I imagine the drawing does work. The person just does it wrong some times.
The Wonderful 101 Review Thread
- Thread starter Nirolak
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I imagine the drawing does work. The person just does it wrong some times.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You never played Okami?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Okami was a bit different in that the shapes you drew at times contained multiple parts. (you'd draw one part, pick up the brush and then draw another. Everything in 101 seems to be one fluid shape)
and even then the only problem I ever had with the mechanic in that game was drawing the heart for that one sidequest. because I was drawing the parts in the wrong order and the game wouldn't recognize it.
and even then the only problem I ever had with the mechanic in that game was drawing the heart for that one sidequest. because I was drawing the parts in the wrong order and the game wouldn't recognize it.
TDLink
Member
Based on the demo, this game's a lot more forgiving on the drawings than Okami (and the drawings are more basic). Unite Hand's drawing is a circle but a C (or half circle) is typically good enough. Whip is an S but a somewhat curvy line more than does the job.
For recruiting guys (also technically a circle drawing) a line with a bit of a bend to it works 99% of the time.
I have mostly been using the analog stick for all of this rather than the gamepad, maybe that is what is giving the people with issues a hard time.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I had some fun times wth bombs being interpreted as Blossom. Very few, I admit, but there were there (and some sidequests were annoying as hell because of this)
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
The fuck is this?
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
So people who don´t agree with you are bad game reviewers. What a joke.
outunderthestars
Banned
Seriously, welcome to every review thread in the history of GAF. All slightly negative reviews are deeply flawed and the reviewer simply doesn't know what they are talking about.
Why are you bringing Okami into the discussion once again?
Look, I'l post again from the last page
In doesn't work for you in the same way?
Freezie KO
Banned
Or they're sucky gamers. Or they hate creative games. Or they hate games that don't control like Call of Duty. Or they're too busy to learn the game. Or they're too dumb to "get" the game. Or they're biased. Or they're part of the anti-*insert_publisher* conspiracy.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Uh, I think he meant that they are well written, you know, like he is writing in his post? He didn't say anything about bad reviewers as well, so you're fighting windmills here brave knight.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Did not like the demo, I honestly surprised so many on GAF liked it.
I'll rent it to see how the whole thing panned out, but that demo cancelled my preorder.
I'll rent it to see how the whole thing panned out, but that demo cancelled my preorder.
again for those who haven't played the demo...
touch controls can be hit or miss BUT the gameplay/game design is forgiving.
so much happens that if you draw your gun instead of using the sword, you still have fun, still make hits and still can try a second better drawing.
I think the overall gameplay is very sound and does take into account many/if not all the limits of the hardware.
touch controls can be hit or miss BUT the gameplay/game design is forgiving.
so much happens that if you draw your gun instead of using the sword, you still have fun, still make hits and still can try a second better drawing.
I think the overall gameplay is very sound and does take into account many/if not all the limits of the hardware.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I welcome you to provide counter arguments for everything youve listed and more, but I'm fairly sure you just want to shit up the thread.
Freezie KO
Banned
Counter arguments for what exactly? Everything I listed was mentioned in the "Kamiya responds" thread as a reactionary defense of the game.
A review says the controls are bad, and posters accused the reviewer of sucking at games. Or not taking the time to learn the game.
Another review says the camera is bad, and posters accused the reviewer of disliking the game for "being hard."
Negative reviews were accused of docking points because it's a Nintendo game.
I literally took everything I said from the absurd comments made in the other thread. No counter arguments are needed in the face of such baseless playground logic.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Honestly I dont have the time to respond to your entire post, but as far as this point goes, is that not a fair assessment? We've played the demo and as long as you draw the shapes accurately the controls work fine. It's user error.
Wunderbar.
Freezie KO
Banned
No, it's not a fair assessment. If you're going to accuse a reviewer of anything, you actually need to back it up. You're going to accuse a reviewer of not taking time to learn the game, then prove it. So on for all your baseless claims, whether bias, conspiracy, or even their proficiency in video games as a whole.
