US Federal Government Shutdown | Shutdown Shutdown, Debt Ceiling Raised

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Maninthemirror said:
Riots
Revolution

When the country demand where is the fed when before they blamed the fed for being too big the tea party will die

The longer this goes the further tea party will fall
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But they do have support (not the majority of course) but a significant number of voters WANT them to "fight the good fight".

I wonder if they will screw the debt ceiling too?

Could this lead to a coup in the name of "democracy"? With most of the country cheering such a coup on?
 
LegendofJoe said:
I know I'm not alone when I say that I'm happy that the President has finally dug his feet into the ground and is refusing to budge. In fact if I were in his shoes I'd take it to the next level and charge the orchestrators of the shutdown with seditious conspiracy. It's high past time we put the ignorant, destructive leaders of the Tea Party movement in their rightful place. They don't call it the bully pulpit for nothing.
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This is what I mean by my last comment. There is a fine line between calling someone a patriot and a traitor (usually depending on your political ideology). I can't help but wonder if this carries on for too long if we will see the executive branch flex it's muscles far past what the Constitution/law/etc grants it the right to do (again with most people cheering the executive branch on).

I say this as somebody who dislikes what the Republicans are doing.
 
Bamelin said:
But they do have support (not the majority but a significant number of voters WANT them to "fight the good fight".

I wonder if they will screw the debt ceiling too?
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What would you prefer to have happen in the event that the House fails to raise the debt ceiling?
 
Bamelin said:
But they do have support (not the majority but a significant number of voters WANT them to "fight the good fight".

I wonder if they will screw the debt ceiling too?

Could this lead to a coup in the name of "democracy"? With most of the country cheering such a coup on?
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think the centrist Republicans can hold out on the debt ceiling the way they have with the shutdown.

But God, I wish I could say that with any amount of certainty.
 
pigeon said:
What would you prefer to have happen in the event that the House fails to raise the debt ceiling?
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Should the executive branch circumvent the House via illegal means, it will justify (to them and their power base) everything they have been saying about Obama. It could also lead to very ugly civil strife.

Again I think the Republican Tea Party Members are in full idiot mode. With that said, you can't take a chunk of your government and brand them traitors due to ideological differences .... no matter if those ideologies are paralysing the government. Not unless you enjoy the road to an authoritative state where rights and rule of law mean nothing.
 
BertramCooper said:
I honestly don't think the centrist Republicans can hold out on the debt ceiling the way they have with the shutdown.

But God, I wish I could say that with any amount of certainty.
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Tea Party crazies would allow the U.S. to default completely before giving up on this Obamacare thing, I have no doubt.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.
 
BertramCooper said:
I honestly don't think the centrist Republicans can hold out on the debt ceiling the way they have with the shutdown.

But God, I wish I could say that with any amount of certainty.
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I actually think it will happen. When we were nearing the fiscal cliff, I thought that the GOP was just putting on a show for its constituents, showing that they would fight the evil Obama administration until the last minute before giving into reason. But then sequestration happened. With the shutdown, I thought, again, Republicans would put on their theater to satiate their base but ultimately cave before it happened. But again, the worst happened.

It's clearer than ever that the Tea Party is actually not playing a game that they'll abandon when push comes to shove, nor will they give into reason (much less know what the reasonable solution even is). They have their convictions, believe they're in the right no matter what, that Obama and the Democrats are in the wrong no matter what, and that - because the federal government is an evil institution that we're better off without - will allow any number of things to happen to get their way. Simply because they think they're David standing up to Goliath and because they frankly don't know any better.

So yeah, I totally expect the government to default, if only because many Republicans don't even know what that means.
 
Bamelin said:
This is what I mean by my last comment. There is a fine line between calling someone a patriot and a traitor (usually depending on your political ideology). I can't help but wonder if this carries on for too long if we will see the executive branch flex it's muscles far past what the Constitution/law/etc grants it the right to do (again with most people cheering the executive branch on).

I say this as somebody who dislikes what the Republicans are doing.
Click to expand...

That's usually what happens in a political system when one side cuts its nose to spite its face. If the Republican leadership were rational actors, they wouldn't be undermining themselves like this.
 
Blader said:
I actually think it will happen. When we were nearing the fiscal cliff, I thought that the GOP was just putting on a show for its constituents, showing that they would fight the evil Obama administration until the last minute before giving into reason. But then sequestration happened. With the shutdown, I thought, again, Republicans would put on their theater to satiate their base but ultimately cave before it happened. But again, the worst happened.

