Jimquisition: Dragon's Frown
- Thread starter dmr87
- Start date
Nealand Liquor
Member
Holy fuck am I getting tired of the villainization of heterosexual male fantasy. Is there ever going to be a time when certain groups can accept we like big tits and ass and leave us the fuck alone?
Is it going to take us to protest them rubbing one off to flannel shirts and Bieber hair cuts before they get back th fuck off?
It would be totally different if this game wasn't advertised to be what it is, but it isn't so fuck off.
Is it going to take us to protest them rubbing one off to flannel shirts and Bieber hair cuts before they get back th fuck off?
It would be totally different if this game wasn't advertised to be what it is, but it isn't so fuck off.
NullPointer
Member
I'm game. Especially if there are beers involved.
Not even slightly close to what I was getting at, but regardless I'm now backing away from the breasts... this is me backing away.
Weltall Zero
Member
I think we might be mixing things here. Society at large and media in particular do usually go out of their way to make people of both genders feel "inadequate" and "imperfect". Unfortunately, I really don't think we'll see a significant change in that behaviour in our lifetimes, if ever, so it becomes necessary in the long run to develop a healthy immunity to outside comments and peer pressure (this also makes you a stronger, more balanced person). I do realize this is harder for women because society scrutinizes them that much more heavily, pervasively and often, though. Being aware and making others aware that a problem exists is a start, if not to change the probably unchangeable, at least to get them to stop being a part of the problem, and start supporting this "tuning out" of this message.
That notwithstanding, the thing is that reducing the problem of sexism to "self-esteem" is, in my opinion, somewhat trivializing it. To me the problem is, well, that of objectification itself; by reducing a woman to its sexual characteristics, it's made into a thing, and therefore inferior and powerless.
To clarify: I think the feeling of "self-esteem" is misguided, because it makes fellow women (or, well, depictions of them) your "rivals". Instead, the problem is that of objectification itself, which hurts ALL women. That's why it's a feminist issue.
Again, writing all this while Dragon's Crown is my most awaited game of the year, and firmly convinced that the controversy about it is not white or black, but gray.
You... I like you.
Eh, no need. Wasn't trying to pick on you specifically, just saw a thing I've seen a lot of other places and took the opportunity to talk about that thing. Nothing wrong with you liking or even worshipping breasts, really. It's cool. I find them mostly boring, personally, and I think that's cool too. I just wish more people validated that that's cool too, I guess. Can I be cool too? Please?
A *single review* on a site NeoGAF regularly calls trash called out Dragon's Crown.
And the MGS series has been discussed for portrayal of women. But it has to be specifically one game?
The discussions existed. Maybe not on prominent websites. But they existed.
For example: http://scholarlygamer.blogspot.ca/2008/07/metal-gear-solid-4-breast-game-ever.html
What are you even trying to say? In order for you to accept that people aren't just being mean and picking on Dragon's Crown, every single game that had portrayed women in even a remotely sexy way in the history of games needs to have had a review that mentioned it?
Opinions evolve. Our very own Jim here openly acknowledges his flawed stance in the past and has evolved his opinion. So say the media let things slide in 2008 that they do not in 2013. So...? Moving forward is what's important. If we see things on the level of Dragon's Crown in upcoming games that the media chooses to ignore, then you have a point.
Saying that because there wasn't a super loud major gaming outlet outcry about MGS4 in 2008 means talking about Dragon's Crown in 2013 is some unfair targeted assault on Vanillaware or whatever is silly.
And still, it has only been one major blog (Kotaku, which NeoGAF says is garbage) and one major review (Polygon, which NeoGAF says is trash) that has really done anything to discuss Dragon's Crown's portrayal of women.
