to light. This is a valid perspective.
Some people are going to be offended, no matter how nicely you try to word your objections. We should not stop talking about it just because some people lack introspection though. You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and you're not going to be able to talk about this without looking like a jerk to somebody.
And you're right, it's not fair at all. C'est la vie.
Back atcha, new internet friend!
Weltall Zero
Member
I googled "Mai Shiranui animations" and these were literally the first two image hits:
Observe these are not "falling down" animations, but entirely intentional poses. Yet very few reviewers harp on her progressively more ridiculous animations nowadays.
Not saying that there's no sexualization in Dragon's Crown, but acting as if this is suddently the only example there ever was is beyond ridiculous.
Riposte
Member
If people can't pin down what "mature" means, then the same should be the case with "adolescent". This was material made for adults by adults, so we can't use audience to define things. Even that wouldn't be all too relevant if many adults enjoyed it anyway. When we try to look at what people mean by "adolescent" material it comes down to them making their regular old taste choices, but with a process of going the extra mile in weighing down what they disapprove of to make it more drastic. Even if they like "adolescent" material, they are sure to imply that they are slightly ashamed of that and push that feeling onto others. It is unfortunate that people just assume norms have been ironed out to the point that we can freely call sexy or violent games "adolescent" if don't fit some pseudo-intellectual's checklist. I like that some people don't bend to that.
Trying to say it is not an indirect insult is nonsense. It is deceptive the way people try to make a neutral comment when the meaning is pretty much intact once you expand on it. There is a good reason why comments like "a teenager's fantasy" and "drawn by a 12 year old" popped up alongside people saying it was an adolescent fantasy. The slyness is what bothers me the most. In short, it is completely unhelpful to discussion.
Trying to say it is not an indirect insult is nonsense. It is deceptive the way people try to make a neutral comment when the meaning is pretty much intact once you expand on it. There is a good reason why comments like "a teenager's fantasy" and "drawn by a 12 year old" popped up alongside people saying it was an adolescent fantasy. The slyness is what bothers me the most. In short, it is completely unhelpful to discussion.
To be clear, I'm not saying that people won't take criticisms this way -- or even that it's necessarily unjustified in every case. The point I'm trying to make is much more basic than that: insulting people is not inherent in pointing out sexism in art and culture. To say that it is (which is how the previous comment read to me) is tantamount to saying that the simple act of discussing sexism is itself uncivilized, which is... well, it's just a way of shutting down discussion.
It's important not to conflate the legitimacy and sincerity of feelings of offense with the imputation of offensiveness as an objective characterization. There are certainly many things that could be said to be "more" or "less" offensive, and it's probably fair to qualify some statements as being pretty clearly in or out of the "offensive" category. So, for instance, I'm comfortable categorizing something like "this game's over-reliance on sexist exaggerations of women's bodies makes it impossible for real grown-up gamers to enjoy" in the "insulting and offensive" category -- but that doesn't mean that there is no possible way to express the underlying observations in a manner that isn't fairly characterized as insulting and offensive. For example, if I said "I found myself unable to enjoy this game because the highly-sexualized nature of the female protagonists made me feel small and worthless," I'm not seeing how someone who feels differently could reasonably suggest I've somehow insulted him or her. He or she may sincerely feel insulted or offended, but that insult or offense is not a reasonably-foreseeable consequence of my remarks.
By the way, to be clear, I absolutely "get" and agree that some interpretations of art are themselves subject to this observation as well, although it frequently gets twisted into accusations that people are "manufacturing outrage" or "looking for reasons" to be offended, which accusations are incredibly counterproductive. There are a lot of layers to this. Not every experience of offense is the result of of something fairly characterized as offensive -- but, that said, this doesn't make it okay to accuse people of being insincere in their expression of offense, or to therefore lump in all expressions of offense as equally source-justified or unjustified, as the case may be.
Lyot
Member
All this Dragon's Crown debacle remind me of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43V6wA4Y75Q
USA (yes, don't be saying "western culture" above, this is specially idiosyncratic of your country, and perhaps the UK too, an anglo thing) is hopeless in this matter. It's not about boobs, sexuality, sexism, racism, or whatever. It's a culture that's looking excuses to be offended every damn time.
Edit: Oh and yes, this is also for the people offended by that polygon review. I still haven't read it lol the whole spectacle would be impossible in my country. Here we're only offended by politicians.
