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[Mister Negative]

Wasn't the original Hotline just a commentary on how pointless lots of killing in video games is? How is this not an extension of that?

 

[UrbanRats]

There was no rape in the game. There wasn't even implied rape, because it was set up as a movie scene. And to be honest, I've seen PG-13 movies that have gone farther with implied rape. They pulled their punches here, so the controversy feels manufactured. It seems like people are conversing as if there was a rape depicted because people want to have this conversation, and not because the scene in the game was particularly shocking or noteworthy.

Not every critique has to be aimed at stirring up controversy, especially when the author is being fairly honest about it being based on a very personal perception.
Besides, the discussion itself is, perhaps, more interesting than something brushed off as "oh well it was just a fake rape anyway".

 

[sonicmj1]

There was no rape in the game. There wasn't even implied rape, because it was set up as a movie scene. And to be honest, I've seen PG-13 movies that have gone farther with implied rape. They pulled their punches here, so the controversy feels manufactured. It seems like people are conversing as if there was a rape depicted because people want to have this conversation, and not because the scene in the game was particularly shocking or noteworthy.

Do you think Carla Ellison is lying about how the scene made her feel for "manufactured" controversy?

 

[faceless007]

You wrongly conflate "is" and "ought".

Er, no. Those playing the "So you're saying rape is worse than murder?" card are. I'm starting from the premise that they are correct, and looking at whether the evidence of our cultural output supports it. Since it doesn't seem to, that indicates that they are the ones conflating their "ought" with what actually is. What I think "ought" to be the case is not part of this argument.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I wasn't aware of that not having played it. Aside from that, though, does it seem like a workable solution if a man were to be raped in place of the woman and/or if the player were given the choice of whom to finish?

Edit: I understand that the inclusion of a rape scene itself is objectionable but if it must be included would the above make it less controversial or more accepted?

I don't believe so.

The point of the scene is make the player feel uncomfortable or bad for liking or wanting to like the character they are playing. This character is effectively acting as Jacket from the first game so there's a follow on effect from there.

Trying to tone down the scene waters down the impact. The unfortunate problem with male rape in media is that, a lot of the time, it is played for laughs. This means the scene would become, for a lot of people, unintentional comedy.

 

[Mark L]

Er, no. Those playing the "So you're saying rape is worse than murder?" card are. I'm starting from the premise that they are correct, and looking at whether the evidence of our cultural output supports it. Since it doesn't seem to, that indicates that they are the ones conflating their "ought" with what actually is. What I think "ought" to be the case is not part of this argument.

Our current cultural output does not determine whether something is worse than something else. Your moral argument fails because it relies on what people currently believe to define morality.

If it did, it would follow that rape culture, as the US has it now, is morally acceptable, as it is the construct of our society's tacit acceptance.

We come to morality from other directions beyond "well, it's what everyone else believes right now, so I guess it's the right thing to do." And it's a good thing, too.

Looking at how people respond to things surely has some value, but it is by no means dispositive.

 

[djtiesto]

Good thing all I'm really attached to in the franchise is the music... will just d/l the soundtrack and call it a day.

 

[Moon_frogger]

We're desensitized to regular violence in games. Today's most popular games have you killing hundreds upon hundreds of human beings. Today's most popular games don't typically feature Rape scenes. You wouldn't play a game where rape is the main mechanic. Despite killing being 'worse' than rape, rape is still the more shocking depiction. Why is this hard to understand.

Furthermore, it's obvious that the developers intent is to shock with this scene. They know full well that we expect murder to happen and by subverting our expectations with a rape scene they are using the element of Surprise to make the player uncomfortable.we don't yet know that it's actors filming a scene. It happens too fast. They know a rape will make the player uncomfortable in a way bludgeoning can't, because we've seen that 1000 times in the last game. There's a dawning realization that he doesn't intend to kill his victim....then the director yells cut. The player is left disoriented and vaguely uneasy. It's powerful and effective. It's far more disturbing then just another bludgeoning.

