phosphor112
Banned
Hard to reason with ignorance.
He even ignored StevieP. I learned my lesson in ignoring him before.
WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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Hard to reason with ignorance.
He even ignored StevieP. I learned my lesson in ignoring him before.
Smurfman256
Member
Didn't that UE4 demo run off of a GTX 680?
Jack Cayman
Banned
Before we run into some wrong assumptions here I am not claiming that Pikmin 3 is a graphical powerhouse is a Wii game transfered to Wii U but it does excellent in the lighting department. See this image to explain my point better, about prefix lighting that Thunder Monkey claimed about the game, I do not know if he has played the game but when you enter in caves most creatures have lights sources that are reflecting all over the place like in this image.
I really want someone to explain to me in the light sources is not prefix you have many autonomous light sources that are reflecting to each object on that cave what kind of shaders does that if it isn't ray tracing? Real question.
I really want someone to explain to me in the light sources is not prefix you have many autonomous light sources that are reflecting to each object on that cave what kind of shaders does that if it isn't ray tracing? Real question.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Something along those lines. And apparently it didn't run great on that either when used in an actual gameplay scenario. We'll get there on SVOGI in this generation. Probably on PC's. But I doubt the need for prebaked lighting will go away on consoles. They might find some almost realtime approximations but it still won't be optimal for realtime rendering. Should speed up the dev process though.
edit: Jack the issue is you're seeing something that isn't there. That isn't light reflecting. It's inaccurate bloom. Bleeding through the rock Pikmin. Nothing in that scene is casting light from one material to the next. There'd be subtle blues on those yellow Pikmin from above, and a bluish brown mixture from below. That screen shows none of that.
Others have told you on this page how you can achieve it. The issue is you not believing it.
What's your guys' opinions on how SSBWU (seriously, is this what we're gonna call it?) looks right now? It's definitely improved on SSBB (I mean, obviously), but I feel it's not as impressive as it could be. I still see low poly objects (like Fox's tail) and none of the characters have shadows.
This was one of the reasons I wasn't too thrilled about having Namco spearhead development. Seems clear they're not as tech savvy as Hal (and even Game Arts!).
This was one of the reasons I wasn't too thrilled about having Namco spearhead development. Seems clear they're not as tech savvy as Hal (and even Game Arts!).
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I was honestly expecting more. I mean it's not like the technical direction of 3D Mario has changed much in the move to 3DWorld but I'm still struck by just how rounded and well lit everything is in it. Probably just technical proficiency with the impeccable artistic direction of EAD Tokyo at play there.
Part of the reason I was so shocked to see that DKCRTF was underwhelming. Still pretty no doubt, but not quite at the level I'd expect of Retro artists when given a substantial boost in capability.
Given the revolving door nature of Smash dev teams though part of me did expect it.
wonderdung
Member
Light sources don't "reflect" on things, they light them.
In this case it looks like all of the "lights" on the little dudes are just emissive with the overdone bloom making them look like they affect the scene.
Or maybe it's deferred and you're just getting diffuse/spec with no bounces. That's not ray tracing, that's just normal shading. Really hard to tell what's going on with a screenshot as nothing moves.
Jack Cayman
Banned
I could find a better video but here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3NwIDZvcCM8#t=389
For me I could say to correct myself about ray tracing maybe it is another shader that I do not know about. I would look at it more and return with more information.
That's just standard specular lighting, not raytracing. Example in CryEngine 3:
It's been used for a while but used extensively only recently, thanks to the introduction of deferred shading/lighting.
phosphor112
Banned
Specular maps reflect light. I went ahead and made an example for you.
On the left is an albedo texture. Color only.
On the right is a specular map. It shows how reflective a texture needs to be. White represents reflective parts of a texture, black represents non-reflective surfaces.
You can see that the rusted out parts of the texture are black, because they shouldn't be reflecting light.
You can make specularity straight into textures or program them into shaders.
EDIT: Here are some real world examples from Infamous: Second Son... This is NOT ray tracing.
Jack Cayman
Banned
That's just standard specular lighting, not raytracing. Example in CryEngine 3:
It's been used for a while but used extensively only recently, thanks to the introduction of deferred shading/lighting.
Thank you then, sorry I was wrong about ray tracing.
The moving lights in that video all seem to have your fairly basic combo of (likely non-bouncing) diffuse and specular reflection.
Diffuse reflections from dynamic point lights have been around since fairly early on in 3d games. By the late 90's, GPUs were getting fixed-function support for computing bump-mapped results for those diffuse reflections. Computationally robust programmable shaders allowed games to take the gist of the technique in all kinds of interesting directions; by late 2001*, there were games that had dynamic lights with bump-mapped specular reflections.