I don't disagree at all, although I think it happens in different ways. I've seen someone express this far more thoughtfully and eloquently than I'm about to do right now, but the difference seems to be, basically, that in a weird way there are actually kind of three cultural genders. There's women, there's men, and there's male humans, which aren't the same as men. And this means a couple of different things. On the one hand, it means that, just as you note, there's a lot of messaging out there to boys and men that absolutely makes them feel inadequate -- and that stuff is absolutely problematic, and there's this whole thing built into it with rites of passage and lots of other stuff that's probably too deep for a quick Neogaf convo, but basically male humans, if they're good enough, get the opportunity to "earn" being a "man." This can be really oppressive, because it massively ups the stakes of failure for guys. But then the flip side of this is that manhood is something you earn, and womanhood is something you just have or are. And one of the many negative results of this is that being a woman has kind of constant value (that value being somewhere between "male human" and "man," with "man" way up at the top), which translates into women not having opportunities to be more than a couple of things (wives, mothers, etc.), even if it also means that women don't have to do anything to "earn" their gender the way men do.
Like I said, this is MASSIVELY oversimplified, but basically: yeah. There's a lot of stuff out there to hurt men's self-esteem, too, but there's also a way for them to "earn" their way out of being whatever negative thing they're told they are. Whereas for us women, there's no way to "earn" our way out of it. And just so we're clear: I am one billion percent absolutely NOT suggesting in any way, shape or form that this isn't incredibly damaging to men and boys or that this damage is somehow less important or anything at all like that. Again, lots more that could be said about this from a lot of different perspectives, but I'm trying to avoid turning this comment into a novel
Totally agree, and this is why I (some might say foolishly) jump into the fray on this again and again.
Well, a couple things. First, to clarify, I wasn't reducing sexism to self-esteem -- I was just pointing out that self-esteem is one of the things sexism affects, and it's valid to point to self-esteem effects as an example of harm from sexism. Similarly, I'm not quite clear what the difference is between self-esteem and presenting a view of women as inferior and powerless. If women see themselves as inferior and powerless, is that issue not one of self-esteem? Men seeing women as powerless is, sure, different from self-esteem, but women's views of themselves are just as important as men's views of women.
And I don't see that self-esteem has anything to do with rivalry. If you're observing that low self-esteem sometimes expresses itself through rivalry, that's definitely true in my experience, and is one of the many reasons self-esteem is a thing worth worrying about. How do you see objectification as a problem apart from self-esteem? Like, what is the problematic function of objectification if it is not to detach women from their own sense of self-worth?
Couldn't agree more with this
Relaxed Muscle
Member
2 Major Blog between Polygon and Kotaku and several references in other sites. Is way more that what MGS4 received in the important gaming sites, one blog that barely no ones read is not notorious and much less speaks volume about how game journalism was ever hard with MGS4. I don't know why people keep referencing random blogs when speaking about "gaming journalism" at large, they don't have the impact in people readers and in what view they may have like major sites....
And I don't buy the opnions evolves argument, let's see how MGS5 (and many other important games) fares before saying such things.
The Technomancer said:
So is not sexist but is still bad, that's hard, even when a game is not sexist is still helping sexism, somehow.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The game is not overall sexist. The design of the sword on the warrior isn't sexist. The mechanics aren't sexist. But some of the art used in it is sexist. That's what I was getting at.
I don't mean some random blog is really anything. There have been a lot of random blogs posted in these topics and I wanted to say that there were people who spoke of these things back then too. As I said in previous posts, it just wasn't as loud. I also think that the bigger media discussing bigger social issues is this industry growing. Like all art forms, we discuss things beyond mechanics.
Animal Farm isn't just a book about speaking animals on a farm. There is social commentary to be taken from it.
英雄 (Hero) isn't just a stylish martial arts flick. There is social commentary to be taken from it.
Now this industry is coming to an age where we regularly discuss deeper social meanings. And people would seek to shut that down and focus on talking about which button jumps and how many guns are in a game or whatever.
A lack of discussion 5 years ago is not a valid argument to bring back a lack of discussion in the present.
And you don't buy that people's opinions over a 5 year span change? In this industry with super young people working as media, it is impossible that the face of this media and the opinions of the people are different in 2013 than they were in 2008?
