She's not calling for it to be banned. And you sound more offended than Cara Ellison.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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She's not calling for it to be banned. And you sound more offended than Cara Ellison.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Oh boy, here we go again...
Look, no one likes rape. Not if they're sane, at least. But I really get the feeling there's some heavy double standards going on here. First off, if the character were a male, would this even be an issue? Sorry I had to go there, but that's just the start of it.
I think the bigger problem is chastising the developers, as if they should be banned from even including a rape-themed event in their game. If they included it there to somehow encourage the act itself, as if to advocate its engagement, then yes, they need to be called out on that. But the way I see it, they have the scene there as a means to spark a sort of internal thought on moral in the player, and to postulate the brutality of the act. Since the average player is not going to think of an issue like rape out of the blue along those lines on their own, it's helpful for something they're engaging in to bring the topic to the forefront every once in a while.
Also, it's ironic with all these journalists calling shame on HLM2 for this, failing to see that their actions are holding games back from being seen as a "mature" medium to outsiders. You have films that deal with rape, sodomy, torture, race, etc., and altho there are individuals who feel uneasy about their existence, by and large you don't see the community around them damning those pieces into oblivion. Same with music. But you see this happen with games all the time.
The last time I clearly recall it occurring, was with Resident Evil 5. Capcom got all this flack about it being racist, when many of those claims was because it was in Africa and it featured zombies. It's as if those individuals expected Africa to be zombie-immune for some reason (not even going into the history of voodoo there), but to an astute observer, all the hoopla was painting a quite nastier picture.
These were people pulling a lot of claims out of their asses to accuse the game of racism when, at most, it had some ignorance here and there. A lot of people viewing the game through their own eyes and preconceived notions of racism, subjugating their beliefs and paranoia onto the game itself, that's what lead to many of the outcries. And it's a shame; Capcom's probably been scared straight out of setting another RE game in Africa ever again, ironically working against the wishes of advocates hoping for more cultural diversity in video games :S.
All the fervor over HLM2 regarding this rape scene isn't 100% the same, I get that, but the parallels are there. In the end, unless those crying foul can take the time to see that moment from the developer's POV, instead of automatically postulating their feelings and convictions upon it without that understanding, all it's going to cause is other devs to fret over any implications of rape in their own games. So many future chances to spark introspective thought and conversation, to reflect on one's moral compass, sullied and thrown away because a few over-reactionary types had to go with knee-jerk reactions.
I guess for those sorts, if it's "out of sight, out of mind", no harm can be done.
Look, no one likes rape. Not if they're sane, at least. But I really get the feeling there's some heavy double standards going on here. First off, if the character were a male, would this even be an issue? Sorry I had to go there, but that's just the start of it.
I think the bigger problem is chastising the developers, as if they should be banned from even including a rape-themed event in their game. If they included it there to somehow encourage the act itself, as if to advocate its engagement, then yes, they need to be called out on that. But the way I see it, they have the scene there as a means to spark a sort of internal thought on moral in the player, and to postulate the brutality of the act. Since the average player is not going to think of an issue like rape out of the blue along those lines on their own, it's helpful for something they're engaging in to bring the topic to the forefront every once in a while.
Also, it's ironic with all these journalists calling shame on HLM2 for this, failing to see that their actions are holding games back from being seen as a "mature" medium to outsiders. You have films that deal with rape, sodomy, torture, race, etc., and altho there are individuals who feel uneasy about their existence, by and large you don't see the community around them damning those pieces into oblivion. Same with music. But you see this happen with games all the time.
The last time I clearly recall it occurring, was with Resident Evil 5. Capcom got all this flack about it being racist, when many of those claims was because it was in Africa and it featured zombies. It's as if those individuals expected Africa to be zombie-immune for some reason (not even going into the history of voodoo there), but to an astute observer, all the hoopla was painting a quite nastier picture.
These were people pulling a lot of claims out of their asses to accuse the game of racism when, at most, it had some ignorance here and there. A lot of people viewing the game through their own eyes and preconceived notions of racism, subjugating their beliefs and paranoia onto the game itself, that's what lead to many of the outcries. And it's a shame; Capcom's probably been scared straight out of setting another RE game in Africa ever again, ironically working against the wishes of advocates hoping for more cultural diversity in video games :S.
