COMICS! |OT| September 2013 - Forever Evil (For A Month), IN 3D (where available)

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I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is a place for the short form, one shot story telling that they've been doing in Legends of the Dark Knight and Adventures of Superman. Don't have to worry about continuity. Just timeless tales of those characters. So many characters should receive that treatment.
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Yeah, there are some truly great character short story comics out there. That Bruce Timm one where Two-Face is "rehabilitated" and starts to date a girl who he finds out has an identical twin and proceeds to mentally revert is some of the most impressive story-telling. And it's just a short little comic.

So what I'm saying is, more short comics focusing on characters other than A-list heroes.
 
Killer Croc is one of those characters that got shittier the longer time went on.

How you go from an ugly but intelligent gangster, to an almost mindless cannibalistic lizard monster, I will never know.
 
Killer Croc is one of those characters that got shittier the longer time went on.

How you go from an ugly but intelligent gangster, to an almost mindless cannibalistic lizard monster, I will never know.

Gotham has more ugly-but-intelligent gangsters than DC knows what to do with, but a dearth of mindless cannibalistic lizard monsters.
 
Gotham has more ugly-but-intelligent gangsters than DC knows what to do with, but a dearth of mindless cannibalistic lizard monsters.

That's true I suppose.
But their never seems to be anything you can write about with Lizard Croc, other than 'he's eeeeven more monstrous now and he ate two whole people'.
 
Ive read the blog twice and it comes off as being egotistical. Like I said, they were not fired, they quit. They quit their "dream job" over an indifference with editorial. If they loved the character like they lead you to believe in the blog, they would have fought through the adversity. I know what you will say, "Korupt, no creator should have limitations". In some cases you may be right, but they did not create Batwoman. You want to know what have been even more creative for them? Finding a way to take the character you love, your dream job and making it work for the better of the creator and the fans. Thats creativity. Shit ill make this into a political statment. Our whole culture is shaped this way these days. We give up at the slighest bit of adversity. Everyone wants the easy way out. Im sorry, I dont see the passion and heavy hearts.

This would make sense if it wasn't a year old plan turned around this close to the finish line. This isn't like they secreted away the plan and didn't have a chance to run it by editorial. This is something the writers clearly planned and corroborated with editorial.

If DC had actually valued the input of one of the best artist currently alive, they would have worked their universe-wide plans AROUND JHWIII's, not scrap a year-long plan and burn one of the best drawn bridges ever.

It's just poor employee management, plain and simple.
 
This would make sense if it wasn't a year old plan turned around this close to the finish line. This isn't like they secreted away the plan and didn't have a chance to run it by editorial. This is something the writers clearly planned and corroborated with editorial.

If DC had actually valued the input of one of the best artist currently alive, they would have worked their universe-wide plans AROUND JHWIII's, not scrap a year-long plan and burn one of the best drawn bridges ever.

It's just poor employee management, plain and simple.


If you read his twitter comments over last night and today, he comes off as not telling the whole truth.
 
Thought it was just gonna be some movie cash in, but yeah guess this will turn out to be important. Wonder if it will be a character we already know.

Seriously hope this doesn't go back to Cyke/Jean. :\


Good write-up Manmademan. Makes sense since they offed a universe a few months back.

Hmm? which universe? AoA? I forgot all about that one.

Also notable is in that interview with brevoort, he mentions that there are images that occur of events that have already happened, and some that are coming up.

At this stage I want to stay sort of quiet about that. I don't want to rule anybody's speculation out and I don't want to reveal anything too definitively other than to say that if you scrutinized the big time-space explosion page you'd see a number of images that have been layered in there. They show events that are going on now in the Marvel Universe, have recently gone on, or will shortly be going on. They all in some way, shape or form reflect or echo from this sort of cataclysmic twisting and ripping up of the space-time continuum.

there are a lot of images here, so hard to say which ones are significant. I don't read THAT many comics, so i might have missed something. however..

In the latest version of superior spiderman, Alchemax identifies three "possible eras" responsible for the time collapse, with the heroic era the most likely, and displays some images on screen.

There are three images here which appear BOTH within alchemax AND within the final pages of AOU as the timestream breaks.