Even yourself. Are you the same person with the same views (having learned nothing I guess?) today as you were 5 years ago? You haven't grown or evolved mentally in any way?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So...it's sexist?
I don't get it. I know that not every piece of the game it's sexist (obviously), but if it has sexist elements then...it's sexist.
Is growing but not in the right direction IMO, but even if it's true I don't think, still, major pieces of software is gonna suffer the same escrutiny that niche games. And that's it what is happening now. It could change?Maybe or maybe not, In the same way some people change and some other never changes. The fact is right now, this is we stand at.
RoninChaos
Member
So what is the right direction? Not talking about this stuff?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Eh, I'd disagree, because people really seem to get hung up on that. Saying "the game is sexist" seems to put people who like the game for reasons like its mechanics or its artstyle overall on the defensive. I think we might get better dialogue if we confine ourselves to "this depiction of women is sexist"
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Asking involving more females in the creation of games, create more games oriented for them and that involves more females in leading roles and an overall better representation. Not condemning games for appealing to certain tastes involving sexualized content, not asking developers to create less of these games, but rather asking other developers to create more varied type of games that dosn't use tired troupes, using females, not sexualizing them if they don't feel it's the vision they want for the game
Create a market when more tastes can fill (female tastes for example), not ostracizing certain types of games and pointing at them instead of all of the above.
That's disingenuous to avoid confrontation. "Hey you know, I don't think this game in "overall" is sexist, I mean those flowers in the background aren't sexist, but that sexualized women over there? yeah, that's sexist"
I feel if you call "that depiction of women is sexist" or that the sexualization of women is sexist, then you are really saying that the artstyle is sexist, and indeed the game is.
spandexmonkey
Banned
That gray area is largely why having this debate over a game like Dragon's Crown is a horrible choice for a battlefield. You're having to navigate a mine field of topics such as people's views on sexuality, fantasy vs reality, self image, etc just to reach the potential discussion on sexism. Approach the topic like a blunt instrument and you come off as trying to define morals for others, all but ensuring a battle that no one will win.
Personally, the feminist arguments that resonate most with me, are the ones that ask for inclusion. Dragon's Crown wears it's sexuality on it's sleeve, so if a woman said she appreciates the openness to sex, but wishes there was something that catered to her desires, I could see that. That makes sense to me, there should be more entertainment focused on women's sexuality.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If by trying to be diplomatic in my language I can attempt to get past people's initial knee-jerk reactions and maybe get them to think about the other side of the issue I'm going to try
Relaxed Muscle
Member
It feels more like actually trying to fool them into thinking you aren't calling the game "sexist" when you actually are.
If sexualization of women in a game equals sexism in your opinion you should say so. I don't agree and other people may agree or not, but I don't think hiding it between deceiving words is helpful at all.
But you can keep that diplomaticness, I'm tired too to keep debating.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But I really don't believe the game as a whole is sexist, thats what I'm trying to get across. The game has very specific elements that I believe are sexist, yes. A property of a component does not necessarily become a property of the whole.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Then not a piece of media and art is sexist then, it just have specific sexist elements?.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
A billboard that contains a sexist image is entirely sexist, yes, because there is only one dominant element to its composition. A film with a major theme that could be called sexist running through it may be a sexist film as a whole because of how important the theme is. The design of two main characters that I find sexist is enough for me to feel its wrong and to wish for and even advocate for change in the industry, but I don't believe its such a large part of the game that I would, for example, tell people not to buy it they way I might if I saw what I thought was a spectacularly racist movie.
I dunno, I view everything in shades of complexity.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So the problem is only the two protagonists, not the NPC females?...that's kinda...arbitrary. But I'm not gonna push anymore.
SMT
this show is not Breaking Bad why is it not Breaking Bad? it should be Breaking Bad dammit Breaking Bad
Polygon just copies what Patrician Hernandez has to say, because she gets hits, and they're yearning to be the next Kotaku.