It's clearer than ever that the Tea Party is actually not playing a game that they'll abandon when push comes to shove, nor will they give into reason (much less know what the reasonable solution even is). They have their convictions, believe they're in the right no matter what, that Obama and the Democrats are in the wrong no matter what, and that - because the federal government is an evil institution that we're better off without - will allow any number of things to happen to get their way. Simply because they think they're David standing up to Goliath and because they frankly don't know any better.

So yeah, I totally expect the government to default, if only because many Republicans don't even know what that means.
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Even though he said he won't, I believe Obama will invoke the 14th before that happens. It will cause a legal mess afterwards but the alternative is worse.
 
Koomaster said:
It honestly sounds like this backpay business is going to be their next fight right before the debt ceiling. 'Oh yeah, we'll let you raise the debt ceiling, let us just attach this bill to it that says all those people we screwed over don't get back pay.' And then we have another big fight on our hands because they want to be unreasonable.

This really shouldn't be a hard question or even a question at all; these people deserve backpay. Why can't we just make that a law after all this, in the event of a gov't shutdown, all furloughed employees get back pay.

You are literally putting people out of jobs because you failed to do your own job. That's crazy that you would hem and haw about giving them backpay.
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Obama fucked up by singing the army pay bill, he lost all leverage there.
 
Don't know if this has been posted about the minority of house republicans who are now leading the show. It's a good read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/u...s-outflanks-the-house-leadership.html?hp&_r=0

Some interesting bits:
The conservatives remain resolute against compromises, even some embraced by Republican leaders. Representative John Fleming, Republican of Louisiana, said he could not accept a repeal of the health law’s tax on medical devices as a concession to reopen the government.

“That could be bad because it could improve a bad bill,” he said. “And while it’s a terrible tax, removing a tax to make what is really an atrocious bill to the economy slightly better, I’m not sure that’s a good idea."
Click to expand...
 
Bamelin said:
Should the executive branch circumvent the House via illegal means, it will justify (to them and their power base) everything they have been saying about Obama. It could also lead to very ugly civil strife.

Again I think the Republican Tea Party Members are in full idiot mode. With that said, you can't take a chunk of your government and brand them traitors due to ideological differences .... no matter if those ideologies are paralysing the government. Not unless you enjoy the road to an authoritative state where rights and rule of law mean nothing.
Click to expand...

That's very nice, but you completely failed to answer the question.

What would you prefer to have happen in the event that the House fails to raise the debt ceiling?
 
Listening to CSPAN feed, House GOP member is talking about not playing the political game to re-open a park. How fucking ironic.

GOP House members don't want to play the political game when it comes to opening a park, but for people to receive medical care and make a living, yeah, that's where the political game should be played.
 
Blader said:
I actually think it will happen. When we were nearing the fiscal cliff, I thought that the GOP was just putting on a show for its constituents, showing that they would fight the evil Obama administration until the last minute before giving into reason. But then sequestration happened. With the shutdown, I thought, again, Republicans would put on their theater to satiate their base but ultimately cave before it happened. But again, the worst happened.

It's clearer than ever that the Tea Party is actually not playing a game that they'll abandon when push comes to shove, nor will they give into reason (much less know what the reasonable solution even is). They have their convictions, believe they're in the right no matter what, that Obama and the Democrats are in the wrong no matter what, and that - because the federal government is an evil institution that we're better off without - will allow any number of things to happen to get their way. Simply because they think they're David standing up to Goliath and because they frankly don't know any better.

So yeah, I totally expect the government to default, if only because many Republicans don't even know what that means.
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I feel like this is what we're see. Ideologues who lack the ability to compromise. This is no way to govern.
 
j-wood said:
My problem with statements like this are that we are the ones who put these people into office.
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Define "we". It is a minority of the house republican conference that is causing most of this crap and they were elected in gerrymandered districts where enough people who think like them went out and voted. In total a very, very small minority of the American voting public actually voted to put these two dozen or so republicans in office. Yet they have the power within the republican party to shut down the government. The entire country is paying for the ignorance of a relative few.
 
BertramCooper said:
If I read one more inane Facebook post about how this is everyone's problem and everyone needs to come together to find a solution, I'm going to flip out.
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I think the dems (shocking, I know) are doing a piss poor job of messaging. They need to get more vocal about communicating the insanity rather than just assuming people will instinctively understand how insane this really is.
 
watershed said:
Don't know if this has been posted about the minority of house republicans who are now leading the show. It's a good read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/u...s-outflanks-the-house-leadership.html?hp&_r=0

Some interesting bits:
The conservatives remain resolute against compromises, even some embraced by Republican leaders. Representative John Fleming, Republican of Louisiana, said he could not accept a repeal of the health law’s tax on medical devices as a concession to reopen the government.

