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[Impeccable]

Its in the OP:

That's the "PureXbox" stuff.

 

[Night Angel]

That's the "PureXbox" stuff.

And is that somehow an unacceptable source, or...?

 

[Gestault]

350 people saw this, why has no one spoken up?

Since this occurred at an event being covered by other journalists and media, I feel like substantiating the details of the claim would be something that can and *should* be done.

 

[Pie and Beans]

That's the "PureXbox" stuff.

Are you Xbox-ist or something? Don't make this about console wars for lords sake.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Can anyone link me to "the otherside" without giving me a link to "PureXbox"?

Do we have the story from any reputable sources yet?

There's no other link.

And is that somehow an unacceptable source, or...?

I never ever heard of that site before. It could be a great source. It could be Xbox exclusive Kotaku. How should I know if no one is verifying anything and they say it's an "exclusive" story.

 

[BronsonLee]

Well, he referred to her as "this person" because he couldn't make out the gender, which is understandable if you ask me.
She on the other hand came up with a number of accusations which are, according to Millward, misunderstandings.
And I believe him, because why would he lie about something that was beeing watched by several hundred witnesses?

The two need to talk to each other and clear things up.
Nobody needs to apologize publicly here.

Then apologize for that and say it was a misunderstanding and move on, not try and call her credibility into question, accuse her of a crime because she accused you of one, then get mad at her for not handling it face to face instead of 'on Twitter'.

They need to handle this privately, but nothing would have come of it if she hadn't mentioned it publicly.

You're ignoring other motives. If someone came out swinging that I was behaving in a fashion that I did not... my first instincts would not be to sit on my thumbs and let that train build up a head of steam. I wouldn't be looking to apologise to my accuser either.

What's wrong with just saying we don't know right now? Why try and cast premature aspersions against anyone?

Notice how the studio rep apologized, and he didn't? This dude got trumped out here to explain himself, not fight his accuser. This ends bad.

 

[Shane]

So far we have one Tweeter that reacted supporting Laura's view but we're not sure if he was actually there and heard it or simple accepted her tweets as facts, and in this thread a GAFfer was there and said this has been hugely overblown. So, very much at completely equal he said, she said.

I doubt Mike was there at the moment as he'd have been with his game in the Indie area, which was on the far side of the ground floor. This - if it's where I recall - was in the middle. Plus it was to win free stuff, so I don't see why Mike would have been taking time out there from showing his latest game off.

 

[Warmijwilf]

That's the "PureXbox" stuff.

I REALLY doubt they'd just make something up. It'd be blatantly obvious if Fraser Millward ever talked about it and said he never said such things. It'd be far, far too risky for it to just be blatant lies. I think we should take it as fact he said it, honestly.

Also the title of this thread should really be changed to something like "Confusion: Possible transphobia at Eurogamer" or something, the thread title acts like it's fact.

 

[Dabanton]

Are you Xbox-ist or something? Don't make this about console wars for lords sake.

I was going to joke I have a link from PureSony just for him as that seems more up his street.

 

[Impeccable]

I've already gone over this. I find a website which has a clear bias, which I've never heard of before this debacle having the official be-all-end-all statement of "the other side" confusing considering we know more trustworthy video game journalistic websites have actively reached out for similar statements.

Instead of re-hashing the whole thing again just flutter back a few pages and read the exchanges I've already had on this matter.

 

[CookTrain]

Notice how the studio rep apologized, and he didn't? This dude got trumped out here to explain himself, not fight his accuser. This ends bad.

But as others have already noticed, the rep apologised for her consternation, not for whatever alleged events took place. "I'm sorry you are upset" is not the kind of apology that would defuse any of this.

 

[Warmijwilf]

I've already gone over this. I find a website which has a clear bias, which I've never heard of before this debacle having the official be-all-end-all statement of "the other side" confusing considering we know more trustworthy video game journalistic websites have actively reached out for similar statements.

Instead of re-hashing the whole thing again just flutter back a few pages and read the exchanges I've already had on this matter.

Oh come on, just because the site is bias to Microsoft does not mean they can get away with making up quotes or something. Why would they bother? Use your brain. It completely risks the future of the site to do such a thing, the idea that it's all just lies is absolute nonsense. Seriously.

 

[Kikujiro]

Reading the update it seems like it was a misunderstanding, I don't see a reason to not believe him, there were other people there, maybe someone will confirm/deny.

I still remember the Minecraft Expo "incident" when some people went on twitter shouting sexism here and there and it was bullshit over nothing. Not to say this is the case, but I prefer not to jump on the hate train before having a better picture of the situation.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I doubt Mike was there at the moment as he'd have been with his game in the Indie area, which was on the far side of the ground floor. This - if it's where I recall - was in the middle. Plus it was to win free stuff, so I don't see why Mike would have been taking time out there from showing his latest game off.

The timeline of tweets seems to support he just took her tweets at face value as well. So really, we look to be leaning towards this potentially being completely overblown. Twitter strikes again.