*I have no idea what games kicked it off, but I can safely say "by late 2001" because I've played enough Halo 1 to know that it's an example.
I fully understand that you won't be convinced by this, but whatever.
I don't even see any reflections in this image at all:
Yellow part looks like geo but could potentially be misconstrued as a reflection.
.
The yellow part is a Flying Pikmin.
Goddamn, that looks fucking cool.
... Either way much of the scene looks "off" given the weird inconsistently lit stuff.
OT: You know you're right about this scene with the lighting being kind of placed randomly. What if the glow on ground circled in red is suppose to be from the engine but they positioned it wrong?
I always thought that it was supposed to be the sun (dusk)
Nice choice with the "Latte" reference
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Could be screen-space and possibly ray cast, like the new Killzone on PS4.
What about this reflection ?
Is it raytracing?
Shin Johnpv
Member
That's not totally accurate. Ray tracing has been seen in movies for decades. Pixar's renderer Photorealistic Renderman started life as a scanline renderer and that's where most of Pixar's tools in regards to lighting and rendering stem from. It also wasn't just about going to raytracing (since Renderman has supported it for a few years) they went for a much more physically accurate render process in both the lighting and shader models. It wasn't as simple as well it was a giant resource hog. It was a workflow choice, a style choice, a production choice as well as a resource choice. As a note, Blue Sky has their own proprietary renderer that has been using raytracing, and going after physically accurate lighting for over a decade now.
Smurfman256
Member
Digital Foundry now has a Face-Off for Rayman Legends.
When it comes to the Wii U, Digitial Foundry is the worst source of information for this hardware.
They write off all benefits shown on the Wii U's versions of games and sometimes even outright lie to downplay it like they did with that Splinter Cell Blacklist faceoff. They contradicted themselves and their own footage. Their bias outweighs their analysis.
I wouldn't invest 2 cents in their faceoffs unless its just inbetween the PS3/360(in which case they still seem to largely favor Sony). The Lens of Truth has proven the far superior and more accurate source of analysis in recent times.
They didn't say anything bad about the Wii U version of Rayman and actually labeled it as the definitive version. The article was fairly unbiased.
lostinblue
Banned
They usually favor Microsoft not Sony.
Ray Tracing is not a shader code and it's not a switch; it's raping whatever hardware you have in order to simulate something you can do cheaper via other methods; so on PS4 if you went that route you'd probably end up with something more akin to a PS2 game; it's not gonna happen.
It also likes double precision floating point, which kills pretty much anything.
It's not being used in games and even some 3D modeling plugins are starting to stray away from it, as calculating the trajectory of every ray of light is clearly overkill.
They don't explicitly say anything good either and still promoted the PS3/360 version as hard as they could next to it. That is something they don't do when the shoe is on the other foot. Just read the Trine 2 analysis or the Most Wanted.
Generally they downplay flaws in comparison on the PS3 and 360 version of the games as well as make excuses for them while blowing them up when the Wii U version shows one an always attribute it to the capability of the console and nothing else. The lens of truth anlysis and DF analysis of SC: Blacklist were like night and day.
Just wait for the Deus Ex 3 Director's Cut face-off. I'm expecting another Blacklist with that one.
All in all, they're faceoffs really don't tell us much about Latte.
Horse Armour
Member
Does anyone know why the Wii U does not support full RGB output? I'm struggling to think of a reason and it only results in washed out screenshots when viewed on monitors.
lostinblue
Banned
Nintendo's approach is one size fits all; like how Wii mode when Wii U launched allowed sound over HDMI to be mirrored via the analog out (handy when you're feeding it to a stereo/receiver without HDMI); only to be nuked on a later update. 5.1 LPCM also being pretty brutal, they could have conceived a way to output 5.1 in some analog way via adapters, even without Dolbi Digital support/fee's.
Nintendo thinks choices and options, are just one more form of confusion for the consumer (and then they have to give customer support); Wii Mini even removed component support, I'm guessing for the very same reason.
freezamite
Banned
The problem here is that you're mistaken about the light sources (although the error is not your fault but Jack Cayman's who explained them wrong).I fully understand that you won't be convinced by this, but whatever.
I don't even see any reflections in this image at all:
The red bit is a glossy specular highlight, this stuff is common all over and doesn't involve raytracing.
Green parts are stupid lens flare cluttering up the scene, plus some bloom.
Blue parts are weird lit parts that don't make any sense given the direction of the light inferred from the specularity in the red circle.
Yellow part looks like geo but could potentially be misconstrued as a reflection.
Maybe there are cube maps in there but they are very subtle. Either way much of the scene looks "off" given the weird inconsistently lit stuff.
There are two fonts of light here, the first one is the sunlight, which is represented by the green circle at the top of your image.