It really can't be that hard for people to understand.

 

[Krabboss]

Wasn't the original Hotline just a commentary on how pointless lots of killing in video games is?

No?

 

[dimb]

You wouldn't play a game where rape is the main mechanic.

But I have.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I genuinely like Cara Ellison's article because it really it just emotion and discussion can flow from there.

 

[SapientWolf]

Do you think Carla Ellison is lying about how the scene made her feel for "manufactured" controversy?

I think things like intent and context are being lost in the conversation as the spotlight is turned towards Carla's disgust. And I'm fine having a conversation about Carla's disgust, and the personal reasons for it, but it seems only tangentially related to Hotline Miami 2 as a game. That brief scene doesn't define the game, although it's the centerpiece of the preview. There are thousands (if not millions) of people that would be disgusted by a game that looks like psychopathic, drug fueled retro murder porn, but they're typically not getting the spotlight in a gaming preview.

But, like I said, people wanted this conversation to happen and it's happening.

 

[Moon_frogger]

But I have.

Ok, and No doubt it was quality entertainment but I doubt you'd being seeing it on any game of the year lists. Get what I'm saying? Do you understand what 'taboo' means?

 

[Road of Ease]

Right. When the hell did I say rape wasn't an act of violence?

And when did you say it was? Some other member had to come with an interpretation of what you meant, you couldn't even do it yourself.

 

[faceless007]

Our current cultural output does not determine whether something is worse than something else.

I never said it did. However, it does determine to a large degree whether something is considered worse than others to depict in fiction. Mapping that relationship to the real world morals is, as you say, fallacious, but I'm not the one doing that (initially); those making the argument that "Murder is worse than rape, therefore rape should be more acceptable than murder to depict in fiction" are the ones making that fallacy, but in reverse. I never endorsed that argument; I started from the conclusion and worked backwards to examine whether it is supported.

Your moral argument fails because it relies on what people currently believe to define morality.

I was not making a moral argument (except for that one sentence about a functioning moral compass not being OK with a rape-centric game; feel free to write it off as me being cheeky); I took pains throughout to state that I was talking about what is considered acceptable in story and fiction. That's a factual question, not a moral one.

I never said that morals are determined by majority consensus; that's absurd.

 

[MvmntInGrn]

We're desensitized to regular violence in games. Today's most popular games have you killing hundreds upon hundreds of human beings. Today's most popular games don't typically feature Rape scenes. You wouldn't play a game where rape is the main mechanic. Despite killing being 'worse' than rape, rape is still the more shocking depiction. Why is this hard to understand.

Furthermore, it's obvious that the developers intent is to shock with this scene. They know full well that we expect murder to happen and by subverting our expectations with a rape scene they are using the element of Surprise to make the player uncomfortable.we don't yet know that it's actors filming a scene. It happens too fast. They know a rape will make the player uncomfortable in a way bludgeoning can't, because we've seen that 1000 times in the last game. There's a dawning realization that he doesn't intend to kill his victim....then the director yells cut. The player is left disoriented and vaguely uneasy. It's powerful and effective. It's far more disturbing then just another bludgeoning.

It really can't be that hard for people to understand.

This is what I got from it all. The intent was to shock the player and make them feel uneasy for just a moment. It was vile in a way gamers don't find beating people to a pulp vile.

I do understand why some may have a stronger and different reaction to the material though. Women especially as it is extremely likely that the average women has or knows someone closely who has had to deal with sexual abuse or rape.

I don't expect every person to react the way the developers expected. That is impossible. Given how common sexual abuse and rape are though I think it's use here just to unnerve the player may not be a good choice. However brief and played-off it was.

Now if they were using it to address the issue I don't think it would have been taken offensively to the same group who find it offensive now. Of course I don't think that is on the agenda for the developers of Hotline Miami 2.