One is the image of the Original 5 Xmen (or 3 of the 5, in the case of superior spiderman), the other is an image of the hulk in some kind of armor, and the third is an image of Kang. AOU shows him with two children, one in each arm, Superior just shows a mugshot.

No clue about the significance of the hulk. That armor looks like his current getup they invented to protect banner, sort of.

The original 5 xmen we already know about- they're massively screwing the timestream over in BOTA right now.

Kang with the children are obviously the apocalypse twins. I don't think they're done with Kang yet- whatever he's doing is likely to be significant. And Kang is the character marvel has that's most closely linked with alterations to time and reality.
 
That's true I suppose.
But their never seems to be anything you can write about with Lizard Croc, other than 'he's eeeeven more monstrous now and he ate two whole people'.

Yeah, I agree with you in that there are more interesting directions to take the character, I just don't think regression is the answer.
 
JMS and Ben Templesmith Split On "Ten Grand"

There are numerous ways a comics team can break up -- some outright acrimonius in their personal exchanges -- but in the case of J. Michael Straczynski and Ben Templesmith, readers may be facing the first split in the business that came with no words at all.

Today, Straczynski took to his Facebook page to announce that he's had to replace Templesmith on their Image Comics series "Ten Grand" due to a lack of communication from the artist. "When we reignited the Joe’s Comics imprint, we took a blood oath that our books would come out on time, no matter what," the writer said. However, Straczynski went on to say that he's not heard word from Templesmith on the latest issues art in over a month, putting the schedule for the book behind. "So on August 27th, I emailed Ben to say that if we didn’t hear something back by the end of that week, even just a text to say he was underwater, that we would have to find another artist. I wanted to give him every possible opportunity to come back and make this work. No reply. Finally, and with tremendous reluctance, I sent him a note on the 31st saying that we were moving on. Our obligation to our readers and the retailers has to come first."

The writer does note in the piece that he's heard through the grapevine that Templesmith is not injured or in poor health and generally praises his work on the series to date

Kind of bizarre? A shame too. The art style of Ten Grande, while strange at first, rapidly grew on me. Hope they find someone with a style that matches the ethereal tone of the book.
 
hmm? can you elaborate?

Kang sends the x-men into the future where the hulk is really old




They discover this where is you look closely you see marvels next few big events. Even all new x-men this there

1285356236.jpg
 
Ive read the blog twice and it comes off as being egotistical. Like I said, they were not fired, they quit. They quit their "dream job" over an indifference with editorial. If they loved the character like they lead you to believe in the blog, they would have fought through the adversity. I know what you will say, "Korupt, no creator should have limitations". In some cases you may be right, but they did not create Batwoman. You want to know what have been even more creative for them? Finding a way to take the character you love, your dream job and making it work for the better of the creator and the fans. Thats creativity. Shit ill make this into a political statment. Our whole culture is shaped this way these days. We give up at the slighest bit of adversity. Everyone wants the easy way out. Im sorry, I dont see the passion and heavy hearts.
LOL you'd rather call creators a blight on society than admit that DC fucked up. You truly are the fan they deserve.
 
Kang sends the x-men into the future where the hulk is really old

They discover this where is you look closely you see marvels next few big events. Even all new x-men this there

Ah, I missed that story, but it doesn't appear to be the same hulk. This one is younger (only as old as current hulk), and wearing a suit that looks like the current one banner wears all over the place.

lol. I answered my own question, looking for an example. it's this image.

[
detail.jpg
 
Why does Hulk need armour?

Isn't his skin tough enough?

Hulk's skin is perfectly fine. they developed an armor for him so that when he goes back to banner, banner isn't nude and defenseless. The armor expands.

That particular suit looks a little different than the original armor they came up with for that purpose, however.
 
LOL you'd rather call creators a blight on society than admit that DC fucked up. You truly are the fan they deserve.


Im not ashamed being a DC fan. Is that supposed to make me feel bad? Am I below you because I support DC? Is me being a fan of DC ruining the comics industry? Ruining your enjoyment of comics?
 
Im not ashamed being a DC fan. Is that supposed to make me feel bad? Am I below you because I support DC? Is me being a fan of DC ruining the comics industry? Ruining your enjoyment of comics?

...it has nothing to do with you being a fan of DC. Are you serious?

