US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

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Plan before you have them. I know people currently relying on the program would be affected. That doesn't change my opinion that it should be shut down or massively reformed.

When deciding to have a child you don't plan for one month or one year of costs. You look at your situation and realize that children are dependent on you for 18-25 years or longer. It's called being responsible.

The goal of any welfare program should be to function as a temporary safety net, not to foster permanent assisted living. Unfortunately, many current welfare programs are designed based on feelings and not math. It doesn't work in the long term, and when you're faced with a situation like the current shut down you could end up with a big problem on your hands instead of a smaller one that could be managed at local levels.



I'm all for planning to have kids before you have them, contraception when you can't afford them, and abortion or adoption when you fail the first two steps. I didn't see the person that was quoted say anything against contraception or abortion. I just saw the comment about WIC, which on it's own is completely reasonable.



That's not true.
More people qualify than use it, more people use it than need it, and more people need it than need it because something unforeseeable happened to them.

Ideally Z would equal W. I'd have no problem with such a program as long as it focused on temporary assistance and helping people increase their income through regular means (vocational training, job placement, etc.).



For certain definitions of "helping" and "worthwhile" and "long run", sure.
When you get down to the numbers, those things matter. Do you really think it's reasonable for every US citizen to be footing the food bills for, using your own number, 53% of infants? I think that's absurd. Do you think that's workable in the long run? I don't. Do you think it's really helping people in the long run? I don't. Do their financial needs go away when they age out of eligibility? Nope. What then?

The problem with that logic is that the Republican Party starting with Reagan has destroyed or eroded most of the tools for class mobility.

The USA used to be the American dream, today it's got an abysmal class mobility.

The lift by your bootstraps message only works when it can actually happen.

Hard working people with full time jobs don't make enough to go by without aid.
 
Half the jobs in the nation pay less than $34,000 a year, according to the Economic Policy Institute. A quarter pay below the poverty line for a family of four, less than $23,000 annually.

According to the most recent data available from the Census Bureau, 104 million people — a third of the population — have annual incomes below twice the poverty line, less than $38,000 for a family of three. (Times Opinion Article)

The reality of income inequality and economic conditions means that for a huge portion of Americans earning a living wage that can support a family simply isn't possible. How is it the fault of those in poverty that wages haven't kept pace with productivity? Why is it the fault of those in poverty that America's education system is a complete disaster? Why is it the fault of those in poverty that there is no universal healthcare and uninhibited access to family planning services, sex education, or free contraceptives? People aren't poor because they choose to be, you can't act like there's some limitless spring of high paying jobs that people are simply refusing to try to get.
 
The reality of income inequality and economic conditions means that for a huge portion of Americans earning a living wage that can support a family simply isn't possible. How is it the fault of those in poverty that wages haven't kept pace with productivity? Why is it the fault of those in poverty that America's education system is a complete disaster? Why is it the fault of those in poverty that there is no universal healthcare and uninhibited access to family planning services, sex education, or free contraceptives? People aren't poor because they choose to be, you can't act like there's some limitless spring of high paying jobs that people are simply refusing to try to get.

No no, its just that they're all lazy. All they have to do is work hard. If they worked hard then all of those jobs would start paying more because employers pay based on perceived hard-workingness and not how little they can get away with.

Also people worked harder in the past. Something changed. That made everyone lazy
 
That's not true.
More people qualify than use it, more people use it than need it, and more people need it than need it because something unforeseeable happened to them.

0.001% more is still more. How rampant are the actual abuses of the system? Just because you have a gut feeling that millions are steeling from the hard working tax payers doesn't make it true.
 
No no, its just that they're all lazy. All they have to do is work hard. If they worked hard then all of those jobs would start paying more because employers pay based on perceived hard-workingness and not how little they can get away with.

Also people worked harder in the past. Something changed. That made everyone lazy

....

I vehemently disagree with your assertion that workers today are lazy. The fact there are less jobs mean there's more competition for the ones available. People have to work hard to keep their jobs. In other words, no one's lazy their aren't as many jobs as there were in the past. Employers will not reward employees outside of their regular salary for "working hard".
 
....

I vehemently disagree with your assertion that workers today are lazy. The fact there are less jobs mean there's more competition for the ones available. People have to work hard to keep their jobs. In other words, no one's lazy their aren't as many jobs as there were in the past. Employers will not reward employees outside of their regular salary for "working hard".

your sarcasm detector is broken
 
I have not yet seen it posted, but the NY Times Editorial Board just got quite angry at the House GOP.