USA (yes, don't be saying "western culture" above, this is specially idiosyncratic of your country, and perhaps the UK too, an anglo thing) is hopeless in this matter. It's not about boobs, sexuality, sexism, racism, or whatever. It's a culture that's looking excuses to be offended every damn time.
Edit: Oh and yes, this is also for the people offended by that polygon review. I still haven't read it lol the whole spectacle would be impossible in my country. Here we're only offended by politicians.
Has anyone said that?
No, but I have seen a lack of media focusing on the "heritage" of the style. Just to play Devil's advocate.
Max Knight
Member
While it is not likely to offend, your quoted statement seems to indicate more about self-esteem than negative portrayals of women in video games. To me, that statement denotes the portrayal of women in the game makes you feel insecure, but not necessarily that it is objectively harmful in the grand scheme, which I think is more on point.
Also, for the record, I read and agree with the rest of your reply; I only quoted the one section to specify what I'm responding to.
"That opened up a huge dialogue about Mexican-American sensibilities and the inaccurate uses of the word crazy.
...
Just kidding. I told her to SHUT THE FUCK UP!"
OMG DYING.
Oh dear. Well, it seems you took about half of the video's message, at least.
Weltall Zero
Member
The heritage of big floppy anime boobs?
RoninChaos wanted examples of other games like the images he posted, and when presented with MGS4's photography scene narrowed it down to animations like his images.
RoninChaos
Member
I googled "Mai Shiranui animations" and these were literally the first two image hits:
Observe these are not "falling down" animations, but entirely intentional poses. Yet very few reviewers harp on her progressively more ridiculous animations nowadays.
Not saying that there's no sexualization in Dragon's Crown, but acting as if this is suddently the only example there ever was is beyond ridiculous.
No one has said that. Rather, the response that we've seen in this thread has consisted of the idea that, somehow, no other games have EVER come under any scrutinization for sexist undertones or connotation. That assertion is simply not true. Further, people stated that a big publisher wouldn't have to deal with something like what little japanese developer VanillaWare is dealing with, and that isn't true either. Multiple companies, BIG companies, have been lambasted in the media for the type of content their games display. That argument just doesn't hold water.
Now, in regards to Mai:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gamers-vs-sexism
I'm sure I could google many links for you to peruse but Mai's depiction has been dealt with by a lot of different outlets. 1up did a whole week long group of cover stories about sexism and Mai was brought up during that as well. I also grew up in the fighting game community and help run Final Round every year, and there has been plenty of stuff over the years condeming SNK's presentation of characters like Mai. Capcom even caught shit when Chun Li put her ass in the air when throwing a fireball in SFA.
People have already listed responses to the Metal Gear examples as well.
Examples like these, coupled with the fire that Bioware has gotten for their sex scenes, things like hot coffee, or the size of Lara Croft's chest, etc. show that VanillaWare is not being picked up because they're a small Japanese company. There are a lot of eyes on the video game industry that will point out these things that have no issue pointing out these issues on a national scale.
And, for the record, if people want to get into semantics for the definition of "mainstream", I said that specifically in response to the idea that big game publishers simply wouldn't have to deal with any fallout for blatant sexualization. I wouldn't consider Fatal Fury/KoF or Mai Shiranui to be mainstream. If anything I'd say they fall into the same niche that Dragon's Crown does. The question was specifically in response to the idea that mainstream games would never deal with this kind of scrutiny. Metal Gear, however, is quite mainstream and the gaming media has brought up Kojima's idea and depiction of women previously. Not nearly as crassly as the kotaku article, but it's happened. Frequently.
Saying that it's just "people who want to be offended" is a pretty easy way to dismiss everyone who brings up legitimate concerns about the portrayal of women, minorities, homo- and transsexual people in the media. It's an important issue for a lot of people, and hand waving it just because you don't want to have the conversation is hand waving all of those people and telling them their life experiences don't matter.
Hang on. Ronin asked for examples of "mainstream games" (what qualifies as that is another debate) that had sexualization on par with Dragon's Crown, and wasn't called out for it. It wasn't meant to say "no other game has sexualization". It seems to be saying the opposite. The argument Ronin made was against the conspiracy that small Japanese devs are being targeted.
MGS4 has been called out. KOF's Mai has been called out to death since the 90s. Making a fuss about Mai now would certainly be met with "lol, welcome to 20 years ago"
RoninChaos
Member
Exactly. Thank you. Mai especially has been called out numerous times over the last 15+ years. The idea that Dragon's Crown is only being attacked because it was made by a small Japanese developer is plain wrong and there's plenty of evidence to support that.