But calling the creator a blight and telling them to suck it up and just deal with whatever "adversity" the editorial staff throws at them is not conducive to a great creative environment. Any and all creators will tell you the same.

Unless you meant you're a fan of DC's administrative side vice their creative side. In which case, that's an interesting position to take.
 
Im not ashamed being a DC fan. Is that supposed to make me feel bad? Am I below you because I support DC? Is me being a fan of DC ruining the comics industry? Ruining your enjoyment of comics?
I just think your attitude toward creators fucking sucks. It sucks to see comic fans putting the wants of huge corporations over the people who actually write and draw the books. That shit is below stupid to me.
 
I just think your attitude toward creators fucking sucks. It sucks to see comic fans putting the wants of huge corporations over the people who actually write and draw the books. That shit is below stupid to me.

Especially when Marvel has shown that you can get out of creators' way and they can give you great and popular and world consistencizing stories all on their own (Hickman's FF/Avengers, Aaron/Remender's Uncanny X-Force/WatXM, Infinity, etc.)
 
Putting up with three significant editorial changes to three separate long-running plot threads across a period of years is not "giving up at the slightest bit of adversity." That doesn't even make sense.
 
Shitty company and fan working together to create a toxic environment for creators.

I suppose that really depends on what the fan is doing. Are they just an enthusiastic reader? Then I don't see how they can ever be blamed for anything that goes on at a company because what you would ask of them, say, boycotting books, isn't something that they likely want to do. I'm all about taking a company to task but unless a fan is spewing vitriol, making personal attacks, or something that actually causes harm, calling them out is meaningless.

My approach has always been one of pragmatism. The idea that a company is specifically targeting creators and attempting to hamstring their efforts in some sort of machiavellian game, is just absurd. I firmly believe that there is something going on, sure, but I imagine the truth lies somewhere in a more mundane reality like responding to poor sales of books. It isn't a one to one, but the vast majority of editorial interference has appeared to lie with those titles that are doing poorly or eventually got cancelled. Some of the more high profile, ones, however, seem more connected to "world building" disagreements, such as the rumor that there is going to be another Earth 2 book and Robinson left because he wasn't going to be writing it. Batwoman may fall into this one or it may have been because its dipping sales.

Real Talk: I'm a fan of DC characters. I'm not going to suddenly switch allegiences and start reading Marvel. They just don't interest me. So, as a fan, I have to weigh my enjoyment in books (which I still have) versus response to creators vs. editorial. I am not going to stop getting a book out of protest. So ones options are limited.
 
I just think your attitude toward creators fucking sucks. It sucks to see comic fans putting the wants of huge corporations over the people who actually write and draw the books. That shit is below stupid to me.

My point is we dont know the big picture. My point is in these very threads since I have been coming here, people have hate on everything DC has done. Trinty War, turned out good, Zero Year, turned out good now Villains month and Forever Evil which looks to be just as quality as the rest. Everything gets questioned with a negative attitude and it turns out people like it.
 
My point is we dont know the big picture. My point is in these very threads since I have been coming here, people have hate on everything DC has done. Trinty War, turned out good, Zero Year, turned out good now Villains month and Forever Evil which looks to be just as quality as the rest. Everything gets questioned with a negative attitude and it turns out people like it.

That's not even true. Hello, we're upset that a DC book is being gutted?!

The console fanboyism but for a comic label is just...bad. Very bad.
 
My point is we dont know the big picture. My point is in these very threads since I have been coming here, people have hate on everything DC has done. Trinty War, turned out good, Zero Year, turned out good now Villains month and Forever Evil which looks to be just as quality as the rest. Everything gets questioned with a negative attitude and it turns out people like it.

See, this is a real pitfall of your arguments in general. You claim "People hate on this, but it turned out to be good."

There is no sound logic to this assessment. It's actually "Some people hate on this but it turns out I like it." It has nothing to do with prejudice, just subjective enjoyment.
 
You think that'd Bruce Banner would be less ashamed of his body, after waking up naked every time he hulked out.
 
See, this is a real pitfall of your arguments in general. You claim "People hate on this, but it turned out to be good."

There is no sound logic to this assessment. It's actually "Some people hate on this but it turns out I like it." It has nothing to do with prejudice, just subjective enjoyment.