NY Times Editorial Board - John Boehner's Shutdown said:
By Tuesday morning, the leadership failure of Speaker John Boehner was complete. In encouraging the impossible quest of House Republicans to dismantle health care reform, he pushed the country into a government shutdown that will now begin to take a grievous economic toll.

At any point, Mr. Boehner could have stopped it. Had he put on the floor a simple temporary spending resolution to keep the government open, without the outrageous demands to delay or defund the health reform law, it could easily have passed the House with a strong majority — including with sizable support from Republican members, many of whom are aware of how badly this collapse will damage their party.

But Mr. Boehner refused. He stood in the well of the House and repeated the tired falsehood that the Affordable Care Act was killing jobs. He came up with a series of increasingly ridiculous demands: defund the health law, delay it for a year, stop its requirement that employers pay for contraception, block the medical device tax, delay the individual mandate for a year, strip Congressional employees of their health subsidies. All were instantly rejected by the Senate. “They’ve lost their minds,” Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader, said of the House Republicans. “They keep trying to do the same thing over and over again.”

Finally, at the last minute, when there was still time to end the charade with a straightforward spending bill, Mr. Boehner made the most absurd demand of all: an immediate conference committee with the Senate. Suddenly, with less than an hour left, he wanted to set up formal negotiations?

For six months, the Senate has been demanding a conference with the House on the 2014 budget — talks that might have prevented the impasse in the first place. But the House leadership has adamantly refused, knowing it would not succeed in getting all the cuts to taxes and spending that it demands. For Mr. Boehner to call for a conference near midnight was the height of hypocrisy.

The consequences of Mr. Boehner’s failure will be immediate: 800,000 government employees thrown out of work, over a million more working without pay, offices that provide important services closed, and programs on which poor people depend — like the Women, Infants and Children nutrition system — cut off. The longer Republicans refuse to approve a rational spending measure, the more federal agencies will be affected and the greater the damage done to an economy still in recovery.

Having let down the public, Republicans will now, inevitably, scramble to save their reputation. They are desperate to make it appear as if President Obama and the Democrats are the ones being intransigent, hoping voters will think that everyone is at fault and simply blame “Washington.” Mr. Boehner even mocked the president on Monday for refusing to negotiate over health reform, as if he actually expected Mr. Obama to join in wrecking a law that will provide health coverage to millions of uninsured Americans under threat of blackmail.

On Tuesday, Republicans came up with another self-serving offer, proposing to open a few government departments whose closures are likely to produce negative news coverage, such as Veterans Affairs and the national parks. Democrats quickly made it clear that only a full reopening of government would suffice, and three of the bills died in the House. More are expected, however.

Earlier in his presidency, Mr. Obama made the catastrophic mistake — in the face of just this sort of extortion — to believe in Mr. Boehner’s willingness to be reasonable. This time, however, the cynical games of the Republicans are not going to work.

The Republicans’ reckless obsession with destroying health reform and with wounding the president has been on full display. And, as the public’s anger grows over this entirely unnecessary crisis, it should be aimed at a party and a speaker that are incapable of governing.
 
....

I vehemently disagree with your assertion that workers today are lazy. The fact there are less jobs mean there's more competition for the ones available. People have to work hard to keep their jobs. In other words, no one's lazy their aren't as many jobs as there were in the past. Employers will not reward employees outside of their regular salary for "working hard".

Its sarcasm man, although I know these days its depressingly hard to tell :/
 
The problem with that logic is that the Republican Party starting with Reagan has destroyed or eroded most of the tools for class mobility.

The USA used to be the American dream, today it's got an abysmal class mobility.

The lift by your bootstraps message only works when it can actually happen.

Hard working people with full time jobs don't make enough to go by without aid.

Enlighten me to how Republican Party has 'destroyed or eroded' class mobility. The economy still isn't what it used to be for many lower class Americans so there is that, but I fail to see how you can blame the conservatives for such a thing.
 
The idea of reopening government by piecemeal is ridiculous. First republicans want to reopen the departments of government that make them look worst by being closed. But then..."You want to reopen another 3 departments? Delay the individual mandate by a year. You want to open 6 departments? Let us pick the next supreme court justice when a vacancy opens up. Oh, you want to fully fund the federal government? Now we're back to defunding Obamacare entirely for that one". It's just a protracted form of blackmail.
 