All the fervor over HLM2 regarding this rape scene isn't 100% the same, I get that, but the parallels are there. In the end, unless those crying foul can take the time to see that moment from the developer's POV, instead of automatically postulating their feelings and convictions upon it without that understanding, all it's going to cause is other devs to fret over any implications of rape in their own games. So many future chances to spark introspective thought and conversation, to reflect on one's moral compass, sullied and thrown away because a few over-reactionary types had to go with knee-jerk reactions.
I guess for those sorts, if it's "out of sight, out of mind", no harm can be done.
They couldn't be more wrong.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
If this took place in a film the filmmakers would be applauded for conveying the brutality of humanity in such a raw form. I'm not defending the scene (in fact I want to reserve judgement until I see/play it) but it seems like there shouldn't be a double standard when it comes to art.
GameGuru59
Banned
I have no problem with any kind of violence being portrayed anywhere in any medium. Attempting to limit expression is limiting the art. You don't have to like it, but let the artists create and you're free to criticize their creations.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
You should read the actual article
You're right about how it will always be terrible, but is it necessarily about it being viewed in a positive light, and not about it having its place? If it can be used as a means to an end, does it it not have its place among all the other terrible acts people commit in games? If the game wants you to despise your character, is it not an effective way of accomplishing that? I don't know if I'd want to play that game, much less make that game.
FrontalMonk
Banned
Speaking of knee-jerk reactions...
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
You should also read the article
faceless007
Member
I don't know, it doesn't seem to have had that effect on the audience given the number of people who apparently still really want to play it.
Maybe they're just masochists who like games telling them what awful people they are.
Art is just a word, we are talking about interactive entertainment here. A medium and an industry focused on games, playing, and simulation. It makes it very different from a book or a movie.
eot
Banned
The line was crossed ages ago. Games glorify violence, they fetichize weapons, people have just accepted it as normal. It's absurd to suggest that most violence in games is of the sort that we would find acceptable in real life.
I agree, in the end it's subjective. But really, I personally think the answer to "why people are disconnected from all the killings?" is not supposed to be as complicated as you make it. Why millions of people are playing gta games, killing old ladies and doing horrible things? Why are people playing as Mario, killing hundreds of poor koopas and turtles that did nothing wrong?
Because it's fun. I personally prefer games that go beyond "fun" and have depth. But Hotline miami feels a lot like an old school shooter similar to gta 2, and I don't remember people questioning their morality when they played gta 2 at the time. Do you think Hotline miami's success comes from more than it's great gameplay? Do you think the morality issues pulled in more people to play it?
That's an interesting discussion indeed. So many varied opinions.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
No, thats my point. He just kills him for the sake of it.
The article is an introspective look at how the game made the player feel. You just assumed the worst because lol I dunno.
Zombie James
Banned
In context the scene isn't tasteless at all. It's a scene in a film and no virtual characters are actually getting raped, and neither are you "encouraged to rape a female character." Sensationalist bullshit that only served to spoil the fucking game.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
A LOT because the books are written by someone who has like almost no firsthand knowledge of BDSM or kink and are full of idiotic fallacies because the author doesn't know a god damn thing. BDSM/kink aren't inherently unfeminist. They aren't comparable to rape because they require tons of communication and consent.
Right, they just make it seem like it is then SURPRISE! it was a movie all along ha ha ha isn't that funny? The scene is sensationalist bullshit, and it certainly spoils any chance of me buying the game.
freenudemacusers
Member
sensationalist bullshit? where? you mean this thread?
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
It's funny how the article is the kind of honest introspection caused by actually playing the game that people who aren't reading it apparently wanted it to be.
DexterPepper
Member
I think that point is better made with the briefcase guy. All your mission mentions of it is "The target is a briefcase. Discretion is of essence." I think he even automatically dies even if you just knock him down.
Also, isn't the homeless guy the one who "teaches you how to kill" in the very, very beginning? Although I have no idea if that was real or not.
And people should be allowed to scrutinize those scenes. I personally disagree that certain themes and subject matters should be off-limits in games because it makes me uncomfortable or disturbs me.
People are free to have their own set of standards on what they want to play. I just hate the idea of labeling some pieces art as "problematic" because it falls outside of your comfort zone.
Media isn't some binary thing where being disgusted by something means the work as a whole is negative. I may think a character is disgusting, but that doesn't mean the character is poorly developed or the way the even happened didn't make sense in context.