There is no logic to ever calling anything good or anything bad by that logic. You can only say whether it was successful financially. In the case of this thread community, you can have a general consensus, which is what was probably being referenced.
 
There is no logic to ever calling anything good or anything bad by that logic. You can only say whether it was successful. In the case of this thread community, you can have a general consensus, which is what was probably being referenced.

There can never be consensus, especially on a message board of individual posts and posters. Just because a bunch of people don't like something doesn't make them wrong or willful or ignorant, which is what he's accusing people of.
 
There can never be consensus, especially on a message board of individual posts and posters. Just because a bunch of people don't like something doesn't make them wrong or willful or ignorant, which is what he's accusing people of.


I didnt say that all. Dont put words in my mouth. All we do in here is discuss what we read and what we may read in the future. Its the future part that causes problems. What if Batwoman get tied into the DCU even more and it makes her book even better? What if new creators take over and its better. We dont know.
 
There is no logic to ever calling anything good or anything bad by that logic. You can only say whether it was successful financially. In the case of this thread community, you can have a general consensus, which is what was probably being referenced.

Which still isn't accurate. Just from the first page. Each page has people loving DC, disliking DC, liking Marvel, disliking Marvel, liking some Marvel, hating some Marvel, liking some DC, hating some DC.

And a TON of smaller press love.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79246613&postcount=10
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79251989&postcount=19
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79413005&postcount=87
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79288565&postcount=37
 
My point is we dont know the big picture. My point is in these very threads since I have been coming here, people have hate on everything DC has done. Trinty War, turned out good, Zero Year, turned out good now Villains month and Forever Evil which looks to be just as quality as the rest. Everything gets questioned with a negative attitude and it turns out people like it.
We hate on these stupid editorial decisions because DC is losing tons of talent as a result. You think it's a good thing that people keep leaving to go work somewhere they find more fulfilling? JHIII is an INCREDIBLE artist and DC just lost him because they couldn't help trying to make last minute changes to stories he had had plotted out for years. I'm not going to debate the merits of their stories with you because that's subjective and frankly I don't care. What I do find repulsive is your attitude toward creators.

I suppose that really depends on what the fan is doing. Are they just an enthusiastic reader? Then I don't see how they can ever be blamed for anything that goes on at a company because what you would ask of them, say, boycotting books, isn't something that they likely want to do. I'm all about taking a company to task but unless a fan is spewing vitriol, making personal attacks, or something that actually causes harm, calling them out is meaningless.

My approach has always been one of pragmatism. The idea that a company is specifically targeting creators and attempting to hamstring their efforts in some sort of machiavellian game, is just absurd. I firmly believe that there is something going on, sure, but I imagine the truth lies somewhere in a more mundane reality like responding to poor sales of books. It isn't a one to one, but the vast majority of editorial interference has appeared to lie with those titles that are doing poorly or eventually got cancelled. Some of the more high profile, ones, however, seem more connected to "world building" disagreements, such as the rumor that there is going to be another Earth 2 book and Robinson left because he wasn't going to be writing it. Batwoman may fall into this one or it may have been because its dipping sales.

Real Talk: I'm a fan of DC characters. I'm not going to suddenly switch allegiences and start reading Marvel. They just don't interest me. So, as a fan, I have to weigh my enjoyment in books (which I still have) versus response to creators vs. editorial. I am not going to stop getting a book out of protest. So ones options are limited.
Dude at some point you have to question why DC has had such a massive hemorrhage of creators, right? Surely it can't all be happenstance when almost every creator is citing editorial differences or interference as a reason to leave. You being a DC fan is fine but Korupt going and shitting on creators is garbage, I cannot stand that shit.
 
Guys, can we just talk about that fuck-awesome Two-Face issue with the rad-ass 3-d cover?
 
Dude at some point you have to question why DC has had such a massive hemorrhage of creators, right? Surely it can't all be happenstance when almost every creator is citing editorial differences or interference as a reason to leave. You being a DC fan is fine but Korupt going and shitting on creators is garbage, I cannot stand that shit.

Sure, I question it, but as I mentioned before I have to weigh my enjoyment of books themselves versus the ongoing controversy behind it. How often have I read a book that was just amazing and that had editorial interference? I don't know. If they are as bad as it seems in that department, you'd think that every title would be shit. But the vast majority of their line is something that I genuinely enjoy. There are obviously duds, both in story arcs and single issues, but as a whole I enjoy what I read.