Enlighten me to how Republican Party has 'destroyed or eroded' class mobility. The economy still isn't what it used to be for many lower class Americans so there is that, but I fail to see how you can blame the conservatives for such a thing.

It's not just about the economy.

Nowadays in the US if you are born in the bottom 20% you have over 40% chance to stay in that bracket.

This is the result if trickle down policy. Taxing the rich to give chances to the rest is at the core of class mobility.
 
We should not buy into the theatrics of a "government shutdown" on either side of the political line. Yes, while there are people who are legitimately on furlough and affected, it should foster a larger debate about what we really need government to be doing for us. Even with the shutdown, "essential" services will continue - the military still functions, Medicare still works, Social Security checks still go out.

The quest should be to truly strip government down to what actually IS essential (this can include healthcare) and that will never happen until people see how much government "does" that we really don't need it to do. There is waster everywhere, from the military down to social programs - both sides and their "fans" (left/right zealots) are too entrenched and prideful to even consider what the other side has to say.

My 2 cents.

Nowadays in the US if you are born in the bottom 20% you have over 40% chance to stay in that bracket.

So what you're saying is you have a better chance of being upwardly mobile than not?
 
We should not buy into the theatrics of a "government shutdown" on either side of the political line. Yes, while there are people who are legitimately on furlough and affected, it should foster a larger debate about what we really need government to be doing for us. Even with the shutdown, "essential" services will continue - the military still functions, Medicare still works, Social Security checks still go out.

The quest should be to truly strip government down to what actually IS essential (this can include healthcare) and that will never happen until people see how much government "does" that we really don't need it to do. There is waster everywhere, from the military down to social programs - both sides and their "fans" (left/right zealots) are too entrenched and prideful to even consider what the other side has to say.
Why is it about what we "need" government to do? Why can't things like national parks be things we "want" government to do? When did government become this thing that we must strip down to bare essentials?
 
Good news everyone!

Because Yoesmite has the only east-west highway in the area (Tioga Pass), the gates remain open so people can get across the mountain.

However, you're not allowed to stop.



Good news everyone!

The reasons the parks are shut down is because rangers don't have funding to enforce laws....meaning....
 
Good news everyone!

Because Yoesmite has the only east-west highway in the area (Tioga Pass), the gates remain open so people can get across the mountain.

However, you're not allowed to stop.



Good news everyone!

The reasons the parks are shut down is because rangers don't have funding to enforce laws....meaning....

Carmen Sandiego is going to steal Half Dome!
 
This will probably come out really stupid since I'm insanely tired
thanks GTA online for screwing me over all night, I just wanna play you!

But I don't have a clue about US politics, I am on my phone so don't really want to mess about googling.. anyway: Why has the US government shutdown? The republicans aren't in power are they? Even if they do, shutting the government down seems like a pointless thing to do.. couldn't they just.. continue as normal whilst continuing the healthcare discussions or whatever? Why do they have such a big say? Why does something like this stop government run services?

/End ignorance
 
This will probably come out really stupid since I'm insanely tired
thanks GTA online for screwing me over all night, I just wanna play you!

But I don't have a clue about US politics, I am on my phone so don't really want to mess about googling.. anyway: Why has the US government shutdown? The republicans aren't in power are they? Even if they do, shutting the government down seems like a pointless thing to do.. couldn't they just.. continue as normal whilst continuing the healthcare discussions or whatever? Why do they have such a big say? Why does something like this stop government run services?

/End ignorance

Short version: Congress has two sections, the house and the senate. Republicans control the house, Dems control the Senate.

One of the jobs of congress is to authorize funding for every year. If they don't, the government shuts down. This is basically never a point of contention. This is about as close to something that everyone just "writes off on" every year as you're going to get.

The house has to send the proposal to the senate, who then passes it on to the president (I think I have this right)

The house has been passing budget proposals that all carry variations on the theme of "delay/repeal Obamacare" because they are insanely sore losers who see this as their last ditch effort to do something. The senate has understandably been saying "no, fuck off you can't just attach whatever wish you want to the proposal. get us something serious"

Now time has run out. No-one blinked.
 
This will probably come out really stupid since I'm insanely tired
thanks GTA online for screwing me over all night, I just wanna play you!