You're not the only one who played the demo. The controls are not great. And before you accuse me (also) of not taking time to learn the game, know that I played through the story 4 times and got Platinum rank on Normal. Nothing about "learning the game" is going to fix the UI on the GamePad or convince anyone that an analog stick is a preferred tool for drawing shapes.
BruiserBear
Banned
I'm really disappointed to see this game turned out like it did. I had really high hopes based on the visual style. It's even more disappointing when you consider how late it arrived.
Coffee Dog
Banned
It's "backed up" by the reviewers claims being completely baseless. If you are going to claim the controls are inaccurate you have to prove that. Because as tons of gameplay footage will attest, the controls are accurate.
The burden of proof is on you here. And frankly, I dont expect you to have shit beyond anecdotal "oh i totally drew a sword and it gave me a whip" stories.
? How did it turn out? You're disappointed that it's apparently a great, crazy game with deep gameplay?
you are disappointed because the game has a metascore of ~80?
Freezie KO
Banned
The faulty controls are about more than just whether you can perfectly draw a shape with your stylus out when no enemies are around. They're cumbersome at best.
The GamePad UI has a two menu options, one at the very bottom and one at the upper right. Many people have reported hitting those on accident because, empirically, there is no feedback on the touchscreen such that you would have with buttons.
This effectively makes you look down, so you don't accidentally pull up a menu. So while touching the GamePad does slow the game down, your act of looking down does not slow gameplay. This crucial second easily causes one to lose a combo, especially as the enemy falls out of an air combo.
And similarly, as the game rushes you to complete shapes after taking your attention away from the GamePad while still trying to do mid-air attacks, the chance of either user error or the game not reading your symbol will indeed have you fighting the controls rather than the enemies. Drawing just isn't as precise as a button.
And this is further hurt because of the game mechanic where you can have too big of a shape to draw a secondary one. It's not always a mess, but often enough to cause frustration. So if you want to claim that this is all user error and that if players just learned the pixel-perfect way to draw shapes, they would have 100% control, that's fine. But that argument does nothing to bolster the control scheme. It just proves it's an exercise in frustration and not, as Platinum Games would like their games to be, fun.
As for the right stick, analog sticks just weren't made for drawing shapes. If for some reason you think they are, then I'd suggest you open up a business to sell analog sticks as drawing utensils. They're naturally inaccurate, imprecise, and have spring back to a center location. But if you're the first person to figure out how analog sticks are precise at drawing, I'll bet you could make a lot of money.
The camera also frequently loses enemies, and the smaller enemies get lost on screen. But those are minor problems compared to the controls.
so you never played Okami on the PS2. man you missed out.
Coffee Dog
Banned
all i'm hearing is that you don't know how to draw a squiggly line or a circle with an analog stick and that sometimes you draw your shapes too big and it's totally kamiya's fault. if you slowed down and thought about what you were doing then you wouldn't be having these problems. It'll require practice to get better at not making mistakes like that, yeah, and at first it'll probably be frustrating, but that's not a bad thing in the least.
Freezie KO
Banned
Okay, so you didn't read anything I wrote. Nothing about the UI or menus. You clearly decided months ago this was the best game ever. Enjoy it.
I answer here in more details:
Draw shapes horizontally and you don't hit the buttons.
The more you play the more you learn to do shapes without looking at the gamepad. If you don't manage to do that, play it on Easy/Very Easy until you get use to it. The pace in these modes is less penalizing. I did that in the demo for the first run. It is not a disgrace to chose an easier mode for a game that innovates like this.
Let's assume you could play with buttons only. The games rushes you to complete actions fast, you try to do a combo but another enemy is attacking you. You miss the block button because of the pressure and you get your butt kicked. Let's blame the block button for that!