I knew this was coming, I don't give a fuck anymore, I love fan-service, I don't care if someone else finds it 'degrading', fictional characters cannot be appreciated anymore, it's 'offensive'. Shove it up your ass, you don't need to play it, don't need to buy it, don't even need to talk about it.
Let's go after the porn industry while we're at it.
I think of this game as a tribute to female/male anatomy. Who cares if people lust over it?
I knew this was coming, I don't give a fuck anymore, I love fan-service, I don't care if someone else finds it 'degrading', fictional characters cannot be appreciated anymore, it's 'offensive'. Shove it up your ass, you don't need to play it, don't need to buy it, don't even need to talk about it.
Let's go after the porn industry while we're at it.
I think of this game as a tribute to female/male anatomy. Who cares if people lust over it?
You can do all of that and still critique certain games as being indicative of elements you find distasteful or a hinderance to progress. It's not an either/or kind of thing. In fact, this sort of critique is important to progress; people need to know what those speaking up don't like in order to try and find out what they do like.
MaximoffZero
Banned
First off, I've only read the last few pages of this thread, so I apologize if I say something that's old news.
I've been following Kotaku. They continue to push the sexism angle of this game every time they talk about it and are doing the same with other games as well.
Their pushing of this feminist angle seems to have attracted a new crowd of extreme feminists to the comments sections. It seems like now on every article some one declares the game being discussed is sexist. These people tend to be (in my opinion) extremely snotty and annoying.
I've admittedly joined in the arguments a few times, but it really is pointless. It usually ends up melting down into childish name calling and I've yet to see a solid civilized argument either way on there (not that I was expecting one).
Anyway, I said all that to say that I appreciate the thought and civility that was put into a lot of the posts of this thread. Even the members who at least claim to be women seem to be very objective about this subject. It's just really a breath of fresh air after all the crap I've read on Ko♀aku.
I've been following Kotaku. They continue to push the sexism angle of this game every time they talk about it and are doing the same with other games as well.
Their pushing of this feminist angle seems to have attracted a new crowd of extreme feminists to the comments sections. It seems like now on every article some one declares the game being discussed is sexist. These people tend to be (in my opinion) extremely snotty and annoying.
I've admittedly joined in the arguments a few times, but it really is pointless. It usually ends up melting down into childish name calling and I've yet to see a solid civilized argument either way on there (not that I was expecting one).
Anyway, I said all that to say that I appreciate the thought and civility that was put into a lot of the posts of this thread. Even the members who at least claim to be women seem to be very objective about this subject. It's just really a breath of fresh air after all the crap I've read on Ko♀aku.
weirdingway
Banned
That video was a lot of fun to listen to (no sarcasm).
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There's nothing distateful about this game, only if you find sexuality distateful, which is not the game problem and maybe that person should consider that certain type of media is not for him/her, but there's nothing wrong with a game appealing to those tastes and the people who like it and there's no hindrance, because the fact the game is made dosn't block any other game that may cover different themes and market.
Of course other games may present real sexist problems, like Metroid Other M, then those are cases that definetly needs to be brought to the public. Still is a poor course of action if things want to progress in a substantial manner, bring to light those few real cases of active sexism on games won't mean anything if the industry dosn't change from the inside.
First, let's be clear: the individuals pointing out the problematic elements in question didn't "choose" to make the game a "battlefield." That happened due to the extreme and vocal backlash and resulting war of words.
Second, what's so special about Dragon's Crown that it should be exempt from discussion? Why? You're never going to find a piece of media that is both worth discussing and devoid of a whole list of complicating elements like the one you wrote here. If you want to take issue with people being insufficiently subtle about the topic, then absolutely, by all means, call out black-and-white comments for what they are. Insist on the requisite nuance the game (and gamers) deserves. But I don't see what it is about Dragon's Crown that serves as a reason to table the discussion for... what? Some other game that people will object to discussing? The thing to remember is that there will always be resistance to discussions like this. Always.