So I ask you; What would you do in that situation? One where you have no desire to cancel any book in protest? Because the only thing I've been able to do is try to understand what they are going for, adapt, and move on.

Which still isn't accurate. Just from the first page. Each page has people loving DC, disliking DC, liking Marvel, disliking Marvel, liking some Marvel, hating some Marvel, liking some DC, hating some DC.

Sure, but I could go through this thread alone and point out that, for example, Battle of the Atom is getting massive love from just about everyone. So it's all peoples opinions, but the consensus is that, as of two issues in, it's a good event/cross over title. Some events get shit on and turn out, to most people good, or start hyped and turn out to most people, shit. You can have consensus.
 
...

So there you have it- marvel is clearly on a path to restructure and/or wipe out a big chunk of the multiverse across their largest titles. I don't think they'll go full on "flashpoint" or "new 52" as DC did, but a simplification of the current status quo is inevitable.

If true I'll be really really impressed with Marvel, because they would have laid the groundwork in a spectacular fashion. Something is definitely going to go down though, almost every story lately has some timetravel or dimension hopping element in it. Now that I realise that, I'm very interested to see where it goes next, especially is BotA and Infinity weave together somehow. That would be a mindfuck.
 
I suppose that really depends on what the fan is doing. Are they just an enthusiastic reader? Then I don't see how they can ever be blamed for anything that goes on at a company because what you would ask of them, say, boycotting books, isn't something that they likely want to do. I'm all about taking a company to task but unless a fan is spewing vitriol, making personal attacks, or something that actually causes harm, calling them out is meaningless.

My approach has always been one of pragmatism. The idea that a company is specifically targeting creators and attempting to hamstring their efforts in some sort of machiavellian game, is just absurd. I firmly believe that there is something going on, sure, but I imagine the truth lies somewhere in a more mundane reality like responding to poor sales of books. It isn't a one to one, but the vast majority of editorial interference has appeared to lie with those titles that are doing poorly or eventually got cancelled. Some of the more high profile, ones, however, seem more connected to "world building" disagreements, such as the rumor that there is going to be another Earth 2 book and Robinson left because he wasn't going to be writing it. Batwoman may fall into this one or it may have been because its dipping sales.

Real Talk: I'm a fan of DC characters. I'm not going to suddenly switch allegiences and start reading Marvel. They just don't interest me. So, as a fan, I have to weigh my enjoyment in books (which I still have) versus response to creators vs. editorial. I am not going to stop getting a book out of protest. So ones options are limited.

This is some weird cognitive dissonance and, unless I'm misreading your post, it sounds like you're more vested in just these characters having comic books rather than those books actually being good.

I actually don't think the idea that DC is deliberating hamstringing creators is all that far-fetched. It does sound kind of ridiculous, but when you consider the amount of talent that the company has been bleeding over the last couple years for short-term stunts like Forever Evil, it makes sense. I don't think Dan DiDio is a monster but when you consider that Forever Evil was born out of his recognition of the prevalence of anti-heroes in TV shows nowadays - a trend he *just* noticed despite going back over 10 years now - it's not a stretch to think that DiDio isn't someone who can see the forest for the trees and is generally just slow on the uptake.
 
Sure, but I could go through this thread alone and point out that, for example, Battle of the Atom is getting massive love from just about everyone. So it's all peoples opinions, but the consensus is that, as of two issues in, it's a good event/cross over title. Some events get shit on and turn out, to most people good, or start hyped and turn out to most people, shit. You can have consensus.

Of course. But there is no consensus that DC is all bad and that people who like DC are bad or that people dislike people who like DC.
 
Yeah fuck DC. One book closer to reading no DC titles.

Wonder Woman is my last DC book and I have a feeling Azarello could be next to jump.

It seems like Marvel values creators, while DC values speculator culture and people who will buy every single variant. Forever evil is one of the stupidest ideas in modern comics.

I just love that Harras could get hired there after all the shit he pulled at Marvel.

Especially after saying this: We see writer-driven comics as an experiment that has failed

Seems like they're holding true to that, even after all these years!
 