You have a right to be disgusted by these things. I believe you should be disgusted by these things, but to bring it up in the context of the tropes vs women, you are trying to bridge the feeling you have when playing the game with the game itself being a sexist game.
It's like looking at Huckleberry Finn on a surface level and saying that is a racist book. I feel like a lot of times there is a misinterpretation of the intent of works and the surface level of what something is doing. I just disagree with the notion that there are certain topics that games shouldn't touch or that should be avoided because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
There are certain moments in the Last of Us where I felt uncomfortable. I didn't want to do the things ND forced you to go through. They forced you to kill. They shouted things at you like "You Animal." They made you hear the moans of the tortured, trapped infected that I had to kill. That game made me think about killing in games. It made me feel like shit.
I was wrong to invoke censorship earlier, but my feelings still stand on being against the idea that sexist tropes and sexist characterizations existing in the world of games means projects that have misogynistic themes should referenced as part of the overall problem of sexism in video games. It feels like people are saying that having specific themes at all in games is a negative in itself. You have a right to believe that, but I disagree that those things should be off-limits.
Edit: I would also like to add that I think the original article was not a surface level analysis. She made points about the way the game took to long to jolt you out of the scene.
Me too. But this doesn't sound as though it is 'exploring' an adult theme in any sort of meaningful way.
MightyHedgehog
Member
That's going to depend on the player/viewer and the creator of the game. So far, from what I've played and seen, there hasn't been a single instance in which rape or torture was acceptable or added something to the experience which I think would be better kept intact rather than changed or excised from final release. Most games just don't afford players enough player agency to act in a manner they would or could if they felt so inclined. No, you cannot express happiness or reciprocate a cinematic hug, but you can kill most accurately and easily. Rape and torture moments in games are stupid until someone figures out how to do it right, if that's possible at all, but is it even wanted or desired given how limited a game's control and player capability is despite how real it might feel or look? For now, if you say an enemy target for the player is a rapist/pedophile, that's probably about as much information as is necessary. No need to try and shock with pretend rape scenes in an attempt to stir discussion that could happen without.
I'm pretty sure the developers did a lot to try and drive my (their) point home. I'd post some pics of the ending that also lend credence to the argument, but I'm not trying to spoil anyone.
I completely agree that a game, regardless of content, should be fun to play with good core mechanics and that liking it doesn't have any direct correlation to who you are and your quality as a person, but that doesn't mean the game can't ask questions or make statements. What's the alternative? That simulated rape, hyper-violence, and the literal glorification of said violence are just a skin to push the limits of artistic expression?
Now that, that would be tired angle-bullshit.
Yes I know! I was speaking in general though, but I did address this game specifically in an edit to that post. My apologies. Personally, I feel torn on it. My biggest issue with depicting such a depraved act in any medium, is that it needs to be done in a way that isn't exploitative or in bad taste. For me that's: "Making light of it (ie. making it a joke)", "Empowering the audience" - or in this case the player by raping someone - so giving the act a positive meaning)". I also would take issue if a game ever allowed the player to rape someone (ie. it was an actual gameplay mechanic.)
The reason I'm torn on this though is because, I accept that in some stories, the main character can be a bad guy. That a story could have a main protagonist be a rapist (or someone that engages in such a act), and it not be glorified. Even if it makes the audience uncomfortable, I don't think that should be forbidden to do that in a story telling medium.
If that makes sense?
Also, sometimes in stories, you will follow the perspective of someone that isn't necessarily the main character. This can be done in flashbacks, or a retelling of an event. In the case of this game (I believe), the player is playing an event that had happened.
spacemonkeynation
Member
I don't know the full context, so I can't really decide which side I'm on. The first Hotline Miami was extremely self aware. The entire game seemed to be trying to convey the horridness of the violence, in spite of said violence being depicted in a very gamey way. That was sort of the point of the entire game. IF this is the same, then what's the problem?
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
It's not actually happening. It's simulated in the sense that it is part of the in-game director's brutal and false interpretation of what happened during Jacket's original rampage. The director mentions filming the scene where Jacket carries her to his car afterwards (which is the only part that really happens in the first game), which makes it fairly clear he's aping the true events as they transpired in the first game while adding a sadistic edge including things that never happened. The post scene commentary by the director makes it clear it's completely self aware and is in fact criticizing the portrayal of such things directly.