The second one is the engine of the space-ship, which is located at the bottom part of it (there is a small blue circle made by you, the light is casted from here).
The blue circle at the top of the spaceship is another light of the ship, but a small one that doesn't has much impact on the surroundings or any at all.
Then the red circle on the wet ground is the reflection of the light of the engine. and the reflections on the onion ship (the green circle at the right and the blue circle at the onion itself) are reflections of the reflections of that same light.
The yellow circle is probably a Pikmin.
phosphor112
Banned
What about this reflection ?
Is it raytracing?
No, looks like normal and specular maps. This isn't the thread to ask about PS4 games. I was just using PS4 games as an example of specular mapping (it's easy to find examples of recent games when those are the most posted pictures at the moment).
Jack Cayman
Banned
Also the reason I was so confused was the Killzone Shadow Fall for real time reflections.
http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=63426
I never said that the source of light was from the water reflection as rather it was diffused from the sun light source from above that's why I was confused about ray tracing as I was explained. Either way I was misinformed about the use of ray tracing and how it works so it is my fault for the confusion of the above post.
Also the new engines and shaders is not my strong point because now I am starting to dive into that department of coding before I was using maya and 3D studio max 5 which this kind of effects was made manually or coding in open gl. I am doing part time animation as a hobby but I am not very good at it
!!!Apophis2036
Banned
Relax, someone was showing a graphical technique that another poster was mistaking for ray tracing on the WiiU.
So because they don't agree with your perception of the hardware they are 'the worst source of information'.
Digital Foundry has been used for years as the premium source for console face off's, just because you don't like what you are hearing (which is about right from the WiiU games I have played) doesn't mean they are no longer relevant lol...
Do you actually own a WiiU Krizzx ?.
Relax yourself. It was a question.
And they don't agree with my perception? What does my perception have to do with this? Do you even know how I perceive this? Stop projecting.
Jack Cayman
Banned
Technical analysis is not a matter of opinion, they are real facts. Rayman again is no game to show if the Wii U is more capable than current gen systems but DF are blatantly lie about IQ on Xbox 360 I have already looked screen by screen comparison from both versions, Xbox 360 do not support 1080p natively it is missing a lot of stuff like particles and smoke effects plus background because it is zoomed(less pixel-lower resolution) which digital foundry do not mention on their face-off. The Ps3 even is running natively 1080p but suffers from the same issues like missing particles and smoke, flame effects but the IQ is intact. Also on the Wii U the background animated images are super smooth, like flames-smoke-arrows in castle rock which on the other versions are like animated 3 frame gifs.
Again this not a game breaking point for the other versions and rayman fans as they said in the end but Wii U version is the best version in graphics and gameplay so it makes it the definite version. If you want compromises and off course you do not own a Wii U the other versions is a must for this beautiful game.
Are you sure this is all true, Jack?
The X360 supports 1080p output and Rayman Origins did run at that resolution.
In addition it is a 2D game, so running it at 1080p should not be impossible.
I do agree that it probably isn't a good indicator of how the performance of the WiiU compares to PS360.
The X360 supports 1080p output and Rayman Origins did run at that resolution.
In addition it is a 2D game, so running it at 1080p should not be impossible.
I do agree that it probably isn't a good indicator of how the performance of the WiiU compares to PS360.
Unless DF lied so far as to label images "360" when they were from another platform, this is false. I don't have much in the way of pixel-counting experience, but it's not hard to recognize native-res geometry. The jaggies in all of those images line up exactly with the 1920x1080 pixel grid, no scaling artifacts or anything.
Mind pointing to examples? The screenshots I'm looking at seem to have pretty close parity in visual makeup. Sometimes there's a more diverse set of assets being used on the WiiU version, likely due to the larger memory pool, and for the same reason I wouldn't be surprised if you're correct that the WiiU's backgrounds have more animation frames. But I'm not seeing a great deal of evidence that the PS360 are rendering less stuff per frame.
Jack Cayman
Banned
You can check out yourself, if you have the means. But from what I saw it is zoomed. I will try to post some screens later.
Also Origins did not run natively 1080 on xbox 360. Only PC and Ps3 Versions were running on 1080 native resolution.
I have not been able to find any hint that the X360 version of Origins does not run at native 1080p, not on Beyond3d nor anywhere else. I don't think there is any reason why it shouldn't.
Do you have any sources for the Rayman Origins/Legends x360 pixel count?
