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[Stet]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

 

[MutFox]

No, it definitely does not, but when you're a huge fan of a medium like video games that already has most of its games telling you that you don't belong, it's discouraging to see even one more series that you have previously enjoyed tell you the same thing. And I think it's fair for female (or any other players) to voice their disappointment at not being able to have fun with everyone else because of something like this.

Just seems weird that people are ok with murdering people in horrible ways.
Not sure if you played the 1st HLM, but some of the killing is really graphic... (And there is no director yelling "Cut")
I would think this would alienate a lot of people too.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

You should read the actual article

I took a few minutes and did,...I still stand by most of my original statement.

Definitely, I can understand where she's coming from (altho I'm not a girl). When she says she's thinking about all the women of sexual violence feeling alienated by that moment, I can understand that. They might feel singled out. But to be frank, that's hypothetical speak. She can't really say how each and every one of those people will feel (altho it's natural to assume they will feel disgusted), her implication makes it seem they will feel alienated enough to disown and stop playing the game. Not every woman is the same, and not even every rape victim is the same.

Also, I'm sure there are men who will feel similar when playing this, but the closest she gets to that area is in questioning why there was no male who suffered the same as that girl. I don't know if she's in the state of mind to feel that if a man were also raped, it would justify the girl's implied rape in that scene, but realistically that wouldn't justify it any.

More than that, I still think her reaction is based only on a part of the game and not the whole. Maybe there's a moment later in the game that references that scene, or maybe where it occurs again but the roles are reversed. We don't know that yet. Even if there is, it doesn't make it "okay" that the scene with the Pig Butcher occurs, but I doubt the devs put it there thinking it would be accepted as okay by the player to begin with. It was meant to make them feel uncomfortable, and it does that....maybe a little too well for the writer.

I do take back my saying her implying it should be removed or banned or whatnot; she never actually says that. But the way she frames her reaction, genuine as it is, can't help but be construed into that thought. No one sitting there reading it is going to say "Well that's sad. Let's move on". No; developers especially, if they're reading that, they're going to try reading between the lines and figure it won't be a good gamble to touch on the topic anymore. They don't want to potentially alienate a customer, much less a large chunk of their potential base.

It's a risk all true developers take in creating stuff off the beaten path; you're going to offend some people along the way. That's part of the purpose of artistic creation. But the person offended needs to ask themselves if the creator meant to intentionally hurt them, or if their reaction is a gut one due to certain stances they have or personal events they've gone through sharing similarities to it. The instance provoking the reaction can make them question or reaffirm their position on an issue. It may also lead to losing that person as a consumer, but that's part of the risk.

 

[Mr.Monitor]

No, it definitely does not, but when you're a huge fan of a medium like video games that already has most of its games telling you that you don't belong, it's discouraging to see even one more series that you have previously enjoyed tell you the same thing. And I think it's fair for female (or any other players) to voice their disappointment at not being able to have fun with everyone else because of something like this.

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is supposed to feel "included" or okay with that scene, or really anything that's going on in the game. If anything, you just have front row seats to the show. That's cool if that's not what you want, but these emotions are the ones the game is trying to evoke.

 

[Cymbal Head]

I applaud Cara for being honest and reflective in her article.

Obviously, people have every right to be grossed out, put-off, or offended by the scene in question. They are free not to play the game if they choose, and they are free to voice their opinions and concerns. Likewise, the creators are free to make what they want, and to respond or not respond to outside criticism as they choose.

But I think that Dennaton might be doing something interesting with the way this scene is presented. Here's your player character, the one you're naturally going to share some kind of identification with, even if he's committing morally outrageous acts. You're presumably OK with killing as the player character -- that much is more or less the up-front contract you make with the game going in. Then, you get to the end of the level, and suddenly the player character is committing rape. You might be disgusted; you might be offended; you might start to think about why you find this act unacceptable, despite being OK with brutal murder. You might feel betrayed because rape wasn't part of the contract. (It might be now that the scene is being publicized so much, but let's say for the sake of the argument you don't already know about it.)

Then the director yells "CUT." Turns out it was fiction within the fiction. How do you feel now? Is rape all of a sudden OK because it was "not real"? Do your feelings of being grossed out, put-off, or offended magically dissolve because of a framing device? Or are they still there? Is committing rape acceptable when it's in a movie in a game but not when it's just in a game? I would guess that anybody who has a negative reaction to the rape scene will not be instantly appeased when they see it's not a real fictional rape. What does that say about the nature of the act? Alternatively, if you're all of a sudden cool with it, what does that say about our willingness to accept flimsy justifications for abhorrent acts?

It's possible that Dennaton are making a sharp statement about entertainment, vicarious gratification, and our conflicting impulses to just enjoy something versus truly examining what it means. It's also possible that they're just controversy-seeking blowhards who happen to make fun fucking games.