It's okay to be offended by the content, but the developers seem fully aware and in control of what they are going for here and I can't say there exists legitimate criticism of what they are doing.
It's okay to be offended by the content, but the developers seem fully aware and in control of what they are going for here and I can't say there exists legitimate criticism of what they are doing.
The view on what is adult is incredibly narrow-minded in videogames. Its rapists, murderer and soldiers. Nothing like Mandela and Dalai Lama. Its tbh quite pathetic.
GameGuru59
Banned
So I read the article and my feelings are the same. Art is expression. As an artist, I feel its my right and duty to express myself as I see fit, without care for what society thinks about it. Why should Devolver tailor their game to what is politically correct? I thought we were tired of focus tested games developed by sales committees.
Secondly, if women like Cara and Ana Sarkeesian want more positive portrayals of women in games, then they should make (or encourage other women to make) their own games. I'm African American, and it bothers me that I don't see more frequent portrayals of AA's in games (we finally got around to being sidekicks now!) but I don't go around asking white game developers to put black characters in their games. That would essentially be corralling their artistic expression. Similarly, I don't think women should expect male game developers to give to shits about women think of their games when women aren't involved in the development of the game (and yes, I know there are women in the game industry, I'm speaking generally). If you want games developed to your likings, either get in the industry yourself, or encourage others to do so; its never been easier with Game Maker (the program behind Hotline) and Unity. But don't try to curtail the expression of others' artistic visions.
Secondly, if women like Cara and Ana Sarkeesian want more positive portrayals of women in games, then they should make (or encourage other women to make) their own games. I'm African American, and it bothers me that I don't see more frequent portrayals of AA's in games (we finally got around to being sidekicks now!) but I don't go around asking white game developers to put black characters in their games. That would essentially be corralling their artistic expression. Similarly, I don't think women should expect male game developers to give to shits about women think of their games when women aren't involved in the development of the game (and yes, I know there are women in the game industry, I'm speaking generally). If you want games developed to your likings, either get in the industry yourself, or encourage others to do so; its never been easier with Game Maker (the program behind Hotline) and Unity. But don't try to curtail the expression of others' artistic visions.
No it doesn't. Why should movies and books have unlimited (or less limited) expression and games moreso?
I agree with you. Both actions create different emotional emotions for different people. I understand if she felt like she was being manipulated in that way.
I am not sure where I fall in this argument, but I think the fact that games are interactive whereas largely those other mediums are not needs to be taken into consideration.
Reading what happens during the end of Snake Eater and playing it for yourself are two wildly different experiences.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Did you really read the article?
because I don't think she ever calls for censorship or anything. This whole article is just her personal response to the media.
I don't see the problem.
If the game was just rape everywhere all the time,
then I don't think it would be a fun game.
But the way it's presented, it's a one off,
and it's even fake in the game.
So it's actually fake times two.
Fake in the game and fake that it's a game you're playing.
Plus, you're committing genocide in the game too...
No one seems to have a problem with this.
Feels like we're back in the 90's,
when blood in games was something that even caused debate.
If the game was just rape everywhere all the time,
then I don't think it would be a fun game.
But the way it's presented, it's a one off,
and it's even fake in the game.
So it's actually fake times two.
Fake in the game and fake that it's a game you're playing.
Plus, you're committing genocide in the game too...
No one seems to have a problem with this.
Feels like we're back in the 90's,
when blood in games was something that even caused debate.
Cara Ellison explains why she doesn't feel it is the same in her article.
People saying "well you kill people in the game, so what's wrong with raping people too?" are largely missing the point. I think it's fair to say that we've become desensitised to violence. Do we WANT to become desensitised to rape? Do we want to live in a society within which people aren't shocked by FLIPPANT depictions of rape in video games?
freenudemacusers
Member
I just had that exact thought. We want games to be considered art, but we don't want games to elicit a visceral, emotional response from a player and we certainly don't want people talking about their visceral, emotional response.
Do you realize how short-sighted this thinking is? Is a product containing 99% white men really being fully artistically expressed, or is it a product of exclusion, intentional or otherwise?