EDIT: Y'know I remember seeing a cutscene from Silent Hill 3 that tried something similar to this. The whole "Monsters? They look like monsters to you?" thing. Of course they found a way to unnerve the player that doesn't offend any particular party. Kind of hard to do this with a game that is already so over-the-top there are few things you can rely on to up the shock value. The cryptic method of storytelling (that doesn't prioritize deep characters we know the lives of) doesn't exactly help either. The concept of killing harmless civilians wouldn't phase you while playing Hotline Miami.
EDIT2: That cutscene.

 

[mavs]

This is what I got from it all. The intent was to shock the player and make them feel uneasy for just a moment. It was vile in a way gamers don't find beating people to a pulp vile.

I do understand why some may have a stronger and different reaction to the material though. Women especially as it is extremely likely that the average women has or knows someone closely who has had to deal with sexual abuse or rape.

I don't expect every person to react the way the developers expected. That is impossible. Given how common sexual abuse and rape are though I think it's use here just to unnerve the player may not be a good choice. However brief and played-off it was.

Now if they were using it to address the issue I don't think it would have been taken offensively to the same group who find it offensive now. Of course I don't think that is on the agenda for the developers of Hotline Miami 2.

I'm not sure what the developers expected. Or what you think they expected. Since they haven't given any comment yet.

In the first game they seemed to be challenging the player to dislike the violence.

 

[Devolution]

Some thoughts on why murdering hundreds of dudes might be ok but rape is offensive to some people:

1. It's assumed, but not implicitly stated that the people being murdered are 'bad guys' that is to say gangsters or other disreputable types that might deserve what's coming to them. If hotline miami was about murdering a bunch of defenceless kindergardeners it certainly wouldn't have seen the light of day, at least not as a commercial release on steam. For example would you play a game that was primarily a rape simulator? Yet murder is worse than rape right?

2. Rape survivors are constantly subjected to 'rape culture' and I personally feel that If some people see rape in a video game, perhaps out of context of the story as offensive than that is actually pretty legit. There are after all, no murder survivors to be offended by the murder simulation in hotline miami.

3. If you want to compare rape scenes in other Media we can do that. rape scenes in films Aren't always praised as 'powerful' or 'emotional' and plenty of films are considered to be in poor taste because of their rape scenes, to the point of being panned by critics and banned in many countries. There's really not as much of a double standard here as some of you are making it out to be. A clockwork orange was almost impossible to see in the uk for nearly 25 years.

4. Newer forms of media aren't held to the same standards as older ones. We've seen this with film, comics and now video games. I personally don't agree with it but video games will get their. The medium is still having growing pains and its just not at the point where the general public can hold it to the same standards as other forms of entertainment.

Having said all that I feel hotline miami handled its violence very well and if there is a rape scene in the next game I actually trust that its there for a good reason and the games makers actually have something interesting to say.

I think that the difference really is the fact that gun violence exists mainly in the realm of fantasy for most gamers, where as female gamers are much more faced with the possibility of sexual violence; as the article states, one in five has experience that will be revisited through a scene like this.

As a male it's easy to ignore and just banalize the argument by calling out Mortal Kombat LOL! But that's a gross simplification that tries to dismiss a real issue.

This plus the way it's typically protrayed: hamfisted, lack of nuance and don't even get me started on the "no no yes" rape bits in movies that make me want to vomit.

Most of the time it just strikes me as something to jarr a viewer or shock them into feeling bad with very little appreciation for what victims actually go through. Like in many fictional worlds a woman only finds strength after she's been victimized and seeks revenge. It's all so "this is totally empowering right right? It's so deep because we touched on a something that people don't really discuss often."

Most of the time I don't get angry or even all that upset. I just find it quite trite and contrived as fuck. And I certainly don't see gaming getting this sensitive subject quite right any time soon since other forms of media are shit at it also.

Rape being an all too real reality for some people makes it hit closer to home than being a spy or robbing banks.