 

[fijim]

Then apologize for that and say it was a misunderstanding and move on, not try and call her credibility into question, accuse her of a crime because she accused you of one, then get mad at her for not handling it face to face instead of 'on Twitter'.

They need to handle this privately, but nothing would have come of it if she hadn't mentioned it publicly.

If you made a mistake and said something insensitive, and then the person turns around and accuses you of saying much worse things and tries to start a witch hunt against you are you going to be in a forgiving mood?

 

[BronsonLee]

But as others have already noticed, the rep apologised for her consternation, not for whatever alleged events took place. "I'm sorry you are upset" is not the kind of apology that would defuse any of this.

Because that's not for the rep to do. That's for this guy to do. They're obviously not going to take responsibility for it, especially legally. That's for this guy to do. Instead he's claiming defamation and such, which...is shaky.

If you made a mistake and said something insensitive, and then the person turns around and accuses you of saying much worse things and tries to start a witch hunt against you are you going to be in a forgiving mood?

If I made a mistake, I'd certainly say so, not accuse said person of making the entire thing up, which he came pretty damn close to doing, no?

Whatever occurred, he could've easily got in front of it by apologizing there. He clearly did not.

 

[charlequin]

Anyone can make claims or indeed mistakenly misheard something themselves.

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

 

[RexPower]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

 

[CookTrain]

Because that's not for the rep to do. That's for this guy to do. They're obviously not going to take responsibility for it, especially legally. That's for this guy to do. Instead he's claiming defamation and such, which...is shaky.

Why is it shaky? It's only shaky if he said it. If he didn't do it... well he'd probably want to claim defamation and such. Kinda like he is doing.

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

The instinct of many other groups (probably even more than you claim) is to sit with the "No smoke without fire" position. Denials can even make it worse because (again, as seen in this very thread), people will say "Of course they'd deny it!".

 

[Warmijwilf]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

Hahaha, what the hell? That is utter crap. People who have been accused of things have generally ALWAYS had a stigma held against them, regardless of if they were found guilty of those things or not.

See Michael Jackson. More people still believe he was a paedophile than the amount of people who even know the names of the people who accused him.

 

[Sentenza]

I've already gone over this. I find a website which has a clear bias, which I've never heard of before this debacle having the official be-all-end-all statement of "the other side"

Do you realize that in this specific circumstance their credibility is not even relevant, as they are just reporting what's the response of Microsoft personnel, presenter included?

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused

Hardly.

 

[Gestault]

If somebody comes up to a comedian dressed as some sort of rainbow horse fantasy creature I see no problem with the comedian using "it" or "thing" as a playful jab.

If you are going to shamelessly appropriate clown culture don't be surprised if people don't take you seriously.

It's very unlikely the journalist was wearing that costume at the time. We don't have enough information to assume a whole lot, going either direction.

 

[SmokyDave]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

Can you elaborate at all? Did you hear him refer to Laura as 'it' at any time?

 

[Pie and Beans]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

So you find a middle ground of "pending evidence/witnesses, either way". Not "accuser gets shot in first, WINS!" as you seem to currently be presenting your ideals.

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

See. This just isn't looking good. She just made like 1000 twitter followers in a period where trans and sexist stuff is big hot topic stuff in gaming news. Theres a fever pitch being created thats getting waaaaay out of control right now.

 

[LordJim]

the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused

Not really, no.
Stigma, especially for more serious offenses stays far more with the accused.
Not to mention the actual punishment as well.

 

[BronsonLee]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

This thread makes my brain hurt.

Why is it shaky? It's only shaky if he said it. If he didn't do it... well he'd probably want to claim defamation and such. Kinda like he is doing.

Because he's claiming he made a mistake, then goes on to say that it was basically completely overblown and she should've handled it better.

Let's be clear here. He's not getting trumped out with the studio rep so they can fight the accusation, he's getting hung out to dry. MS has essentially washed their hands of this. It's entirely on him now, and he basically did a blanket denial.

 

[hohoXD123]

Wish I could corroborate either side of the story since I was there today and did watch a couple of the MS giveaways, but it seems I missed the one this person took part in. Surely someone on here saw it? There was always a sizeable crowd for each giveaway.

 

[Dictator93]

So you find a middle ground of "pending evidence/witnesses, either way". Not "accuser gets shot in first, WINS!" as you seem to currently be presenting your ideals.

.

 

[cheststrongwell]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

People are falsely accused of things all the time. Not saying it happened here, but it isn't rare.

 

[RexPower]

Can you elaborate at all? Did you hear him refer to Laura as 'it' at any time?

No, he did not refer to her as "it" once.

 

[Impeccable]

Oh come on, just because the site is bias to Microsoft does not mean they can get away with making up quotes or something. Why would they bother? Use your brain. It completely risks the future of the site to do such a thing, the idea that it's all just lies is absolute nonsense. Seriously.