“That could be bad because it could improve a bad bill,” he said. “And while it’s a terrible tax, removing a tax to make what is really an atrocious bill to the economy slightly better, I’m not sure that’s a good idea."
Click to expand...
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So let me get this straight.
They won't take yes for an answer?
 
pigeon said:
That's very nice, but you completely failed to answer the question.

What would you prefer to have happen in the event that the House fails to raise the debt ceiling?
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As a Canadian I suppose I could say it's not my problem, although there will no doubt be economic repercussions felt across the globe.

So while I don't' have the answers to the debt ceiling question I also do not think throwing part of the government in jail/shooting as traitors /etc is a good idea in a country that is supposed to be the bastion of democracy and rule of law. Gerrymandering arguments aside these "troublemaker" republicans were elected legally and represent the wishes of their constituents. They are following the letter of the law.

There is a still a significant (albeit rapidly growing minority) of voters that are aligned with the far right's political ideology. It's been obvious for a long time to any non American (and maybe to Americans too) that The United States has a serious problem brewing in that the left and the right not only can't see eye to eye but are quickly coming to irreconcilable political ideological differences.

The last time that happened the country went to war with each other, although I believe this time around you'll see a bloodless suppression should the Tea Party folks take things too far with the debt ceiling. I find it scary though ... as authoritative rule might possibly be cheered on if some of the comments in this thread is any indication.
 
Krakn3Dfx said:
10/17.

If anyone wants to listen to the House feed, you can fire it up here. http://tunein.com/radio/C-SPAN-Radio-901-s28047/?streamid=1989818
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It would actually be a few days AFTER 10/17 that we'd be in danger of default on anything.

And, technically, we'll probably not run up into the debt ceiling now for a few more days because of the shutdown, so realistically we're looking at 10/19 before we HAVE to do something, and 10/21 before we default on anything.

That's, of course, just theory based on what happened last time.
 
maniac-kun said:
So what happens when the us defaults? No police on the streets?
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We won't be able to fund payments on international loans, value of the dollar and U.S. bonds will plummet, the list goes on. We've never defaulted in the history of the country, it's pretty much the unthinkable situation, and I imagine Obama would intervene with the Nuclear Option before that happened. Otherwise, we could very well look at ~30 GOP members in the House who got elected for the sole reason of dismantling the government actually dismantle the government.
 
Bamelin said:
As a Canadian I suppose I could say it's not my problem, although there will no doubt be economic repercussions felt across the globe.
Click to expand...

Yeah. So, basically, you don't even know what the actual ramifications will be, so naturally you're much more concerned about bizarre fascist counterfactuals that could conceivably happen if something that nobody is actually suggesting occurs, based on the fact that some people on an internet message board are using overheated rhetoric. Glad to have your input, neighbor!
 
I was listening to Fox News this morning, because I wanted to give myself an aneurism apparently, and someone was going on about how, in 2014, everyone is going to realize how shitty the ACA is and how toxic it is for Democrats and that the Republicans will win big time.

If being delusional was an Olympic sport, the GOP would have the medals on lock down.
 
Bamelin said:
As a Canadian I suppose I could say it's not my problem, although there will no doubt be economic repercussions felt across the globe.

So while I don't' have the answers to the debt ceiling question I also do not think throwing part of the government in jail/shooting as traitors /etc is a good idea in a country that is supposed to be the bastion of democracy and rule of law. Gerrymandering arguments aside these "troublemaker" republicans were elected legally and represent the wishes of their constituents. They are following the letter of the law.

There is a still a significant (albeit rapidly growing minority) of voters that are aligned with the far right's political ideology. It's been obvious for a long time to any non American (and maybe to Americans too) that The United States has a serious problem brewing in that the left and the right not only can't see eye to eye but are quickly coming to irreconcilable political ideological differences.

The last time that happened the country went to war with each other, although I believe this time around you'll see a bloodless suppression should the Tea Party folks take things too far with the debt ceiling. I find it scary though ... as authoritative rule might possibly be cheered on if some of the comments in this thread is any indication.
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I'm sorry, I may have missed this but were there a lot of calls for this in the thread?

pigeon said:
Yeah. So, basically, you don't even know what the actual ramifications will be, so naturally you're much more concerned about bizarre fascist counterfactuals that could conceivably happen if something that nobody is actually suggesting occurs, based on the fact that some people on an internet message board are using overheated rhetoric. Glad to have your input, neighbor!
Click to expand...

or just this. hmmmm.
 