 

[DocSeuss]

It seems like Hotline Miami is basically pointing out the double-standard: we see rape in films, and we often either allow it or even, in some cases, laud it. We see it in games, suddenly it's bad.

So HM2 crafts a moment where you're like "hey this is bad," and then "oh it's a movie, but it still feels bad," and HM2's like "YES THAT IS THE POINT. THIS IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT."

In that light, it sounds kinda awesome.

 

[mavs]

It seems like Hotline Miami is basically pointing out the double-standard: we see rape in films, and we often either allow it or even, in some cases, laud it. We see it in games, suddenly it's bad.

So HM2 crafts a moment where you're like "hey this is bad," and then "oh it's a movie, but it still feels bad," and HM2's like "YES THAT IS THE POINT. THIS IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT."

In that light, it sounds kinda awesome.

That...sounds pointless and trite. So I hope that's not what they are trying to do.

 

[Pau]

It seems like Hotline Miami is basically pointing out the double-standard: we see rape in films, and we often either allow it or even, in some cases, laud it. We see it in games, suddenly it's bad.

So HM2 crafts a moment where you're like "hey this is bad," and then "oh it's a movie, but it still feels bad," and HM2's like "YES THAT IS THE POINT. THIS IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT."

In that light, it sounds kinda awesome.

That wouldn't be awesome because that's not what happens in other media at all. It would be mostly just very ignorant of the discussions that are had about rape in film.

 

[sonicmj1]

It seems like Hotline Miami is basically pointing out the double-standard: we see rape in films, and we often either allow it or even, in some cases, laud it. We see it in games, suddenly it's bad.

So HM2 crafts a moment where you're like "hey this is bad," and then "oh it's a movie, but it still feels bad," and HM2's like "YES THAT IS THE POINT. THIS IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT."

In that light, it sounds kinda awesome.

We don't see rape in films that much, and it's rarely universally lauded. In fact, it's often seen as crass or tasteless.

I just posted an example of this on the last page. There really isn't a double standard. But for some reason, every time someone is critical of a game's handling of rape or sex or race, others see that as a call for forcible censorship.

 

[Treemonkeys]

I'm happy about this for how it exposes the cognitive dissonance in society, no interest in playing the game though.

 

[Mister Negative]

No?

That was my interpretation. Here's a post on gamasutra that goes into detail about it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RamiIsmail/20121029/180408/

I highly recommend reading it, it's a very interesting interpretation of the game.

 

[Scrabble]

This plus the way it's typically protrayed: hamfisted, lack of nuance and don't even get me started on the "no no yes" rape bits in movies that make me want to vomit.

Most of the time it just strikes me as something to jarr a viewer or shock them into feeling bad with very little appreciation for what victims actually go through. Like in many fictional worlds a woman only finds strength after she's been victimized and seeks revenge. It's all so "this is totally empowering right right? It's so deep because we touched on a something that people don't really discuss often."

Most of the time I don't get angry or even all that upset. I just find it quite trite and contrived as fuck. And I certainly don't see gaming getting this sensitive subject quite right any time soon since other forms of media are shit at it also.

Rape being an all too real reality for some people makes it hit closer to home than being a spy or robbing banks.

Any potential touchy subject matter can be a "bit to real" for people though. You can't behold artists to comply with every possible offensive issue one might have with something, or expect them to handle it in an exact way to be deemed not as offensive. If you don't like insensitive jokes than don't go to a comedy club, if you don't like violence and gore than don't go watch a horror movie, if the issue of rape hits home a little to close than either you know ahead of time to avoid this game, or you just turn the game off and move on with your business.

 

[leadbelly]

A clockwork orange was almost impossible to see in the uk for nearly 25 years.

Actually Clockwork Orange wasn't officially banned in the UK for its content.That is a misconception. In fact it was Stanley Kubrick himself that banned it in the UK. I think the reason was unclear, but it was speculated it was due to a series of violent crimes linked to the movie. It was never officially banned though.