Yeah, but it's a little more complicated than that, partly because inclusiveness of women *also* entails making room for an overall environment in which women don't feel shut out, alienated, unwelcome, etc. And that means it's important to have a grown-up conversation when some women suggest that these types of representations make them feel unwelcome. Maybe the end result is that gamers, by responding with maturity and sensitivity to those concerns, help women recognize that it's really no big deal. But we're never going to get to that end result if people continue yelling at women to stop having opinions about sexism, and accusing women of "hating sex" and "hating male heterosexual fantasies" just because they've expressed discomfort about something. (Again, as I've said elsewhere, I recognize that the journos who sparked the debate used some really crude terms here, and that's really unfortunate -- but either the debate belongs to the community now or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, then whom are you arguing with?)
If women's discomfort is borne of misunderstanding, then help us understand better. Help us see why games like these don't mean we aren't welcome and valued members of the community. Yelling at us to shut up is pretty much never going to accomplish that.
Funny; I'd say the same thing about many of the members who at least claim to be men
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You don't think that the media that gets made has a significant influence on the media that's being made?=
You know that there are many different types of sexuality, right? And that this game seems to emphasize a very, very limited subset of sexuality -- right?
I ask because you seem to be using the term "sexuality" as though you're describing some objective quality, as though "sexuality" is exactly XYZ and that's what it is, period, full stop. This is probably a more complicated topic than we need to get into here, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. Like, when you say that the game is big on "sexuality," you're kind of erasing so many other kinds of sexuality, which is a problematic approach to an already-loaded topic imo.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Nope at least in a general meaning, you find lots of movies that has significantly grades of sexuality, yet all kind of movies are made, in the midst of productions like Spartacus and GoT you find products like The Good Wife, Braking Bad or Glee.
That media may influence the media of the same type that will be made further, but no other media that is made of other public or tastes. But we need that on games, games made for other public and tastes.
male appealing sexuality? I don't know how could I specify more. When I mean sexuality I mean in the context of this particular game and similar media.
MaximoffZero
Banned
Funny; I'd say the same thing about many of the members who at least claim to be men
Sorry. I don't trust the internet at all. =P
What makes Other M a "real sexist problem" as opposed to Dragon's Crown? Who decides that? That's the thing: perspective changes based on the person's particular life experiences. As such, the only thing you can do is allow people to voice their opinions on media and discuss. Trying to limit or shut people out because their issues aren't "real sexist problems" isn't going to get us anywhere.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
In Metroid Other M, Samus shown constantly abused by his superior while showing an incredible respect for him, although being more capable than him. Is a totally submissive and almost abusive relationship.
Someone can consider Dragon's Crown an uncomfortable experience, but women being shown with few clothes and extremely exaggerated features is not a real problem outside of those particular individuals. Metroid Other M vision is harmful and poisonous, Dragon's Crown is just entertainment aimed to a certain market.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its symptomatic of a media industry that is still very comfortable with using the sexualization of women for the pleasure of, usually, men.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That because the industry games is still consumed by, usually, men. It's a problem of the industry that is unable to involve other market and public, because as you said, is confortable with only aiming men.
Particuarly, this is a very niche game so is not a niche market that is gonna go away, games like this will still be done and should be still done, we need to balance out thing by pointing at the lack of products for other markets and sensibilties. What you said could be applied to any media industry where sexualtion of women for the pleasure of men is still done left and right, but of course those other industry managed to diversify to appealing larger groups. The existance of one market dosn't undermine other markets.
Samus's characterization in Other M is problematic - I've played it so I know first hand - but I don't see how it's a "real sexist problem" and DC isn't. If the NPC's in DC are treated as the review describes - helpless and there to titillate with no agency of their own - then I'd say that is a "real sexist problem" (for the reason The Technomancer posted as I was typing) and worth talking about.