Zombie James
Banned
Look, I know this is a sensitive issue and I completely understand that some people are disgusted and offended by it, and I'm not going to say they shouldn't be. I just think that in context the original article is being sensationalist saying that you're "encouraged to rape." In the video in the OP I don't see the words "Finish Her" like the article says, it says "Hold mouse over enemy." It's a scene in a film being shot and no one is actually getting raped, although - again - I can still understand that it's enough for people to get offended by.
I'm just going to stop here, I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers over something so sensitive.
Really, we're not allowed to criticize an industry that has plenty of barriers of entry for people of our gender? Come on now.
I'm an artist too, and I know that artistic expression can be code for: "I'm a lazy bastard who doesn't think too much about my art or it's implications." If you defended yourself with "artistic expression" in an art critique you'd be laughed out of the classroom. Art is not only about the creator, but the way people respond to it. It's a conversation. It's funny because this argument thinks it's against censorship, but really it's asking for censorship from the other side.
Kind of funny that people focus on the five seconds of moralizing in Hotline Miami. It was totally throwaway. Similarly, people that would be otherwise offended by a rape scene will give it a free pass as long as players can build their own "the developers are showing how horrible rape is" narrative around it.
Instead of just treating it as part of the experience they're having, even! lol
Instead of just treating it as part of the experience they're having, even! lol
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I honestly think the author's reaction is fine. The adjusted thread title shows this as it is a lot less inflammatory and stupid than the original.
I think in fact the writer's reaction was likely expected alongside a large spectrum of reactions the developers intended to provoke.
This is an interesting point that I didn't think of before. When it comes to killing in games, its a straight forward action that might take a second to complete. In the case of most shooters, it requires some short sequence of actions from the player to carry out(Jump and land on head, aim and shoot, etc.). I'm certain I would never want to carry out the act of rape with any sort of mechanical depth.
DexterPepper
Member
I can't help but feel like the "Do you like hurting other people?" point of the first game would have been driven home harder if there was actually any significant choice. SpecOps (from what I've heard... still on my backlog) seemed to do this better.
I think that's the case here as well. The "Finish Her" prompt doesn't sound like it gives you enough information to really make a choice. Executions are a major part of the gameplay, not to mention the phrase's connections to MK fatalities.
I think that's the case here as well. The "Finish Her" prompt doesn't sound like it gives you enough information to really make a choice. Executions are a major part of the gameplay, not to mention the phrase's connections to MK fatalities.
Where on earth does "Nothing like Mandela and Dalai Lama" fit in here? You can't just name drop in a hope to seem more "adult" just like you can't just put sexual assault in a game to make it seem more adult.
Cameron122
Member
I applauded the first game for making me feel uncomfortable commiting digital murder.
Before we tackle the issue of rape we should tackle thr issue of gender roles and ask does pigman identify as a man or as a woman, 'it has to be male since he rapes a woman!' excrpt 'he' doesnt he simply acts out a role in a movie, could still identify as a woman, and if the rape wasnt a movie then we would be drawn into the topic of sexuality, could 'he' identify as a woman, be violent, and homosexual?
quite possibly.
Contraversy inception.
quite possibly.
Contraversy inception.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Why can't people understand there's a difference between watching a character in a movie or book, and playing as a character in a video game?
You'd think people who enjoy this medium so much would understand that they are completely different experiences that have to be approached in completely different ways.
Well considering it completely pulled her out of the game and the character, I'm not sure it does. Considering Hotline Miami's narrative(based on the posts I've observed praising it in this thread) seems based around criticizing the player for enjoying this shit. Doesn't quite hit its mark when the player feels completely disconnected from the character and their actions.
The choice is to continue or stop playing, thats kinda the point.
I think it's okay for things to exist that are fucked up. Because things that are fucked up exist.
I saw 'A Serbian Film' and it's pretty fucked up. Like, difficult to watch tier of fucked up. Should that movie not exist? I didn't enjoy it at all. But I wouldn't say that it should never have been made. A lot of people obviously thought it should have got made, or else it wouldn't have had actors or crew, small as I'm sure they were.
I saw 'A Serbian Film' and it's pretty fucked up. Like, difficult to watch tier of fucked up. Should that movie not exist? I didn't enjoy it at all. But I wouldn't say that it should never have been made. A lot of people obviously thought it should have got made, or else it wouldn't have had actors or crew, small as I'm sure they were.
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