 

[Sneds]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

Rape is never self defence either.

 

[Mononoke]

I bet the extreme violence already scared off many people who otherwise might have enjoyed the game.

Yep. The violence aspect alone is a factor that would alienate some or turn them off from it.

 

[MutFox]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

There is no rape in the game.
A director yells "Cut!" after it.

Though this will give the game media attention.
Which is great.

The 1st was really fun.

 

[GameGuru59]

So you're saying there's no point in trying to educate someone or give them advice that might make their creation/vision/whatever better, or allow them to express their vision more eloquently?

And you can drop the black/white nonsense. As a black man, it's getting annoying. Yes, the most effective way is to increase minority presence in the industry, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't even try to influence and educate those currently in the industry making content.

1) In general? Yes. Especially when they could hire people that have that perspective. Of course its possible to go on fact finding trips (like Kojima's team did for MGS5) and research other cultures. But its far better to have someone there from the culture developing the game.

2) I don't think people of other cultures can as effectively express another cultures feelings on a subject. Men cannot express women's feelings as effectively as women can. Since women are perfectly capable of entering this industry themselves, I don't even think its worth men's time to try. If they (men) want to convey a woman's perspective, hire a woman. If the developers are white, and want to effectively convey a black man's perspective, the best course of action would be to hire a black man. And no I'm not dropping the black/white thing because its a perfect analogy to this man/woman thing.

Now, if you're an American developer making a game set in the mountains of Pakistan, set around the tribal-government conflicts in that region... okay, then you should do some research and try to find out more about Pakistani tribal culture. But that's only because Pakistani tribesmen aren't exactly readily accessible to American developers. Women are not.

No, what Cara and Anna are doing are saying: "You aren't doing anything half as interesting as you think you are by including rape in your game, and it's only alienating people who otherwise want to play your game. If you don't care, fine, but for those who didn't think this was an issue before, maybe they want to be aware of how people would react."

And I hope to God Devolver Digital gives zero fucks about what they say. We already have enough focus tested bullshit in this industry, we don't need anymore.

 

[inky]

No it isn't. I read and watch a lot of film and TV - it's rare that a rape is portrayed.

Certainly more than in videogames, that is for sure.

Moreover, on the rare occasions that rape does appear in media, it's generally conveyed with more gravitas than the scene in HM2.

Well, that'd be because the rape in HM2 is not 'real' rape. It's trying to put in your face the idea of rape being produced and sold, and treated as just a scene in there. The dialogue after the scene makes the whole thing pretty obvious.

 

[Jacksonlee]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

i didn't know that all videogames had to put you in the shoes of a hero that were doing "good"

 

[Can Crusher]

Good ol' 'MURICA. Blowing heads, limbs and entrails off is A-OK, but any sort of sexual content is a crime against humanity.

It's really one of those things that bugs me to this day,

 

[jay]

So is rape worse than murder?

I was banned in a Rapelay thread for discussing this topic, likely in a manner a moderator found crude and disrespectful.

 

[Stet]

i didn't know that all videogames had to put you in the shoes of a hero that were doing "good"

They don't. The important part is that they should expect a certain amount of backlash if they cross that line, and the people who offer the backlash aren't doing anything wrong.

 

[charsace]

The whole point of Hotline Miami is that you should feel disgusted by what is going on. Jacket is an unwilling participant in the first game who is corrupted and then broken by what he's doing and the death of the woman you save. Biker is a psychotic who relishes the disturbing shit he's doing, but it was hard for me not to like him even though he disgusts me.

Hotline Miami is supposed to be dark, disgusting, and depraved. They don't throw things in there just because they think its cool. Disturbing has been Cactus' modus operandi in regards to the games he puts out.

 

[Jenga]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

there's no rape tho

 

[dan2026]

Video games just need more sex in general.

Both consensual and un-consensual.

That people would get used to it and stop fucking moaning!

Its a work of fiction!

 

[Pau]

Just seems weird that people are ok with murdering people in horrible ways.
Not sure if you played the 1st HLM, but some of the killing is really graphic... (And there is no director yelling "Cut")
I would think this would alienate a lot of people too.

I have played it. Murder is not something I have to encounter everyday but as a woman you can bet that rape is something I'm constantly aware of.

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is supposed to feel "included" or okay with that scene, or really anything that's going on in the game. If anything, you just have front row seats to the show. That's cool if that's not what you want, but these emotions are the ones the game is trying to evoke.

No the game is evoking very different emotions due to gender. I'm sure that your response to the scene isn't to think about the last time you were sexually harassed and in a dangerous situation and reminding you how weak you were in it. The scene is made from a very male and callous point of view, and while I'm not saying it should be censored, it makes a game that previously was not so gendered and alienating to be very much so.