Trying to narrow the conversation down to what is and isn't sexist - or sexist enough to talk about - helps nothing because it's an easy goal post to move and the standards change from person to person.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You can criticize a niche game for it's own merits and sexualization of women, because you feel it goes against your own tastes, but putting in the spotlight of the problem with women in the industry?
Sorry but no.
And I don't even like the game outside of the art itself.
This is what people actually want to say when they're talking about the developers being "13 year old boys" or whatever. Thanks.
This is why I frequently remind myself that you're actually all figments of my imagination!
I remember reading how Kamiya wanted glasses, guns on the legs, longer legs with prominent buttocks and smaller breasts, etc.
I'm not denying acknowledgement of Shimazaki being the main driving force in creating her appearance (as far as I know she decided on the black and red colour scheme for the outfit, the ornate suit, the beehive haircut and flowing hair, etc). Just saying that this character is being filtered through a male gaze, and shouldn't be viewed simply as a female designer's ideal sexualized female lead.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Sorry, they chose low hanging fruit and with some of the incendiary rhetoric used they came ready for a fight.
I'm not saying people can't use DC for their discussions, I'm just pointing out it's a poor choice. Most the discussion seems to be focused on the sexuality it displays, that turns it into a question of taste. Good luck proving yours is the right one.
Dragon's Crown is selling it's sex appeal clear as day for the heterosexual male. I would assume that anyone interested in it is either turned on by that or is comfortable enough to look past it. If the obvious sexuality on display makes you feel uncomfortable, are you sure that it's something you personally want to be apart of? Would you be comfortable with an equivalent game that was designed with a heterosexual woman's sexual fantasies in mind?
If so, that's fantastic! How can games geared towards this kind of sexuality, be redesigned to cater (or pander as some say) to both your desires and the men who enjoy it?
The sexuality on display isn't bad, it's just not for everyone. Both men and women feel increased levels of discomfort and reduced self esteem when presented with idealized versions of their gender. How much one can tolerate should be up to the individual I'd think, some of us quite enjoy it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What do you mean by "uncomfortable" here? My problems with it don't stem from some kind of "eww sexy lady parts" reaction, but from the fact that I find these kind of objectifying depictions disturbing for what they represent. You might have meant to include those kinds of objections in "uncomfortable", but I'm not sure
Sex and sexuality is fine. Sexual content with a gendered gaze can even be fine in moderation. But both the prominence and frequency of female objectification on various levels across genres in the medium (and to an extent in our broader culture still, although slow progress is being made on that front) is troublesome.
And no, I don't really feel the problem could be solved by "balancing out" with more female-gaze male objectification.
I'm not defending or attacking Ronin here. I was in fact just summarizing what I saw that may have been related. You asked a question in reply to Weltall's comment. Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered.
Just for the record, I myself haven't said that DC is being targeted because the developer is a niche Japanese studio. Let's not turn this into an 'us vs them' argument. There are a lot of different people with different variations on two sides of a debate.
Trying to reduce the amount of sexual female depictions is admirable, but let's be honest with ourselves here, so long as the ratio of males/females in game development is well below 1:1, that's a wash to try and accomplish. Until such time as that occurs, balancing out the cheesecake is fair, and even after such time occurs it would be fair.
What do you mean by "all of those characters"? Because really Giovanna is the only one that is even pregnant (and it's not even the central point of the character) in those R*'s characters.
My point is that you have to look at the character as a whole, before brushing it off as "just another defenseless prostitute/pregnant/XYZ character" otherwise you're doing everyone a disservice.
And personally i think this is the mentality that is really missing from the industry, not simply steering away from the 2 or 3 bullet points of contention.
It's the mentality of game creators that is wrong, and i would take Deadwood's Trixie over 1000 shallow ______ female characters that simply avoided to mention a couple of hot topic elements.
Now don't get me wrong, i get what you mean (i think) and i'm also totally on board for new female characters that explore completely new grounds, but at the end of the day i'll still take a good character over a shallow one, even if it uses, marginally, a couple of previously treaded points.