Wilsongt said:
I was listening to Fox News this morning, because I wanted to give myself an aneurism apparently, and someone was going on about how, in 2014, everyone is going to realize how shitty the ACA is and how toxic it is for Democrats and that the Republicans will win big time.

If being delusional was an Olympic sport, the GOP would have the medals on lock down.
Click to expand...

My favorite new Fox News catch phrase is "Government Slimdown". Unbelievable.
 
maniac-kun said:
So what happens when the us defaults? No police on the streets?
Click to expand...
Economic doomsday. The US would be thrown back into recession for starters. We could probably cover entitlement programs and defense spending and interest on the debt, but everything else federal -- everything you can think of -- would shut down.

Long-term, the US's position as the safest investment in the world would be shot. Global financial collapse (again) might follow. It would affect the live of just about everyone on the planet.

Obama would probably use the 14th Amendment if it appeared there were no other options remaining, but if it got that bad the US's reputation would be shot anyway.
 
Krakn3Dfx said:
We won't be able to fund payments on international loans, value of the dollar and U.S. bonds will plummet, the list goes on. We've never defaulted in the history of the country, it's pretty much the unthinkable situation, and I imagine Obama would intervene with the Nuclear Option before that happened. Otherwise, we could very well look at ~30 GOP members in the House who got elected for the sole reason of dismantling the government actually dismantle the government.
Click to expand...

And the world economy too.

If it ever got to that point I would hope those ~30 gop members of the house would be forcibly removed from office and charged with terrorism.
 
pigeon said:
Yeah. So, basically, you don't even know what the actual ramifications will be, so naturally you're much more concerned about bizarre fascist counterfactuals that could conceivably happen if something that nobody is actually suggesting occurs, based on the fact that some people on an internet message board are using overheated rhetoric. Glad to have your input, neighbor!
Click to expand...

Wow just a wee bit on edge now?

I was curious to see what everyone thinks the consequences will be if the Tea Party crackpots refuse to budge on this (won't raise debt ceiling, keep government closed down, etc).

And yes I think it's a very real worry that the executive branch could step in and overextend it's powers if things went that far. Everything we've been reading so far seems like the House Republicans are willing to go "all the way". It will be interesting to see if their voter base/support crumbles the longer this thing goes on.
 
Some libertarian caller this morning on the radio and called it a slowdown. He said he felt it was probably needed. When asked about veterans benefits he commented that everyone here is adults. That he lost his job and had to deal with life well ... So should they.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
So Republicans want to trim down spending by revealing a law that would trim down spending.

Gotcha. Check. You're in the clear, Republicans.
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Oh, and they also want to trim spending by defaulting on loans that have already been taken out. Cause you save money by not paying back debt right?
 
JCizzle said:
I think the dems (shocking, I know) are doing a piss poor job of messaging. They need to get more vocal about communicating the insanity rather than just assuming people will instinctively understand how insane this really is.
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I think it has to do more with the mainstream media defaulting to their middle-of-the-road-at-all-times style of journalism even though Republicans have driven off the road and into a fucking gorge.

That Al Jazeera America editorial from yesterday nailed it.
 
MonkeyKing said:
One of the great achievements of the GOP has been convincing working people to argue against their own best interests.
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No. It's that people don't want to be responsible anymore. Everything should be handed to me because he or she got away with it. Pity me. Why don't you go and pay the bum down the street who cleaned your windows 1 time for a whole month's of work.
 
BertramCooper said:
I think it has to do more with the mainstream media defaulting to their middle-of-the-road-at-all-times style of journalism even though Republicans have driven off the road and into a fucking gorge.

That Al Jazeera America editorial from yesterday nailed it.
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Can't risk alienating half of your audience
 
marrec said:
Oh, and they also want to trim spending by defaulting on loans that have already been taken out. Cause you save money by not paying back debt right?
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To use their own insane household budget metaphors, Republicans think you save money when you cut up your credit card bill and hide it under the couch.
 
Shake Appeal said:
To use their own insane household budget metaphors, Republicans think you save money when you cut up your credit card bill and hide it under the couch.
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While it may not do anything to resolve the debt you've already accrued, it is the ONLY way to ensure that you (the compulsive spender) will not get yourself into the same predicament just as soon as you've handled the current crisis.


edit: I misread the quote I was responding to and thought we were talking about cutting up credit cards, and NOT credit card BILLS. I have been properly chastised for my transgression, though you are free to pile on if you feel your blood boiling and need an outlet.
 
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