NullPointer
Member
There is a lovely heritage of big ole floppy boobs. A wondrous one.
For far, far, far more on those lovely glands which provided sustenance to all of us (ok, most of us?) in our youth, both male and female alike, and provided our earliest sensations of warmth, softness, nourishment and well-being, this is a great book, if you can find it.
^^^ NSFW link as there be nipples on the book cover.
Well... of course sexism has to do with self-esteem. I mean, it has to do with other things too, but that's definitely a part of it -- especially when we're talking about things like media portrayals of women (as contrasted with things like discrimination in hiring). You don't think that negative cultural portrayals of women might affect women's self-esteem after decades of ubiquitous exposure? And you don't think that this type of effect could be considered objectively harmful?
I've heard sexism described elsewhere as "a million tiny paper cuts," and, honestly, that's something that I strongly relate to. Any one thing, like this game, or that movie, is easy to hand-wave away because, hey, it's just this one tiny thing. It's a paper cut. Does it really matter so much in the grand scheme of things? And, I mean, on a technical level, of course it doesn't. Most reasonable people will be compelled to acknowledge this. That's why this is such a common argumentative tactic in these discussions.
But that's just it; *none* of it matters "in the grand scheme of things" any time you're talking about any one thing. When will anything ever be "on point" if this is the standard we set? This is what people mean when they say you can't look at these things in a vacuum.
Honestly, the way these things tend to flare up is rarely about people having some particular reason for picking on this thing or that; it's more a timing issue and an attention issue. Today I have the energy to talk about this. A week ago it was too taxing. Today this specific piece of culture is getting attention so there's a conversation for me to join. A month ago I wasn't aware of any conversations going on -- or a month ago I was talking about this but no one was listening. Etc., etc., etc.
RoninChaos
Member
Nothing matters in the grand scheme of things if you frame everything in that manner.
Weltall Zero
Member
Ah, I actually agree with your whole post. The only thing that I have to point out is that many series that have obvious sexualization as part of their gimmics (KOF in the shape of Mai and others, Dead or Alive, and sadly the last decade of Soul Calibur) tend to get less flak upon release of new installments than entirely new games. Sure, they are mentioned in "catch-all" articles against sexualization, but they're rarely singled out. I believe this is simply out of a feeling that the reviewer is "beating on a dead horse" by complaining about that in a game in a series already known for that. Or perhaps, simply, these games are handled to fans of the series, who don't have any issues with that.
I still think Dragon's Crown is in a different category than these, because while there's obvious sexualization in its art, I feel it's done from a certain artistic point of view, and exaggerated to the point that it's not (at least for a lot of people including me) even "sexually" attractive per se. This is in contrast to the base, obvious, unoriginal efforts to titillate and entice that is the norm when videogames use this trope. The comparison to prehistoric venuses is not entirely unwarranted.
meltingparappa
Member
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but...
(probably NSFW, although no nudity)
A vaguely 1:1 male version of that odalisque NPC getting poked.
Honestly I really wish it was in the game for a variety of reasons.
(probably NSFW, although no nudity)
A vaguely 1:1 male version of that odalisque NPC getting poked.
Honestly I really wish it was in the game for a variety of reasons.
Sigh...
Why does it seem that we can't have a conversation involving breasts that doesn't pretend it's a purely binary issue of "breasts are the devil" versus "breasts should be worshipped"? How about just plain old "breasts are a body part like any other"? No? Do they always have to be magic, and it's just a question of whether they're good magic or bad magic?
Not that magic breasts would be bad. I'd love to have magic breasts. It's just, I don't. Because breasts aren't magic. If people are going to keep telling me my breasts are magic, I should at least, I don't know, get three wishes for it or something.
NullPointer
Member
I was hoping to lighten the mood with that one. It was a great book tho.
Mission Failed I guess ;P
Breasts are kindof magical though. Its not just being poetic to say that they form our earliest conceptions of warmth, safety and nourishment outside of the womb, and those early foundation impulses stick with us throughout our lives and find expression in our lives and culture in a myriad of ways, some subtle and some less so.
Weltall Zero
Member
It seems to me that if the issue is self-esteem, then the fact that only the most beautiful women are allowed to portray women with any degree of significance to the plot, in mainstream movies, TV, etc. is more worrying. For one, it's much more pervasive (a much larger percentage of those thousand cuts) and you're exposed to it much more frequently.