That's why i'm saying that R*'s female characters are still among the more interesting ones for me, despite some of them having again, marginally, some elements that usually are trigger warnings for lazy characterization.
Look at Abigail, from RDR, sure she was a prostitute, but i think it would be terrible to simply brush her character away for that single element, when you can look at the way she speaks, acts and reacts and see how interesting she is, she isn't just sassy, she's a loving person, but she's also rough and hardened by the wild west's life, you can't say you've seen many (if at all) characters quite like her in videogames, and i found it incredibly refreshing.
And of course before someone asks, yes, this goes for male characters too, although there is more variety in that camp, we still tend to tread the same 5 types of character over and over and over, i think instead of including 5 more stereotypes to the mix through a bucketlist, we should change the underlying mentality, starting to think more deeply about these characters in terms of writing.
This way you simply will not be able to justify all the female cast having their cleavage out in the South Pole, but it won't be a decision based on "things to avoid" criteria, it'll be a natural one, as it should be.
And i think with all their mistakes and goofness and shortcomings, this is something R* at least tries to do, so yeah i find it unfair to stick it to them in this case.
I've said before that Niko was probably the character i hated the most in gaming (before Connor came along) but i still give them props fro trying something very different, even if they didn't succeed.
not psycho
Member
What if some artists actually like drawing women?
What if they aren't all cynically trying to "use" sexualization of women to target men, but rather they have an artistic vision that includes sexualized women?
Bruce Timm draws highly sexualized, anatomically impossible comic book women. I love his art. But there is plenty of comic book style art I dislike too. The difference has nothing to do with "fairness", nothing to do with sexuality being "wrong". It only has to do with the art itself. It's good.
It seems like you are trying to talk about the art while ignoring the art. That doesn't work. Whether you like it, whether you think it has a spark of creativity, whether it is interesting to look at, all of these things matter.
Artwork depicting sexualized women is not inherently wrong at all, nor is it even necessarily symptomatic of "using" sexualization. It could be the artist drawing what they want.
Of course, it is all subjective. I find Dragon's Crown art to be enjoyable (and too exaggerated to be "sexy" in the normal sense), to have a spark of creativity, and most likely to be the artistic vision of someone who has his own company and made the game he wanted. Someone else can find it gross, and write their review accordingly. I have no problem with that.
But I'll defend Dragon's Crown because I think the art is good. It's that simple. Sexuality isn't wrong, but an overabundance of one style can have negative effects. Agreed. We can encourage the creation of more variety, or we can attack the overabundant style, or both. But if we go the attack route, we should go after the bad art. Not the good art by an artist working of his own free will in his own company. Right? So, people defend the art they think is good.
I think this is perfect.
It's totally cool to like Dragon's Crown's style. But acknowledging that there are people who do not and that it would affect their enjoyment is mature and exactly the way it should be.
Defending it is also totally cool because you respect the other person's opinion. You're not trying to censor that review by saying the person should have dropped the review and given it to someone else (who would presumably be more positive about it) and written a blog instead or whatever. The topic has strayed a bit but that was the crux of my involvement in this thread. Reading posts saying the review is invalid and should not exist. Or framing Dragon's Crown as some weird victim to a concentrated assault by the big mean bully media.
Opinions are awesome. Different opinions are awesome. Discussing our different opinions is awesome. Seeking to censor one opinion because you disagree is not.
I don't quite get why you've tried to justify the criticisms about DC by saying "please show me examples of other games doing it as well" then, and then most of the time ignroed examples that were given to you. You didn't exactly ask for games which had "sexualized" characters and were never ever once called out for it. Yes, most gmes have at some point or another, but I think lately it's getting disproportionate, so I guess DC was unfortunate to come out at a time where this becomes a gigantic issue and, and justifies the gane's artisits being called "12 years old" and stuff like that. That wasn't just that one review, Schreier -IIRC- did that on twitter as well. There's also the case of that deviantart artist calling them out too, while her page was full of "sexualized VG characters" too. It's quite ridiculous.