 

[Sneds]

Certainly more than in videogames, that is for sure.

Right but my point remains.

Well, that'd be because the rape in HM2 is not 'real' rape.

Well, the player is intended to believe it's rape until the twist of the director yelling "cut".

 

[Stet]

there's no rape tho

Of course not. "CUT" turns rape from a horrible moral quagmire into a big joke.

 

[Schweinehund]

This is the game where you bash people's brains out with your fists.

Why is anyone surprised again?

 

[eot]

But I think that Dennaton might be doing something interesting with the way this scene is presented. Here's your player character, the one you're naturally going to share some kind of identification with, even if he's committing morally outrageous acts. You're presumably OK with killing as the player character -- that much is more or less the up-front contract you make with the game going in. Then, you get to the end of the level, and suddenly the player character is committing rape. You might be disgusted; you might be offended; you might start to think about why you find this act unacceptable, despite being OK with brutal murder. You might feel betrayed because rape wasn't part of the contract. (It might be now that the scene is being publicized so much, but let's say for the sake of the argument you don't already know about it.)

Then the director yells "CUT." Turns out it was fiction within the fiction. How do you feel now? Is rape all of a sudden OK because it was "not real"? Do your feelings of being grossed out, put-off, or offended magically dissolve because of a framing device? Or are they still there? Is committing rape acceptable when it's in a movie in a game but not when it's just in a game? I would guess that anybody who has a negative reaction to the rape scene will not be instantly appeased when they see it's not a real fictional rape. What does that say about the nature of the act? Alternatively, if you're all of a sudden cool with it, what does that say about our willingness to accept flimsy justifications for abhorrent acts?

Good post

 

[The Lamonster]

Thanks for the spoiler, sensitive authors.

Seriously. I would have been surprised and now that is lost.

 

[Cymbal Head]

To the posters trying to somehow turn this into Violence is fine but any kind of sexual content is controversial?! LOL AMERICA:

There's a difference between prudes freaking out about tits and people advocating that rape be treated seriously in media.

Thanks for the spoiler, sensitive authors.

Seriously. I would have been surprised and now that is lost.

The real victims in all of this are the poor gamers who got the plot of HLM2 spoiled.

 

[Loomer]

I bet the extreme violence already scared off many people who otherwise might have enjoyed the game.

Might have?

Extreme violence is Hotline Miami's gameplay.

 

[Retro_]

Good ol' 'MURICA. Blowing heads, limbs and entrails off is A-OK, but any sort of sexual content is a crime against humanity.

I like how descriptive you were for the violence side, but "violent rape initiated by the player character on a female they just critically wounded" is reduced to nondescript "sexual content"

Good ol'....you?

It's really one of those things that bugs me to this day,

So wait in terms or broad generalizations about the general public, are people stupid for thinking violent video games are bad for society or are they stupid for thinking they are acceptable?

I can't even tell anymore

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Except movies, tv shows, and literature do get a lot of criticism for such things. But this is a video game forum so that's what's highlighted.

And some of the that criticism has make valid points... and some others has not, Is a touchy issue, indeed, but the discussion about despictions of rape is not black and white.

 

[Pau]

Thanks for the spoiler, sensitive authors.

Seriously. I would have been surprised and now that is lost.

Oh no, has this lessened your potential enjoyment of the game? Join the club.

 

[Psyrgery]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

 

[Sneds]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

My mind=blown.

Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

 

[Retro_]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

You can't win against this thinking apparently.

It's scary really...

 

[inky]

Well, the player is intended to believe it's rape until the twist of the director yelling "cut".

Which is obviously there to elicit a different reaction than other ways it has been portrayed, mainly, in keeping with the game's theme of the player questioning who these people are in this world, and what he is doing in it.

 

[Oersted]

Where on earth does "Nothing like Mandela and Dalai Lama" fit in here? You can't just name drop in a hope to seem more "adult" just like you can't just put sexual assault in a game to make it seem more adult.

He namedropped adult topics. I think diplomacy and change to the better is a little bit more adult than rape and murder. But videogames rather investigate the latter.

 

[faceless007]

Thanks for the spoiler, sensitive authors.

Seriously. I would have been surprised and now that is lost.

It was part of a preview build at an event attended by gaming press. If they didn't want it spoiled they shouldn't have included it in the build.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

Gaffers not reading article and responding to hyperbolic straw men.

My mind is disappointingly intact.

 

[Pau]

And some of the that criticism has make valid points... and some others has not, Is a touchy issue, indeed, but the discussion about despictions of rape is not black and white.

Of course not, but it's telling that I can think of only one rape scene in a tv show for example that wasn't incredibly gratuitious, objectifying, juvenile, or downright unnecessary.