The thing about censoring content though is it tends to have the opposite effect. Movies become more popular once they are banned than perhaps they would have if they weren't.

 

[UrbanRats]

It seems like Hotline Miami is basically pointing out the double-standard: we see rape in films, and we often either allow it or even, in some cases, laud it. We see it in games, suddenly it's bad.

So HM2 crafts a moment where you're like "hey this is bad," and then "oh it's a movie, but it still feels bad," and HM2's like "YES THAT IS THE POINT. THIS IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT."

In that light, it sounds kinda awesome.

"Hey, rape is bad!".
lol, i hope for their dignity that wasn't the intent.
--
Having played Hotline Miami 1 extensively and seen the scene, i really doubt it, though.
The fact that they take the control away from you, to me indicates that is conveying to the player a message about the character and subsequently one about the world he's in (with the sleazy director etc etc).
However, i do think that they used that scene to shatter the sense of comfort and satisfaction you find in the killing, during the game, giving you a different context and forcing you on a double take on everything the game offers.

After all the other usable characters are also a bunch of pathetic copycat losers that go around killing hobos to emulate HM1's events, kind of like in Human Centipede 2, only here there's a form of contempt towards the player.

 

[Devolution]

Any potential touchy subject matter can be a "bit to real" for people though. You can't behold artists to comply with every possible offensive issue one might have with something, or expect them to handle it in an exact way to be deemed not as offensive. If you don't like insensitive jokes than don't go to a comedy club, if you don't like violence and gore than don't go watch a horror movie, if the issue of rape hits home a little to close than either you know ahead of time to avoid this game, or you just turn the game off and move on with you business.

Every possible offensive issue is a straw man. We're talking about a very specific issue that hits close to home because it targets a particular gender more often. The reason people don't get upset at killing mass hordes of people is because it's usually directed a general audience. There's also a difference between just cartoonish killing or hordes in games and actively making a character suffer. Killing in most games is a means to an end, making people suffer is something else entirely.

 

[SheikRattleEnroll]

Every possible offensive issue is a straw man. We're talking about a very specific issue that hits close to home because it targets a particular gender more often. The reason people don't get upset at killing mass hordes of people is because it's usually directed a general audience. There's also a difference between just cartoonish killing or hordes in games and actively making a character suffer. Killing in most games is a means to an end, making people suffer is something else entirely.

Really? Violence doesn't target men more often in media?

I like how you downplay killing in the game by saying it is "cartoonish", but the rape isn't cartoonish somehow, even though it is depicted with the same art style.

There's plenty of games that depict men experiencing violent suffering before death. Rape isn't the only kind of suffering.

I personally don't really have any interest in causing realistic suffering in games, but I'm not sure that one kind of suffering should be so massively more offensive than any other kind. I'm also not really sure this is even remotely realistic.

 

[Devolution]

Really? Violence doesn't target men more often in media?

I like how you downplay killing in the game by saying it is "cartoonish", but the rape isn't cartoonish somehow, even though it is depicted with the same art style.

There's plenty of games that depict men experiencing violent suffering before death. Rape isn't the only kind of suffering.

I personally don't really have any interest in causing realistic suffering in games, but I'm not sure that one kind of suffering should be so massively more offensive than any other kind. I'm also not really sure this is even remotely realistic.

Killing in games I find completely cartoonish. A game has yet to make me feel guilty or ashamed for doing the deed. It's just an obstacle, something in the way. I feel entirely different about many films.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Slice, dice, stab, shoot, kick, strangle or blow up some pixels with blood, guts and gore and nobody bats an eye.

Imply rape on some other pixels and everyone loses their shit.

 

[Palette Swap]

Slice, dice, stab, shoot, kick, strangle or blow up some pixels with blood, guts and gore and nobody bats an eye.

Imply rape on some other pixels and everyone loses their shit.