So don't be greedy. Assess the situation. Chose! What do you want to use: a big weapon or a combo of weapons? Draw accordingly. It's even easier to draw smaller shapes fast and combine them in multimorphs.
Again, play it in very easy mode and tell me if this is software error or faulty controls.
Draw shapes horizontally and you don't hit the buttons.
The more you play the more you learn to do shapes without looking at the gamepad. If you don't manage to do that, play it on Easy/Very Easy until you get use to it. The pace in these modes is less penalizing. I did that in the demo for the first run. It is not a disgrace to chose an easier mode for a game that innovates like this.
Let's assume you could play with buttons only. The games rushes you to complete actions fast, you try to do a combo but another enemy is attacking you. You miss the block button because of the pressure and you get your butt kicked. Let's blame the block button for that!
So don't be greedy. Assess the situation. Chose! What do you want to use: a big weapon or a combo of weapons? Draw accordingly. It's even easier to draw smaller shapes fast and combine them in multimorphs.
Again, play it in very easy mode and tell me if this is software error or faulty controls.
no sir.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Again, I think it's worth reiterating that there's a fine line that needs to be considered here. Mind you, if the developers are happy with the interface as is and think it's working exactly the way they intended, and there are furthermore enthusiastic fans who have embraced that design and also claim it works, then it's hard to argue with that. However, when a complaint is common among different people -- particularly those who otherwise possess at least moderate skill in regards to gaming -- it becomes more difficult to ignore. And where I'm going with this is to simply state that derisively dismissing common criticism as "user error" I think shows a bit of wanton disregard for criticism.
That's not to say that alternative ideas wouldn't come with their own tradeoffs, or that this wasn't ultimately the best implementation. But observations from end users are always relevant. And if there's a common thread to some of the complaints, it probably necessitates a bit more consideration than simply going "Nah, it worked great once I figured it out; they probably just suck/don't know what they're doing."
Steve Youngblood
Member
As far as I know it is.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I found the drawing difficult with the right stick when I played the demo. I still think that was my fault and I just need to practice.
You're disappointed that it turned out to be a good game, and that most reviewers enjoyed it?
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
BruiserBear
Banned
I have, and the complaints that got mentioned sounded like specific things I would not enjoy.
Controls being the most common complaint, and the examples they gave sounded like problems I'd rather not try and overcome.
Bill Rizer
Member
If there's one thing I have to praise Germans for, it's their intellectual honesty.
Huh? Where did I day that? Maybe ease your finger off the trigger there bud.
Or, The Guardian and a couple other British newspapers write quite good reviews imo. I couldn't give a shit if they are positive or negative reviews - that doesn't make them any less/more well written.
I also don't care what review scores for TW101 are so please don't project your own bias onto me. I read the review from the Guardian on TW101 (as I've read Guardian reviews for most games I'm interested in recently), liked the quality of the writing again and commented on how proficient I think they are getting. If they'd concluded that the game is a pile of dicks then I'd still have had the same opinion.
This. Thankyou.
Seriously, some people need to pack the straw men away for a while. They're wearing out.
fatgamecat
Member
The issue isn't that with enough training and skill that you can overcome the difficulty of the controls. Yes if you're good enough you can master the controls, which seem to be harder than average to get a handle on.
The issue is a lot of people don't like that form of difficulty to begin with. Especially when it comes to abstract shape drawing or accidentally hitting buttons on the tablet due to the hardware design.
The issue is a lot of people don't like that form of difficulty to begin with. Especially when it comes to abstract shape drawing or accidentally hitting buttons on the tablet due to the hardware design.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
The issue is the latter being misrepresented as the former.
Reviewers that don't like the controls are reporting that they are inaccurate and unreliable, leading alot of people to believe that's the case.
but I mean that's just going to happen with something as subjective as game criticism. Even on gaf you have a bunch of people convinced that one controller or method is the only way to play the game.