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

Rape scene = BAN this shit.

My mind=blown.

Who's asking to ban it?

 

[Psyrgery]

My mind=blown.

Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

Of course I did, I still do not understand all the fuss about it.. It's an "implied" rape scene and even if it were "not implied" I still would not understand it.

Of course not, but it's telling that I can think of only one rape scene in a tv show for example that wasn't incredibly gratuitious, objectifying, juvenile, or downright unnecessary.


Who's asking to ban it?

Nobody, I was trying to talk about a "feeling", the reaction. English is not my main language and sometimes have trouble trying to make things clear, sorry about that.

 

[SmokyDave]

Oh, and also the implication in the first one was that you were clearing out these rooms of drug dealers because they were horrible people that needed to be eradicated. Even if it was gruesome and horrifically violent, you were doing it for the greater good (up to a point in the story).

I don't see what 'greater good' comes from raping someone.

That wasn't the implication I took from the first game. I was a scumbag killing other people for no appreciable gain. I spent a lot of the game wondering if the phone calls and other masked people were all in Jackets head and he was just murdering innocents on some drug fuelled trip. I didn't see any 'greater good'. It's not as if my kids were being held to ransom or I had a clearly defined enemy or anything.

The more I reflect on Hotline Miami, the more I'm coming to appreciate it.

 

[Sneds]

Which is obviously there to elicit a different reaction than other ways it has been portrayed, mainly, in keeping with the game's theme of the player questioning who these people are in this world, and what he is doing in it.

That feels like a leap of faith you're making there. Taking the scene in isolation, which we have to at this point, that isn't obvious at all.

Regardless, whether it fits into the game's theme or not has never been my point.

 

[Toxi]

Brains splattered all over the wall = No problem

...

My mind=blown.

 

[Retro_]

Like people realize the character shoots then rapes her right?

This isn't a case of violence vs sexual content.

It's an example of hyperviolent sexual violence that a woman had a negative reaction to and wrote an article solely about her personal reaction to it. Not drawing any conclusions at large of how other people should feel about it.(she suggests how others might feel about it, but nothing more)

All these weird broad generalizations about the values of society at large on these subjects couldn't be more fucking out of place

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Of course not, but it's telling that I can think of only one rape scene in a tv show for example that wasn't incredibly gratuitious, objectifying, juvenile, or downright unnecessary.

Yeah, but I were not talking about only TV right here.

 

[CountAntonius]

If it's not done well, then it shouldn't be in the game. If it is, then it stays. Same with the other violent acts. It's presence doesn't bother me, as long as it's done right.

I agree with you here. Same as a rape scene in a movie. they make me cringe but if they are important to the narrative so be it. This doesn't look like Custer's Revenge style idiocy. The "finish her" was a bit too playful for the subject matter however.

 

[Sneds]

Of course I did, I still do not understand all the fuss about it.. It's an "implied" rape scene and even if it were "not implied" I still would not understand it.

If you don't agree with the "fuss" then that's one thing, if you don't understand it then you're either being deliberately or blissfully ignorant. People have explained in some depth.

 

[Pau]

Like people realize the character shoots then rapes her right?

This isn't a case of violence vs sexual content.

It's an example of hyperviolent sexual violence that a woman had a negative reaction to and wrote an article solely about her personal experience. Not drawing any conclusions at large of how other people should feel about it.(she suggests how others might feel about it, but nothing more)

People are only allowed to voice negative opinions if it's about framerate issues apparently. Any other discussion is asking games with content you don't like to be banned.

 

[inky]

Regardless, whether it fits into the game's theme or not has never been my point.

Then what is? Because from what I read of you, you feel it is not being taken seriously enough, but I feel the way the characters participating in that scene behave and talk it absolutely is, and it is up to the player to realize that.

 

[mullet2000]

Ug, I'm sure it's been said a million times before, but this scene is a parody of how trashy horror movies and the like were at that time. It's plain as day and nothing truly graphic is even being depicted. The entire point of the scene is for the playing to see how tasteless it is. That's the point.

Honestly, I was very surprised this didn't blow up 2 months ago when the gameplay video was first released.

 

[Psyrgery]

If you don't agree with the "fuss" then that's one thing, if you don't understand it then you're either being deliberately or blissfully ignorant. People have explained in some depth.

Well, then I don't agree with it.

Happy now?

 

[Sneds]

Then what is?

Whether it fits into the theme or not, the scene is a flippant portrayal of rape that makes women in particular feel uneasy.

Because from what I read of you, you feel it is not being taken seriously enough, but I feel the way the characters participating in that scene behave and talk it absolutely is, and it is up to the player to realize that.

Then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. "Finish her" is not a serious way to portray rape by any standard.

 

[parazen]

You can defend rape as entertainment.

You can be a man.

Pick one.