Who is everyone?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

its apparently not okay because you have to spend several seconds thinking its actual rape before the 'cut', i guess those sort of people also want jk rowling to say at the start or harry potter who dies and who doesnt so people know in advance before making a connection..

So, this is pretty much a horrible analogy.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Slice, dice, stab, shoot, kick, strangle or blow up some pixels with blood, guts and gore and nobody bats an eye.

Imply rape on some other pixels and everyone loses their shit.

every page has one

 

[Tiglet]

I'm not upset by this as this is just a videogame and I can distinguish games from reality. I'm also not a hypocrite. I love games like GTA where I can kill and beat people so this isn't anything different from that even though I would never play this game as it looks bad.

Makes me wonder why killing and beating people up is so widely accepted in videogames but rape always creates a shitstorm...

 

[UrbanRats]

Every possible offensive issue is a straw man. We're talking about a very specific issue that hits close to home because it targets a particular gender more often. The reason people don't get upset at killing mass hordes of people is because it's usually directed a general audience. There's also a difference between just cartoonish killing or hordes in games and actively making a character suffer. Killing in most games is a means to an end, making people suffer is something else entirely.

Premise: I do not think depicting murder and depicting rape are the same thing, for a number of reasons (and i don't think HM2 equates them either, btw).

However, in Hotline Miami often times you just don't "kill" your enemies, most of the finishers are cruel and disgustingly brutal and there are sort of "cutscenes" (not quite game mechanics and they are forced on you) where you inflict very brutal and slow pain on defenseless characters.

 

[Orayn]

While it's not like surreal, disturbing content is out of character for Hotline Miami, I can definitely see why someone would find the scene upsetting. I personally thought it seemed unnecessary.

Also, isn't it funny that the only people who mention censorship are the ones getting Fox News meta-offended at the article? The author never called for the game to be banned, for its content to be changed, for its creators to be silenced, or anything like that, but of it's hard to feel persecuted by the evil PC hordes without an actual threat, so you might as well go ahead and infer one that no one implied.

 

[Mister Negative]

Killing in games I find completely cartoonish. A game has yet to make me feel guilty or ashamed for doing the deed. It's just an obstacle, something in the way. I feel entirely different about many films.

This, here, is what I think the original Hotline Miami was about. There was a point in the game where you were supposed to feel guilty for all the killing you had done, one of the characters even asks you directly if you enjoy killing other people.

I know it's a bit silly to assume that HM2 is trying to apply this same mentality to rape in the sequel without knowing the full context of the events in the game, but it's not something I'd put past the developers, especially with how certain things in HM1 were handled.

 

[sonicmj1]

I'm not upset by this as this is just a videogame and I can distinguish games from reality. I'm also not a hypocrite. I love games like GTA where I can kill and beat people so this isn't anything different from that even though I would never play this game as it looks bad.

Makes me wonder why killing and beating people up is so widely accepted in videogames but rape always creates a shitstorm...

If only she addressed in her preview why this felt different to her from all the violence that came before.

And it starts to make me feel incredibly hypocritical: you liked the violence, I think. You liked, as the game says, hurting people. Why do you feel ugly now, for playing a game where your character rapes a woman? It isn’t even graphic, but implied. These are pixels, Cara. Just pixels.

But it’s because I identify as a woman. The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe. I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency. My agency has been removed not only from Pig Butcher, but agency was never given to the woman I now identify with – not even AI.

Too bad we'll never know.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Every possible offensive issue is a straw man. We're talking about a very specific issue that hits close to home because it targets a particular gender more often. The reason people don't get upset at killing mass hordes of people is because it's usually directed a general audience. There's also a difference between just cartoonish killing or hordes in games and actively making a character suffer. Killing in most games is a means to an end, making people suffer is something else entirely.

This is the entire point of the scene. It's to make you consider whether you will still feel comfortable with the game if you make people suffer as opposed to the typical x4 COMBO type deaths the game ususally offers.

 

[UrbanRats]

This, here, is what I think the original Hotline Miami was about. There was a point in the game where you were supposed to feel guilty for all the killing you had done, one of the characters even asks you directly if you enjoy killing other people.

I know it's a bit silly to assume that HM2 is trying to apply this same mentality to rape in the sequel without knowing the full context of the events in the game, but it's not something I'd put past the developers, especially with how certain things in HM1 were handled.

If rape is implied only in that one single scene, i doubt it.

I don't think the game is trying to say anything about rape itself, i think it uses that scene to frame the Pig character, his world and, at the same time, startle and confuse the player, making them feel uncomfortable and upset.
Hotline Miami is big on punishing you, after all.

Of course, i'd have to play the game to say.
-

Also, personally the violence in Hotline Miami, as pixelated and as over the top as it was, affected me more than any other recent game i can remember, including Spec Ops and The Last of Us.

 

[freenudemacusers]

This is the entire point of the scene. It's to make you consider whether you will still feel comfortable with the game if you make people suffer as opposed to the typical x4 COMBO type deaths the game ususally offers.

I'm not sure why they pulled the rug out, so to speak. The videogame characters I killed in HM1 were videogame dead.

 

[leadbelly]

Also, isn't it funny that the only people who mention censorship are the ones getting Fox News meta-offended at the article? The author never called for the game to be banned, for its content to be changed, for its creators to be silenced, or anything like that, but of it's hard to feel persecuted by the evil PC hordes without an actual threat, so you might as well go ahead and infer one that no one implied.

Depends what posts you are referring to. I kind of mentioned censorship, but it was more in response to a post in this thread not the article itself. The argument being that rape in movies is heavily criticised as well, so much so that some movies have been banned because of it. I was just pointing out that the example he had given wasn't actually correct. A Clockwork Orange was never officially banned in the UK.

 

[Mistouze]

The most fucked up thing to me is the film director going "And you, work on your feminity" to the actress. Be sexy when you're playing someone getting raped!

 

[Coffee Dog]

It has made my safe space – where I am a powerful thug who isn’t accountable to anyone – no longer safe.

From this line it's apparent that she more or less identified with the pig butcher. The scene was to make her no longer identify with the pig butcher and question her participation in the acts of pig butcher. Sounds like it was a resounding success. Why is this bad, again?

 

[UrbanRats]

I'm not sure why they pulled the rug out, so to speak. The videogame characters I killed in HM1 were videogame dead.

I see HM1 more as an open question, rather than a defined judgment on entertainment's violence.
I think this explores these topics, in much the same, open ended way.

That's why i think the end result, what each person takes from the game, ends up being very subjective and varied.

From this line it's apparent that she more or less identified with the pig butcher. The scene was to make her no longer identify with the pig butcher and question her participation in the acts of pig butcher. Sounds like it was a resounding success. Why is this bad, again?

I'm not sure Devolution was referring to Hotline Miami specifically in that line, i could be wrong though.

 

[Mister Negative]

If rape is implied only in that one single scene, i doubt it.

I don't think the game is trying to say anything about rape itself, i think it uses that scene to frame the Pig character, his world and, at the same time, startle and confuse the player, making them feel uncomfortable and upset.
Hotline Miami is big on punishing you, after all.

Of course, i'd have to play the game to say.
-

Also, personally the violence in Hotline Miami, as pixelated and as over the top as it was, affected me more than any other recent game i can remember, including Spec Ops and The Last of Us.

Of course. I wasn't trying to say that the entire game would be about raping people the way HM1 was about killing people, that's absolutely ludicrous. But I think within the context of that singular event, it's trying to do that same thing. Startling and confusing the player is a byproduct of making them think about rape through the way that it's shown in the game. HM2 is basically saying, "you have participated in a rape, and how does that make you feel?"

In fact, I would think that the director yelling "CUT!" serves the scene even better. The player should feel relief when they realize it wasn't a "real" rape, but they should feel that relief because of how awful the act of rape really is, and how even being forced to perform it/witness it in a video game is awful.

It's late, so I might be thinking about this too much, but the fact that control is taken away from the player is important. Control is taken away from you, you're forced to do something you don't want to do. That's what rape is about, is it not? The lack of control the victim feels?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I'm interpreting this right now.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Movies and books can do it but games can't?

I support Dennaton Games in whatever they do with Hotline Miami 2. They know what they're doing, and I'm sure there's a story reason for the implied rape scene. I'm also sure the player is supposed to be disturbed by it, just like the player is supposed to be disturbed by the senseless murder committed by the Fans.

 

[Orayn]

Depends what posts you are referring to. I kind of mentioned censorship, but it was more in response to a post in this thread not the article itself. The argument being that rape in movies is heavily criticised as well so much so that some movies have been banned because of it. I was just pointing out that the example he had given wasn't actually correct. Clockwork Orange was never officially banned in the UK.

Your post was fine, my issue is with the people pulling it out of thin air.

haha so true

Frankly i happy that game devs do what they think is best for their game. There to much censorship already in games. Show rape scene in movie or book nothing happens. Do that in game and "OMG crossed the line !! call 911"

If you want to be disgusted by a scene in a film, that's fine, but to say you are betrayed by that film-maker or artist and you are campaigning for something to be removed from said art, you are trying to be a censor.

...

I fear that journalists and critics will try and some already have tried to take the form of the last bastions of values and morality. There are enough fundamentalists trying to hamper the artistic freedoms of game makers.

Whilst she has her concerns about the rape scene, well written out, that's completely fine. The game isn't for her, even if for the literally 2-3 second scene. The worst thing you can do however, is to remove it. To not portray the rape, even if it's part of the story, is a form of a censorship that discourages people to talk about it. We can pretend the world is all nice and flowers, but unfortunately things like this happen every day(albeit not in the same context.

Stop telling others what to do with their art. That's what you're trying to do when you get down to it. If you don't like it then don't consume it. Games shouldn't have to abide by what you see is fit for consumption.

So I read the article and my feelings are the same. Art is expression. As an artist, I feel its my right and duty to express myself as I see fit, without care for what society thinks about it. Why should Devolver tailor their game to what is politically correct? I thought we were tired of focus tested games developed by sales committees.

You do have to admit that it is strange that it's fine to kill tons of people, but rape is not OK.

That being said, for some reason...it does seem pretty wrong that there's rape in a game, by the protagonist.

BUT, I really hate censorship, or for developers to not be able make games the way they want. But still.

I don't think many people will defend RapeLay, and that was certainly someone's "vision" too.

They've all been called out plenty of times before on previous pages and my intention isn't to start a quote war, I'm just mystified at how quick some people are to equate sharing an opinion with demanding that all dissent to your position needs to be destroyed.

 

[UrbanRats]

Of course. I wasn't trying to say that the entire game would be about raping people the way HM1 was about killing people, that's absolutely ludicrous. But I think within the context of that singular event, it's trying to do that same thing. Startling and confusing the player is a byproduct of making them think about rape through the way that it's shown in the game. HM2 is basically saying, "you have participated in a rape, and how does that make you feel?"

In fact, I would think that the director yelling "CUT!" serves the scene even better. The player should feel relief when they realize it wasn't a "real" rape, but they should feel that relief because of how awful the act of rape really is, and how even being forced to perform it/witness it in a video game is awful.

It's late, so I might be thinking about this too much, but the fact that control is taken away from the player is important. Control is taken away from you, you're forced to do something you don't want to do. That's what rape is about, is it not? The lack of control the victim feels?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I'm interpreting this right now.

Well the problem i have with your interpretation is that it seems to put the director in a positive light of sort, the one, in a way, bringing you out of the nightmare.
But i think the "femininity" line, is exactly to paint him in a negative one.

Movies and books can do it but games can't?

Dude, read the last 2 pages, seriously.