You don't question a random website(And yes, bias does factor in here, sorry.) receiving the only unshackled access to Mr. Millward for an official statement?

Many publications have reached out for a statement including Laura, who was denied to speak to the comedian after the event that took place.

What makes PureXbox so special?

 

[polyh3dron]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

Oh so you were there? Any more info you could share?

 

[robotzombie]

Saying that the guy is not a permanent microsoft employee is the lamest excuse possible. You hired the guy to entertain people and promote your products deal, then with it.

You hire a landscaper to redo your lawn. Turns out he uses murdered humans as soil. You hired him, deal with it

 

[Dabanton]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

If a few more people come forward and say the same thing as you then, then I think it will be a cry wolf situation in the future in regards to these kind of stories.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

That's the "PureXbox" stuff.

Ehh, if we're cool with taking facts from sites like DualShockers, I feel like PureXbox should be given a shot.

 

[Pie and Beans]

No, he did not refer to her as "it" once.

Oh dear oh dear.

 

[Gestault]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

Would you mind finding a few examples of people in this thread insisting that denial disproves the accusation?

 

[Rafterman]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

That's the complete opposite of reality.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Oh so you were there? Any more info you could share?

he posted the same thing earlier in the thread. but nothing stops the train...

 

[SmokyDave]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

Oh, I don't know about that. I was once falsely accused of assaulting a woman. I was cleared because in fact she had assaulted me (quite seriously, I have scars still). The police were very understanding (even apologetic as the full story came out), but they did come to my workplace to pull me in for questioning. My colleagues never treated me the same after that and I had to leave shortly afterwards. The woman in question was arrested for assaulting a police officer a few months later.

That said, I totally appreciate that my personal experience may have tainted my view somewhat.

No, he did not refer to her as "it" once.

Oh dear, this'll get messy then. Thanks for answering.

 

[J_Lee]

No, he did not refer to her as "it" once.

I actually believe you as of right now you're the only unbias source, I hope more people come out.

 

[Warmijwilf]

You don't question a random website(And yes, bias does factor in here, sorry.) receiving the only unshackled access to Mr. Millward for an official statement?

Many publications have reached out for a statement including Laura, who was denied to speak to the comedian after the event that took place.

What makes PureXbox so special?

Probably because they have ties to Microsoft?

 

[BosSin]

Sounds like a real shitty situation to me

 

[dengatron]

Because he's claiming he made a mistake, then goes on to say that it was basically completely overblown and she should've handled it better.

The mistake he claimed to have made is to also refer to others on stage as "this person" instead of just Laura. If that's truly the only "mistake" made, why would anyone have to apologize about anything? Someone there already corroborated that he didn't use the term "it". What more is there to her claims at this point?

 

[Lambda Pie]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

it's actually the other way around.

 

[Portugeezer]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

When people are used to being treated a certain way they can mishear certain things.

I'm not saying that is what happened (we don't know), but with Laura being transgender I am sure she has experienced a lot of shit. Now we have two opposing statements from both sides.

 

[Gestault]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

If you can find some way to substantiate being there, or honestly know anyone who was you could get more information from, it would be very helpful to the discussion.

 

[TheRedMan]

No, he did not refer to her as "it" once.

Now I just feel bad for this guy. He will always be tied to this and will always be stained by these false allegations.

 

[The Librarian]

Still baffled that this has become what it is now. The guy didn't do anything wrong, I was watching the whole time. He did not say anything that could have been seen as offensive. I think this Laura Kate person is just attention-seeking. Totally blown out of proportion.

Technically, this journalist is a man, so saying that you're offended by being called one is pretty ridiculous.

First off, let's get one thing straight. She's a woman, so, no, being offended when referred with a masculine pronoun is not ridiculous. It's offensive. Would you walk up to her and refer to her as a "he" in person?

...

I've read through the OP, read most of the thread, and here's what I honestly think.

Now, reading both sides I don't know who to believe. Looking at the pictures of Laura, I wouldn't blame the comedian for calling her a "he" – she seems to be in the early stages of transition and still has many masculine features. It's not entirely clear, from the pictures posted in this thread, that she has boobs.But maybe she was wearing tighter clothing on the day of. Now, I don't know the exact context, but repeatedly calling her he – let alone "it" – if she told him after the first incident, is unacceptable. That's insulting. However, if he was unsure he could've used another address as m0dus pointed out.

I think Microsoft, since they hired him, should apologize as a courtesy, but they're not really to blame here.

 

[Kikujiro]

But people rarely do, because the social consequences for making an accusation of harassment are worse than those for being accused, and because the instinct of most groups (as seen in this very thread) is to immediately take a denial as case closed.

What? Your way of judging things is frightening. You sound like one of those people who live to judge others without any proof and thinking they are morally better. Maybe it makes you feel better, good for you I guess.

So we have already a witness debunking this? But let's just ignore it and accuse this guy basing things on nothing.