Jack Cayman
Banned
Here is a link from b3d that all of the games in Xbox 360 running most in 720p resolutions rayman is not included but from the point that Xbox 360 Xenos GPU is designed for 720p resolutions Rayman Origins is no exception to the rule. Plus if you put the game side by side with the Ps3 version and the PC in real time(this is what I did) it is quite obvious the image quality is more blurry on the Xbox 360 because of the upscaler of the machine. If you have the game try it in you xbox 360 in different resolutions changing the setting from the dashboard in 720p and 1080p to see where the game looks more sharp, you would be surprised. But enough with the off topic.
http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1113344&postcount=3
If I had a video caption card I would post some videos and try to use some in-depth analysis about Rayman Legends. Tomorrow I would look for a good caption card to post some screens and videos.
Rayman Origins is not listed in that link.
So that is no confirmation.
What are listed, however, are several 1080p native X360 games. Some even with 4xAA.
Actual 3d games, not 2d-games like Rayman.
The fact that there are several sub-HD games on the system does not mean that it cannot output a full 1080p image.
I'm rather skeptical of your competence when it comes to determining technical details like this based on screenshots after the whole raytracing fiasco.
So that is no confirmation.
What are listed, however, are several 1080p native X360 games. Some even with 4xAA.
Actual 3d games, not 2d-games like Rayman.
The fact that there are several sub-HD games on the system does not mean that it cannot output a full 1080p image.
I'm rather skeptical of your competence when it comes to determining technical details like this based on screenshots after the whole raytracing fiasco.
Jack Cayman
Banned
No problem just check it yourself, I am no specialist in graphics but I am trying to learn more stuff as I move forward, I haven't put too much effort in this gen for technical stuff like shaders and other specific visual effect languages. It is a hobby not a vindication contest for me, if I do not know something I am more that willing to be corrected from someone with more experience and knowledge than me.
phosphor112
Banned
You made the claims, the burden of proof is on you. Just like how you claimed there was Ray Tracing, when in fact there wasn't.
Here is the PC picture of Rayman Legends
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/2/3/1/6/PC_000.bmp.jpg
Here is the 360 version of the same scene. Use the cage to compare as you can see the aliasing, allowing you to compare the two.
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/2/3/1/6/360_000.bmp.jpg
Here is the Wii U picture just for the comparison.
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/2/3/1/6/WiiU_000.bmp.jpg
Same native resolutions.
Jack Cayman
Banned
I beg to differ because I saw this versions in my TV with my own eyes if it is so important to prove something to you if I can find a GOOD video capture card I will post direct feed from all versions of the game then you can post all DF screens you want for comparison. For now my TV and my eyes sees different things and from the people that I was with when we did the test agree as well.
phosphor112
Banned
I'm calling you out. You're full of shit. The uncompressed direct captures are there. It's native on all consoles.
Your "eyes" claimed there was ray tracing. Your lack of technical knowledge didn't even understand or know about BASIC specular mapping.
If you want to make claims, back it up with your, so called, "facts."
All I see is just bullshit coming from you.
If you can supply solid capture as evidence, then by all means, do so! DF's images very much imply a 1920x1080 backbuffer on Xbox 360, which would make a backed-up claim to the contrary extremely interesting in all kinds of horrible/awesome ways.
For the time being, you have to understand, it sounds quite fishy when someone says DF is lying... And claims that they ran a multiple-console test on a new low-volume game with a group of people to make a contrary analysis. "No pics no proof no truth" and all that. And Eurogamer? Those guys have pics.
Jack Cayman
Banned
Ok then challenge accepted. I will provide videos in dew time when I will have specific equipment but I want you as well to provide content to see which has the consoles and spend time watching the differences or read and parroting only what DF provides to shit on Wii U threads.
Funny you calling me out about the specular maps and ray tracing but again you said it was SSR(you were wrong as well), at least I had the dignity to accept that I was wrong you continue to say stuff that are not relevant as claiming about the 160 ALUs in the Wii U GPU which are not in anyway proof and you keeps parroting it as the ultimate truth-fact whenever you post.
Which you do not even know how that works.
Anyway right now I do not have the means to post real time feedback for the game little patience until tomorrow to reach a friend who has this kind of equipment to video capture HD direct feed videos and I will post for all us to enjoy.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
All very true.
I was just trying to give a reasonably accurate depiction of ray tracing to someone that didn't really understand the implications of it. Just how much power it would take for realtime rendering over offline renderers. Well... I didn't realize Blue Sky was using ray tracing with their works... but then again I'm not entirely sure I've seen anything from Blue Sky.
Thanks for the explanation Shin! Always appreciated.
Smurfman256
Member
Eeyup, those are 1080p jaggies. I'm looking at them through my 1920x1080 monitor and the jaggy only goes over one pixel. If it was something like 1280x720, it would cross two pixels.
Apart from resolutions, anyone knows why the plants are different in PC/360 versions (although there are not exactly the same they are more similar between them) over WII U?
I speak about the plant under the cage. Maybe different moments?
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