But I don't have a clue about US politics, I am on my phone so don't really want to mess about googling.. anyway: Why has the US government shutdown? The republicans aren't in power are they? Even if they do, shutting the government down seems like a pointless thing to do.. couldn't they just.. continue as normal whilst continuing the healthcare discussions or whatever? Why do they have such a big say? Why does something like this stop government run services?

/End ignorance

Someone will probably give you a better, more detailed answer, but the gist of it is, government can't do anything without a budget (ie money). Republicans control the House, while Democrats control the Senate. It is pointless, but Republicans are using this as an opportunity to try and wipe the government Health care law out. This is the equivalent of a child holding its breathe to get what s/he wants.
 
This will probably come out really stupid since I'm insanely tired
thanks GTA online for screwing me over all night, I just wanna play you!

But I don't have a clue about US politics, I am on my phone so don't really want to mess about googling.. anyway: Why has the US government shutdown? The republicans aren't in power are they? Even if they do, shutting the government down seems like a pointless thing to do.. couldn't they just.. continue as normal whilst continuing the healthcare discussions or whatever? Why do they have such a big say? Why does something like this stop government run services?

/End ignorance

Bit of a video primer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTJubcZFA78
 

heh reminds me of

EeqaWhP.gif
 
Good news everyone!

Because Yoesmite has the only east-west highway in the area (Tioga Pass), the gates remain open so people can get across the mountain.

However, you're not allowed to stop.



Good news everyone!

The reasons the parks are shut down is because rangers don't have funding to enforce laws....meaning....

Picnic Baskets aren't safe anymore?
 
It's not just about the economy.

Nowadays in the US if you are born in the bottom 20% you have over 40% chance to stay in that bracket.

This is the result if trickle down policy. Taxing the rich to give chances to the rest is at the core of class mobility.

How is this going to directly help? Yes we need more money invested into the education system and other certain social service systems, but the problem here is not the total tax money coming in, it is that we choose to spend incoming money in irresponsible ways, things like earmarks and advanced military projects that never see the light of day. It is not like the rich are really 'stealing' the wealth from any one class of America as most of their net worth is calculated through the speculation of price of owned corporate stock, and not actual money.
 
How is this going to directly help? Yes we need more money invested into the education system and other certain social service systems, but the problem here is not the total tax money coming in, it is that we choose to spend incoming money in irresponsible ways, things like earmarks and advanced military projects that never see the light of day. It is not like the rich are really 'stealing' the wealth from any one class of America as most of their net worth is calculated through the speculation of price of owned corporate stock, and not actual money.

Which party is the one who dislikes social programs and wants to spend more on the military again?
 
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I missed the title of this thread. This should probably go here. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen in relation to this fiasco.
 
From Wikipedia (can't link to USDA since the site is shut down):

"Currently, WIC serves 53 percent of all infants born in the United States."

God, I guess 53 percent of mothers are worthless and irresponsible and had no business having children in the first place.

53% of mothers are irresponsible and have no business having children? I'd venture that percentage is even higher. Probably 3 in 4.
 
How is this going to directly help?.

The same way it has always worked.

You tax the rich and funnel the money into the lower classes. Direct aid is just one of the ways there are many tools available. The US used to do this until Reagan.

It helps because you give breathing room to the lower/middle class, they can save, provide good healthcare and education for their kids, etc etc. If parents can afford college education for kids, when they become adults they aren't saddled with massive college debts.

As I said, the US did a good job with it until trickle down economics. Tax cuts for the rich is the single most effective way to kill class mobility and the US own history shows that taxing the so-called "job creators" is actually better for the economy overall.
 
How is this going to directly help? Yes we need more money invested into the education system and other certain social service systems, but the problem here is not the total tax money coming in, it is that we choose to spend incoming money in irresponsible ways, things like earmarks and advanced military projects that never see the light of day. It is not like the rich are really 'stealing' the wealth from any one class of America as most of their net worth is calculated through the speculation of price of owned corporate stock, and not actual money.

The US has always had extravagant military projects, that's not the problem.

The problem is strangling the government by tax cuts and other measures. The entire republican agenda is not only a war on woman but a war on class mobility and hence a war on the lower and middle classes.
 
The more I understand how much the Tea Party does not give a shit about the well-being of anyone or anything but themselves in this ordeal, the more appealing it seems that Obama should use the 14th.

#usethe14th
 
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