Freezie KO
Banned
Here's how I would fix the controls.
GamePad: Make the entire screen your drawing area. This eliminates accidental menu selections from the UI.
Instant Pause: Rather than mere slowdown, just pause the game for drawing shapes. Unpause the game when the shape is confirmed. Combined with the fact that there would no longer be menus on the GamePad UI, this means that the game pauses and allows you to draw your shape the split second your finger touches the pad. Maybe start a countdown to unpause once your finger is removed from the screen.
Summon Last Support Morph: Similar to how the A button summons your last Unite Morph, the X button should summon your last support morph. This allows you to store two morphs that you drew while your characters were isolated away from enemies (perhaps in a brief respite between segments). A morph and a support should be plenty to give you a good combo.
Y Button Group Attack: Since X would be used to store a second Morph, Y should do the group attack.
Analog Stick To Run: Since Y is now the group attack, actually use the analog capabilities to enable running.
--
I'd like to, but it still requires me to look down, so I don't accidentally hit the menu buttons when I first put my finger to the pad.
Despite what some Gaffers claim, it's not the difficulty of the gameplay that's the problem. I got a Platinum rank on Normal. The combat isn't that difficult. The problem is that the controls are awkward, which makes the game less fun and the prospect of going back to perfect my scores less enticing.
Sure, if I mess up a combo because the game didn't recognize my gun, can I just start the combo again? Yeah. But that takes enjoyment out of the game.
And if I can Platinum-rank Normal, what enjoyment would I have running through Very Easy?
There are ways to accommodate for complex or unwieldy controls. Steel Battalion doesn't require the reflexes of a bullethell shooter for instance. I feel you're being purposefully obtuse here. There's a very real reason that, even in this game, the gameplay slows down. That's a concession that the controls are not meant to be rushed.
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How... reasonable.
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Is anyone hitting buttons accidentally due to hardware design? I hit the menu buttons on the GamePad on accident, but that's entirely a UI design problem on the software end.
GamePad: Make the entire screen your drawing area. This eliminates accidental menu selections from the UI.
Instant Pause: Rather than mere slowdown, just pause the game for drawing shapes. Unpause the game when the shape is confirmed. Combined with the fact that there would no longer be menus on the GamePad UI, this means that the game pauses and allows you to draw your shape the split second your finger touches the pad. Maybe start a countdown to unpause once your finger is removed from the screen.
Summon Last Support Morph: Similar to how the A button summons your last Unite Morph, the X button should summon your last support morph. This allows you to store two morphs that you drew while your characters were isolated away from enemies (perhaps in a brief respite between segments). A morph and a support should be plenty to give you a good combo.
Y Button Group Attack: Since X would be used to store a second Morph, Y should do the group attack.
Analog Stick To Run: Since Y is now the group attack, actually use the analog capabilities to enable running.
--
I'd like to, but it still requires me to look down, so I don't accidentally hit the menu buttons when I first put my finger to the pad.
Despite what some Gaffers claim, it's not the difficulty of the gameplay that's the problem. I got a Platinum rank on Normal. The combat isn't that difficult. The problem is that the controls are awkward, which makes the game less fun and the prospect of going back to perfect my scores less enticing.
Sure, if I mess up a combo because the game didn't recognize my gun, can I just start the combo again? Yeah. But that takes enjoyment out of the game.
And if I can Platinum-rank Normal, what enjoyment would I have running through Very Easy?
There are ways to accommodate for complex or unwieldy controls. Steel Battalion doesn't require the reflexes of a bullethell shooter for instance. I feel you're being purposefully obtuse here. There's a very real reason that, even in this game, the gameplay slows down. That's a concession that the controls are not meant to be rushed.
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Steve Youngblood said:
How... reasonable.
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tournanext said:
Is anyone hitting buttons accidentally due to hardware design? I hit the menu buttons on the GamePad on accident, but that's entirely a UI design problem on the software end.
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