What is the reason why one single videogame with ridiculously exaggerated females stirs more controversy that the fact that you have to look like Jessica Alba if you want to be in a movie? Does the sorceress really make regular women feel more insecure than Scarlet Johanson does?
I'm not saying we shouldn't be discussion whether or not DC's designs are problematic (we should) because "there's more important reasons for insecurity". I'm saying I've very rarely seen those mentioned as an issue at all.
Meh. You know what's magical? Eyes. Hands. Achilles tendons. Both in terms of pure cumulative use and day-to-day reliance, all of those things influence our lives far more than breasts (especially in the modern era of baby formula, which makes it much easier to nourish a baby properly when there are no milk-producing human breasts available). Why don't we wax equally poetic about these miraculous and amazing features of human anatomy?
And I don't think you can speak for everyone when you speak so fondly of breasts. I adore my mother and find her presence incredibly nurturing, but thinking about her breasts isn't something I find myself doing, um, almost ever.
Max Knight
Member
I was merely pointing out you made the phrasing less offensive at the expense of clarity.
You connected a lot of dots to get to your correct point, but not everyone has the same experience and perspective as you and might not necessarily equate a self-esteem blow to sexism in the same way you do.
On the other hand, just saying "Dragon's Crown's hyper-sexualized depiction of women is sexist and harmful to the goal of social equality" is a much clearer way of saying the same thing. Someone will probably think you're calling them a sexist pig, but at least there's no mistaking your talking point.
That's what I was talking about.
For what it's worth, your replies have been thoughtful and interesting to read, and I largely agree with you. I apologize if I've struck a nerve (although I'm not entirely sure I have--just saying so to be safe).
What's that have to do with the discussion at hand, though? Surely you're aware of the volumes of work that's already been done about feminine beauty myths in our culture and their perpetuating through movies, TV, advertising, etc.
Well, wait, though. Are you suggesting that there has literally been more discussion about arguably sexist elements in Dragon's Crown than there is about sexism in media portrayals of female celebrities? I mean. No, you can't possibly be suggesting that. So... I'm not really sure what you're asking here.
That might be fair, and I think it's because it's difficult for a lot of women to understand the source of their own discomfort (it's taken me years of therapy, if you want to get personal about it -- and my issues are only partly due to sexism, though they are most certainly exacerbated by sexism). But I think that if you approach the issue with patience and gentleness, you'll find that these feelings are a lot more common than you previously realized.
RoninChaos
Member
Because a beat 'em up is the same as hardcore porn.
C'mon son.
C'mon son.
Sure, I get that -- I'd still say I don't think it's quite fair to imply, if you are, that this is because saying that something is sexist is the same as calling a person a sexist. But I suspect that any degree of difference we have on this account is pretty minimal and not really worth a lot of nitpicky quibbling, regardless. This isn't the academy, heh.
Nahhhh, not really (fairer to say perhaps that nerves were brushed up against, but more by the subject matter itself really than most individual commenters -- which is just the price of consciousness-raising, to be really old-school about it ;-)), but I do appreciate the thoughtful note.
Max Knight
Member
I'm not saying anyone intends to call people sexist by calling something they enjoy sexist, but many people will perceive it that way. Furthermore, trying to tiptoe around on phrasing to avoid offending people risks diluting the point of the message, which is especially important to consider when addressing people who may not know there's a problem to begin with.
I'm saying it's better to just let people be offended, because this stuff is too important to sugar-coat. That was my original point.
Edit: To clarify further, I am not defending the deliberate implied-insults-disguised-as-media-criticism angle that some people take; we shouldn't be trying to take jabs. It's just that, if an insecure person takes personal offense to a simple criticism of a product or activity they happen to enjoy, it's not the critic's responsibility to help them sort that out.
Because those are not sexualized body parts.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
MGS4 wasn't called out, PW did and that was the reason a *single article* was made on scapistmagazine about Kojima. MGS4 wasn't called out in none of his reviews or before it was released.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I agree with this, specifically that "teenage boy" isn't the best way to be framing the issue.
And no, I don't believe that enjoying something that has sexist elements makes one a sexist, any more than finding those sexist elements alienating makes one a prude
Yup, I don't necessarily believe the game is sexist or that enjoying it makes you a sexist, but I do believe that some of the female character designs in the game serve to further a current of sexist objectification of women in entertainment media.
EDIT: Yeah this I fully agree with: