I'm indifferent to be honest.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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I'm indifferent to be honest.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I meant that I can't think of a rape scene in most medium that doesn't make me roll my eyes In response to how terribly written, unnecessary, objectifying, and juvenile it is. But that's a bit off topic.
faceless007
Member
People are just so sensitive and easily faux-outraged these days. You can't even write a thoughtful, introspective piece about a personal reaction to a game's disturbing content without a bunch of easily offended people getting all outraged, taking things out of context, and trying to silence the author. They're just looking for an excuse to be outraged at games journalists because that's the trendy thing right now.
This threat of censorship of opinion pieces has got to stop. If you don't like it, don't read it.
This threat of censorship of opinion pieces has got to stop. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Too subtle?
I have close family members who have been victims of sexual assault, so rape as a theme is something I'm less comfortable with, in all forms of media as opposed to gratuitous violence, something that has not personally affected me. One makes me uncomfortable, the other doesn't even make me raise an eyelash. But that's my personal hang-up because of my life experience, videogames should be allowed to pursue more adult themes and I'll simply avoid said games or be uncomfortable while I play them if they bother me.
I think any game should be allowed to be made, but whatever backlash they experience is IMO fair game. That's freedom of speech.
Which is understandable. It should make men feel uneasy as well, and I think that is what it was going for. It's certainly not a lighthearted or humorous scene.
In the video I saw there was no such "finish her" text. And it was made perfectly clear that it was a fictional scene, contrary to what Cara says.
Wow, I find it weird how close minded some gamers are and just want to justify the sequence as "oh hey they were filming a movie! Teh Directorzzz said 'CUT'!" as a way to say that controversy is off the table. There is even debate to this day about the significance of rape in "The Fountainhead" by bringing up if Objectivism is inherently sexist when Objectivists claim that the rape scene in that book was desired by the woman.
If you are going to include such a controversial topic in a video game you need to realize that a) it will spark controversy, b) people will be put off c) there could be a backlash, it's not unheard of for people to be disgusted or put off by controversial subject matter.
I like how when people get up in arms about issues of hyper-violence portrayal there is the one side saying "How about all the sex? huh? why don't you talk about that instead!" And then when sex comes up "How about the all the hyper-violence, why don't you talk about that instead?"
Rape is "hyper-violence". It's not a consentual act. It's a forcibly violent act. If you have such issues with games like CoD or GTA, don't buy them, and say why. That is what these people are doing here. They don't like the subject matter, and have expressed why they would not buy the game.
Then again these last 2 days I've witnessed "Gays don't need a gaming convention, they should just shut up!" and "Rape is a-ok when its fictional, shut up if you think differently!" on NeoGAF.
If you are going to include such a controversial topic in a video game you need to realize that a) it will spark controversy, b) people will be put off c) there could be a backlash, it's not unheard of for people to be disgusted or put off by controversial subject matter.
I like how when people get up in arms about issues of hyper-violence portrayal there is the one side saying "How about all the sex? huh? why don't you talk about that instead!" And then when sex comes up "How about the all the hyper-violence, why don't you talk about that instead?"
Rape is "hyper-violence". It's not a consentual act. It's a forcibly violent act. If you have such issues with games like CoD or GTA, don't buy them, and say why. That is what these people are doing here. They don't like the subject matter, and have expressed why they would not buy the game.
Then again these last 2 days I've witnessed "Gays don't need a gaming convention, they should just shut up!" and "Rape is a-ok when its fictional, shut up if you think differently!" on NeoGAF.
Cymbal Head
Banned
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Spehornoob
Member
So all those movies and literature that depict rape. If you enjoy those, you're not a man?
No. The fun comes from the fast paced, unforgiving gameplay. The violence is a stylistic device, but it is not essential for the gameplay. Gameplay wise there is no need for the enemies head to explode.
Yeah, and I've had a discussion with those folks. Doesn't mean I can't call out other shit like people being particularly obtuse about the subject.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
There's a big difference between "rape as entertainment" and "entertainment that portrays rape," although the statement you quoted is oversimplified.
mocolostrocolos
Member
So, it's legit to massacre twelve guys or so but you can't rape a girl in a videogame.
Awww yeah.
Awww yeah.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Entertainment =/= entire artistic mediums
Besides memoirs, no not really. But that says more about the general quality of the work than anything else really.
Cymbal Head
Banned
Well...I kinda tried to. See my long post above.
Unfortunately, it probably is.
Kinda torn here. I can see why this makes people uncomfortable, but Hotline Miami was always designed to make you feel disgusted at yourself for the wanton violence you commit.
I also think they may crossed a line for some people here though. The murder presented in the first one, as sickening as it was was also pretty cartoony and unrealistic. But sexual assault is depressingly common, and is also depressingly always a real danger, so...
I also think they may crossed a line for some people here though. The murder presented in the first one, as sickening as it was was also pretty cartoony and unrealistic. But sexual assault is depressingly common, and is also depressingly always a real danger, so...
But the way it makes men and women feel uneasy is very different. I doubt the reaction that Cara Ellison, and other women, have had is the intended response. And I hope that it wasn't.
I'm just going from what was written in the preview.
Spehornoob
Member
And what's this one? I ask because the series is known for depicting extreme acts, and not necessarily to positively entertain (as in, elicit a positive reaction from the player). If it's making a point, then entertainment is not the only potential goal of the moment, right?
GameGuru59
Banned
Rape isn't taken seriously because men generally don't have a fear of it. There's a reason the rape problem in the military blew up just now, its because we have more women in congress than ever before. Similarly, if women want to affect their portrayal in video games, they need to get in the industry and change them. I'm against curtailing artistic visions in ANY case. Not just video games. Hotline is a violent video game. Rape is violence. The two go together and it is thus artistically relevant to the game (rather than gratuitous, in which case I would criticize it).
Not going to go into how the only positive option here is 'being a man'... yeah, I'll avoid it.
But let's look at a film like Boys Don't Cry. It won a truckload of awards and isn't considered trash.
There's difference in depicting rape in entertainment and using rape as entertainment.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Um... I haven't played Hotline Miami but I've seen videos. The violence appears to me to be over-the-top, cartoony and border-line ridiculous, rather than gritty and realistic. Is that a fair assessment?
I disagree about that one. Beserk was absolutely terribe with it. At least the movie I saw. I haven't read the manga or watched the tv series but that's one of the first examples that comes to mind of how unnecessary and juvenile rape scenes can be. But if you guys honestly want my opinion on every rape scene, that's best left to PM and not this topic probably.
What a ridiculous viewpoint. I find this just as bizarre as 'it's OK, it was written by a woman'.
Also, it's 'rape in entertainment', not 'rape as entertainment'.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Here you go
I hope no is seriously defending rape AS entertainment, but some people feel devs have the right to portray rape, or in this case portray a portrayal of rape; some feel they do as long as it meets some standard, some feel they do not have the right at all, and some (including myself) feel they are free to portray it, but should understand and consider the criticism received when they do.
Cymbal Head
Banned
If these two posters aren't male, I'll eat my animal mask and/or biker helmet.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
People can be disgusted and repulsed by it, because I think that's what the creators intended. It's Hotline Miami. People are free to dislike it all they want and that's fine-- As long as they aren't trying to bully creators into changing their vision.
Huh?
Huh?
And I'm going by that and the way it is shown in the game. It's fine if you don't want to watch it, but it is clear we can't keep discussing something you have not seen then because I am basing my opinion in the connection of both.
Spehornoob
Member
That doesn't answer my point. The brutal sexual violence of Boys Don't Cry (great film) is used to make a point. Why is it such an "out there" idea that Hotline Miami could make a point using the same type of topic?
That's a really sad indictment of men. As a man, I would hope that it's possible to be more sensitive to the feelings of others and aware of problems that don't affect me directly. What you've said is a bit of a get out of jail free card for men in the video games industry.
You're right - men don't take rape seriously enough and that's something men need to work on and change themselves.
I don't think it's a complete solution, but more women being involved in game production would make a large impact.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Caska's scene is like the definition of the objectification of women in rape. What Griffith does to her is entirely motivated to spite Guts.
and afterwards she completely loses her personality so Miura doesn't even have to deal with writing how the character interprets the event. She just becomes a burden for Guts to bear and a reminder of his hatred for Griffith.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
freenudemacusers
Member
Games fundamentally contain design and are intrinsically tied to design. If it controlled or performed like doodoo nobody would care about this game at all. It seems like an error to say art only cares about the creator, since the point of art is usually communicating an idea, and sometimes, people discuss the validity or strength of these ideas. Which is what is happening right now, despite a lot of weird TLDR dismissals.
I imagine you're right but that needs to be in addition to, not instead of, some serious reflection by men.
TyrantGuardian
Member
I hope the developer sticks to his guns. While the scene is (presumably) completely despicable and makes people feel like complete garbage for playing it, I also feel that is the entire point of the game. I strongly doubt the game glorifies rape or anything like that, it's just a position that should make anyone uncomfortable, which in my book a game has every right to do.
Honestly, it's a bit jarring how games are seemingly not allowed to push these limits while other media is pretty much expected to. I guess the interactive nature of games makes it a different case in that sense, but still. It just seems to be that old "games are supposed to be fun! (and nothing more)" mentality that colors people's expectations. While Hotline Miami clearly is a game that features aspects of entertainment (high score-based gameplay etc) it doesn't, in my opinion, disqualify it from being social commentary/art/whatever simultaneously. And if viewed from the latter perspective, I honestly see no issue with the game exploring such concepts, however displeasurable they may be to the player.
Edit: Though I do think the game should feature some sort of disclaimer about containing rape scenes at some point, in case a victim/someone who for other reasons doesn't want to come across such scenes would like to skip it without being blindsided by it. Maybe, at least.
Honestly, it's a bit jarring how games are seemingly not allowed to push these limits while other media is pretty much expected to. I guess the interactive nature of games makes it a different case in that sense, but still. It just seems to be that old "games are supposed to be fun! (and nothing more)" mentality that colors people's expectations. While Hotline Miami clearly is a game that features aspects of entertainment (high score-based gameplay etc) it doesn't, in my opinion, disqualify it from being social commentary/art/whatever simultaneously. And if viewed from the latter perspective, I honestly see no issue with the game exploring such concepts, however displeasurable they may be to the player.
Edit: Though I do think the game should feature some sort of disclaimer about containing rape scenes at some point, in case a victim/someone who for other reasons doesn't want to come across such scenes would like to skip it without being blindsided by it. Maybe, at least.
The visual style is cartoony but I wouldn't say the violence itself is. If it were made with realistic 3d-graphics it would probaably not been made or banned in most countries.
In fact the developers said that they could go the extra mile due to the pixelated graphics. Also the game makes it quite clear how awful your actions really are in a number of different ways.
TheRedSnifit
Member
The difference is that there aren't many people who walk around in fear of having their "brains splattered all over the wall", whereas 1 in 6 women are victims of attempted or succesful rape in the US, not to mention countries where women are held in very low regard.
And this isn't just because a woman's involved. People flipped out over Blacklist's torture sequence, remember?
Lets be honest, murder in vidja games are more acceptable because we're more desensitized to it. So many video games contain killing that it's odd when a game that could have it doesn't.
Add-in the regularity with which people are killed in movies and books and it's almost boring.
Anyone remember City of Heroes and when they tried saying you only knock out people as opposed to killing? Mainly in reaction to people saying killed? Granted it didn't help that people fell to the ground and stayed immobile, but the reaction to that comment was hilarious and pointed out people almost expect to kill.
Rape appears much less and is a pretty heavy topic when it does, even in movies and books. We're less desensitized to it so people react to it.
If anyone actually stops to think about it, it's completely ridiculous. Both are bad. Hell, it can be argued murder is worse since it's not like you can heal from that (and I'm sure even that comment would provoke an argument).
In essence we should be as revolted by murder as much as rape in the games, equally, but desensitization is an amazing thing.
So that's why people react like they do. Rape is rare (in games) so it strikes a nerve and we get long threads like this.
Add-in the regularity with which people are killed in movies and books and it's almost boring.
Anyone remember City of Heroes and when they tried saying you only knock out people as opposed to killing? Mainly in reaction to people saying killed? Granted it didn't help that people fell to the ground and stayed immobile, but the reaction to that comment was hilarious and pointed out people almost expect to kill.
Rape appears much less and is a pretty heavy topic when it does, even in movies and books. We're less desensitized to it so people react to it.
If anyone actually stops to think about it, it's completely ridiculous. Both are bad. Hell, it can be argued murder is worse since it's not like you can heal from that (and I'm sure even that comment would provoke an argument).
In essence we should be as revolted by murder as much as rape in the games, equally, but desensitization is an amazing thing.
So that's why people react like they do. Rape is rare (in games) so it strikes a nerve and we get long threads like this.
It's one thing to murder something in a game. Especially in scenarios where they, too, are trying to kill you.
It's another thing entirely to torture a person. Even someone who is trying to kill you. It's seriously taboo in our culture.
Rape is a form of torture.
So, in my opinion, the idea of raping someone in a video game is extremely unsettling and gross, even in the context of mass murder.
It's another thing entirely to torture a person. Even someone who is trying to kill you. It's seriously taboo in our culture.
Rape is a form of torture.
So, in my opinion, the idea of raping someone in a video game is extremely unsettling and gross, even in the context of mass murder.
I can definitely see what you're talking about, when I think about it more in-depth. Probably best I don't speak on this subject, don't think I have the necessary perspective and knowledge to tackle this mindfully
DexterPepper
Member
So much so that the devs "toned it down" by having the Director call cut. That and the fact that it's a preview build suggest to me they knew it would be controversial, even for HM.
Pot of boiling water over someone's head as an execution. Executing the first heavy enemy in the game has you gouge out his eyes.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Like I say, I haven't played the game before. Any examples?
Obviously, this one hasn't come out yet, but I'm trying to get my head around the context of the scene and whether it was a case of escalation or whether there is a point to it.
GameGuru59
Banned
Awfully tough to do that when there aren't many women in the industry. Congress has become more empathetic of women because A) women are in congress more than ever and B) congressmen are around congresswomen more often now. Its hard to be empathetic of someone you don't have regular contact with in a working setting.
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