This is some weird cognitive dissonance and, unless I'm misreading your post, it sounds like you're more vested in just these characters having comic books rather than those books actually being good.

Yes and no. My history with comic books comes from series that often were on the razors edge. Your options were "take what you're given" or the series gets canceled. (Legion, Power Girl, stuff of that nature). I tend to grow attached to the "idea" of a character more so than any one specific storyline. I love the Legion because they represent human idealism in the future, the embodiment of Superman's heroism, taken up by a group of (at the time) teenagers who wanted to make the world a better place. Because of that pure, simple love, it didn't matter when a book was good or bad, because the idea of the book still existed.

Now, as a much more intense comic book buyer, I am exposed to many more titles. And that same, simple appreciation, means that even in the darkest times of a book, I know it will eventually get better and even when they are mediocre, I find something good about them.
 
it didn't matter when a book was good or bad, because the idea of the book still existed.

This kind of thinking is what has reinforced DC's own position. I'd say the majority of comic buyers think like you. They just don't drop books due to some weird combination of OCD nostalgia.

So the books sell, but for the wrong reasons.
 
Yes and no. My history with comic books comes from series that often were on the razors edge. Your options were "take what you're given" or the series gets canceled. (Legion, Power Girl, stuff of that nature). I tend to grow attached to the "idea" of a character more so than any one specific storyline. I love the Legion because they represent human idealism in the future, the embodiment of Superman's heroism, taken up by a group of (at the time) teenagers who wanted to make the world a better place. Because of that pure, simple love, it didn't matter when a book was good or bad, because the idea of the book still existed.

Now, as a much more intense comic book buyer, I am exposed to many more titles. And that same, simple appreciation, means that even in the darkest times of a book, I know it will eventually get better and even when they are mediocre, I find something good about them.

Hey, if they bring in a creative team that treats Kate with the respect the character deserves and has the unique visual flair fans have come to expect from the book, I will happily, happily eat crow.

But it's hard to imagine that they - right now - give a shit about the characters or fans by issuing meaningless ultimatums about the direction a unique aspect of the book was handled (an adult relationship with actual progression between two minority characters is very rare).

Believe me, I want the book to remain my favorite. I don't want them to fridge Maggie, OMD the relationship or throw unnecessary drama in the mix because shut-ins can't relate to forming relationships.

And there just simply isn't any replacing JH, which sucks, but it more easy to deal with. Creators never last forever on books.
 
In GrandHarrier's defense, I don't think it is *that* uncommon among comic book fans to have more allegiance to the intellectual property of a brand than to the creators who breathe life into that property, or even the quality of the book. It's an atittude I saw often when I posted on newsarama years ago.

I mean, I got back into comics because of the New 52 and wasn't reading a single Marvel book at the time, even though I grew up a Marvel zombie. I tried every single one of them. Now that that is effectively reversed, with 3 DC books I am still following and many times that in Marvel, I'm enjoying myself a heck of a lot more. While I'd argue that overall quality IS still the biggest factor here, I'd also concede that my familiarity with the characters is a significant part of the fun.
 
Yes and no. My history with comic books comes from series that often were on the razors edge. Your options were "take what you're given" or the series gets canceled. (Legion, Power Girl, stuff of that nature). I tend to grow attached to the "idea" of a character more so than any one specific storyline. I love the Legion because they represent human idealism in the future, the embodiment of Superman's heroism, taken up by a group of (at the time) teenagers who wanted to make the world a better place. Because of that pure, simple love, it didn't matter when a book was good or bad, because the idea of the book still existed.

Now, as a much more intense comic book buyer, I am exposed to many more titles. And that same, simple appreciation, means that even in the darkest times of a book, I know it will eventually get better and even when they are mediocre, I find something good about them.

heh, that's actually a very heartwarming sentiment, though definitely one I could never emulate for a number of reasons, many of them financial. :lol
 
With indie comics being so great it has really made me appreciate creators more than ever. IP is becoming less and less important to me. I don't feel the need to buy a mediocre book just because it has a character I like in it anymore. It's a liberating feeling and I can use that money to try out a new indie instead of being shackled to some dumb brand or character loyalty. Creators drive this business.

I definitely do understand that mentality though, it can be tough to give up characters you love even when the book they're in is less than great.
 
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